Erich,
You just answered a .380 question on another thread and mentioned that you recommend ball ammo in the .380acp. Why not the Rem Golden Sabre which is heavier or the new 90 gr. Critical Defense? I sometimes carry an LCP and would like to hear your thoughts and any others from members with some experience with mouse guns. Thanks

Penetration.

Second the motion

Yep, penetration, as stated above.

Far be it from me to speak for Erich, but if you read the second part of his mantra, "penetration is queen", IIRC, you'll get a handle on his thoughts.

Typically, short barreled pocket semi-autos don't generate the velocity necessary to reliably expand hollow point bullets. Ergo, even with a hollow point, the bullet may well NOT expand. So, in essence, you're shooting a FNJ with a sometimes non-functioning hollow point profile.

Additionally, MOST pocket autos are PROBABLY a WEE BIT less likely to malfunction with FMJ rounds. MAYBE....... (I tried to work that last sentence so that 100 guys with pocket autos that have never malfunctioned with hollow point rounds will not feel compelled to inform us of such.)

YMMV.

dan

I'll be the decenting voice. Several hollowpoint loads will penetrate sufficiently. If a hollow point doesn't expand, it will work every bit as well as ball, perhaps better. If it does expand and penetrates well, it should have more wounding ability.

As far as 110 gr. .38+P goes, DPX penetrates fine.

As much as I hate to disagree with my friend flopshank, I just have a different opinion on this one.

So, I've worked in some capacity on a couple dozen killings with .380s, and a few more .380 shootings in which no one was killed. I've seen three instances of .380 JHPs (Hydra-shoks and Golden Sabers, IIRC) failing to adequately penetrate - and this actually represents the majority of the .380 JHP cases I've seen (I think there were a couple others, but I've seen many more shootings with ball in this caliber). Now, in those failures, one guy lived after being shot three times (once in the head, once in the chest and once in the ***), though another guy was killed by the same .380 Hydra-Shok used in that shooting. In the other case, the JHPs (I'm pretty sure they were GSs) failed to penetrate various barriers, but both guys were later killed with execution-style headshots with the same rounds.

Based on what I've seen, it is very common for a bullet to need to penetrate an arm or some similar barrier before it can get to the vitals at which it was aimed. Slow, light bullets (and, yes, 95-grains at under 1k fps is slow and light in my opinion) like those put out by the .380 don't seem to do well when hollowpoint "brakes" are utilized.

Over the course of the 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on (and taking into account my sometimes unique ability to get the detailed afterstory from the shooter himself), I've come to the belief that, to be assured of stopping, one must put hits on vital structures (brain/spinal cord or heart/aorta) of an aggresssor. I don't see how .380 JHPs add to a shooting's effectiveness, but I've seen a high percentage of instances in which they detracted from it. I wouldn't use .380 JHPs - not that they can't work, just that I've seen too many cases (for my comfort level) in which they failed to work. They'd be great for putting down a wounded horse, however (there was just a thread on this, so the thought is fresh in my mind) - or other execution-style or perfectly unimpeded-to-the-vitals shots. The realities of force-on-force combat render the availability of such shots something on which we would be foolish to depend.

That said, I've never seen a case in which .380 ball failed to adequately penetrate. I know an experienced pathologist we used as an expert who carries .380 ball . . . and he completely agrees with me on the essentiality of targeting vital structures and not just "center of mass" with handguns. (Gray's Anatomy is online: Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body . Study it.)

In fact, I've worked on one shooting in which a .380 ball round (out of a relatively long barrel) overpenetrated and injured an unintended victim (Rule 4, people). Now I've seen a whole lot of .380 ball rounds not overpenetrate, but this shows how Mas is right when he warns us to consider the dangers of overpenetration, even with mousegun rounds. (I have to say that I've wondered a bit whether the .380 might not just be the perfect storm of perhaps-too-penetrative in a ball round and not-sufficiently-penetrative in a JHP. Given the similarity of the ballistics, I wonder the same thing about the 9x19Mak. Those blowback calibers are sure not 9x19 ball, though, which is pretty much guaranteed to overpenetrate.)

Alas, I'm not with friend flopshank on the 110-gr .38s, either. I'd simply never use such unless I were in dire straits and that was all that was available. But I'm glad that we can all be friends nevertheless.

Third the motion.

380 hollowpoints are not reliable expanders anyway.
You need all the penetration that you can get with mouse
guns. Thats why people in the know avoid the 110 gr JHP in the
38 spl even. The 380 is less than a hot 110gr 38, and they are notorious
for insufficient penetration. Ball is more reliable in pocket guns also and
is much cheaper. If I was carrying a 25,32,380, it would have nothing
but the heaviest full metal jacket I could get in it. Shot placement
is key, not wonder bullets. My humble opinion, if you need a mouse
gun, get a 38 snub.

One well placed shot trumps spray and pray

I haven't shot anything with a .380 except paper and reactive targets but I carry ball precisely because of concern about sufficient penetration in this caliber. I have chronographed a few ball rounds from the Keltec P3at. Surprisingly velocities are higher than one might expect from the stubby little barrel. I haven't laid hands on any Buffalo Bore-Arguably their hardcast flat point may be best in the .380 if it feeds well......I carry plain old Remington UMC. It chronos 900-1000+ fps out of my P3at...most rounds cross the chrony in the upper 900s. Independence(Federal) averages about 100fps slower.

While I'm not Erich and have neither the criminal experience nor deadly force use experience I wouldn't use the 38spl with 110gr bullets either as a self defense bullet.

I have read a bit and I get my information from some FBI information when they tried that weight bullet in the 357Mag. It seemed to be the answer to their problem of more firepower until the auto glass started being reinforced with plastic, commonly known as safety glass.

It seemed that these "super bullets" would to one of two things when encountering either barrier. They either glanced off and went careening off to point unknown, something none of us can afford in a shooting, or splattered uselessly in the glass without penetrating it.

It would seem to me that that wasn't a very good tool to use to defend oneself. No, give me a heavy bullet going at moderate speeds, over 800fps at least.

IMO, the 40S&W with a 180gr bullet going just over 1000fps is the ticket. That's just me though!

YMMV

Treeman, keep your P3AT away from Buffalo Bore .380 +P loads. They are too hot for the little plastic fantastics to handle.

Hi Erich;

Bo and I chronographed some Santa Barbara ammunition which clocked 1032 fps from the P3AT. This ammunition was imported in quantity a few years back. It gave every impression of being loaded very hot.

I bought up a bunch of it for practice use because it was cheap ($2.25 per 25 rnd. box) but didn't shoot all that much of it due to its vigorous nature.

Only my opinion but the locked breach design of the P3AT probably handles this type ammunition better than would a blow-back design.




If I tote a .380 I avoid all expanding type ammunition. The round is what it is and seems best employed to maximize penetration to the vitals.

Yeah, buddy! That would be a standout, wouldn't it? Those were some hot Spanish rounds - pity they're hard to find nowadays. I agree with your thinking on the probable durability of the P3AT/LCP with the locked-breech design.

Some great chrono data linked here, BTW, but you have to dig around through some bad links for it:

Ammunition and Ballistics at mouseguns.com

Aw! another confirmation as to why I gave up my .380s for the second time. They carry so nice but I am not sure they can do the job.

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Gun Safety is no accident.

It appears that I have a 'fast' P3at. Anyone who does a lot of chronographing has probably noted nontypical for caliber firearms-and it isn't just revolvers with varying barrel/cylinder gaps. Chamber dimensions, bore dimensions and finishand firing pin shape and strike energy can all combine to slightly enhance or degrade performance from "normal".........So even more than before I think "ball" is the way to go in tiny .380s

Gotta love that - I have a "fast" Sigma, myself!

Erich,

I was reading this thread and others a but I unfortunately do not know your area of experience or profession . Would you shed some light on that for those of us who do not know??
Just curious and if it is not something you want to post, I understand .
Thanks

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Still Running Against the Wind

I've worked on these cases briefly (a couple of years) as a private investigator for a criminal defense lawyer when I was in law school and as a prosecutor (a bit over a year), and since then as appellate defense counsel (since '95). For several years there I also worked closely with the trial capital defense unit (a centralized unit that handled the majority of the potential first-degree murder cases in the state). Because my office handles almost all of them, I wind up working in some capacity (consulting or as assigned counsel) on most of my state's appeals of killing convictions.

Thanks, sounds interesting. At first I thought you were in the Medical field.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Erich:

Thank you for your very good information and advice on the .380 ACP. I had been carrying the Golden Saber in my P3AT, but upon reading your advice, I just now switched it out for the WWB flat point FMJ's, which it has shot reliably with in the past. My P3AT had problems with the AE FMJ, so I won't carry it. I have some Prvi Partisan FMJ but I haven't tested it yet. So, I'm now loading with the WWB. Hopefully it will get the job done, should I ever need it. It is a tertiary weapon, so the odds are against needing it, thankfully!

Oh, and to drift the thread a little, I also carry the 135 gr. Speer SB load in my 442-2. That's my secondary/weak side gun, with a Kel-Tec PF-9 loaded with 147 gr. standard pressure HST as my primary. Someday I hope to replace it with a Glock 26 or 27.

Keep up the good work!

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Buy American!

Man, I hope that you never need to draw your third gun, too! Yikes!

Glad my thoughts were of interest. I suspect that overpenetration is probably not going to be much of a concern (given proper shot-placement) with the Winchester flat-point ball out of your P3AT. Always remember Rule Four, though - just in case!

Erich I took you advise and was ordering the 38 wadcutters from Buffalo Bore and I saw these loads for a 380. I have never shot any +P loads in my Kel Tec 3pat but these loads seem to penetrate very well I was just wondering if you were familiar with these and which do you think would be the best load for the Kel Tec?

1.Item 27A/20 is a 100gr. HARD cast bullet with a flat nose. It is traveling over 1,150 fps out of my 3.75 inch BDA (Browning Double Action).
2.Item 27B/20 is the very same load as 27A above, but it uses a 95 gr. FMJ-FN (Full metal jacket-flat nose) bullet. We designed it for folks who simply don't like hard cast bullets
3.Item 27C/20 is a 90gr. Jacketed Hollow Point bullet and is the only hollow nosed expanding bullet we trust to expand reliably, yet penetrate deep enough to be lethal on a drugged up, pain free attacker. It is traveling over 1,200 fps out of my BDA (Browning Double Action) with its 3.75 inch barrel.

I'm sorry, M41: I just don't know. I suppose it would depend on how fast they traveled out of your gun (and, as we've seen on this thread, there can be quite a spread in how fast a given round will travel out of even the same model of autopistol). The concerns, of course, are that you want something that will function flawlessly in your gun and that will give accurate placement, and you don't want something that will overpenetrate or that won't penetrate sufficiently.

You know, the only time I've ever messed with greater-than-average-powered .380s were the Double Tap rounds that I mentioned up-thread. I can tell you that they did not function reliably in my SIG-Sauer P232 (not a real surprise: blowback guns are designed to function with rounds of a certain range of oomph, and these rounds were likely outside that range) or my friend's Kel-Tec P3AT (which surprised me, since it was a locked-breech gun). (This was a disappointment, as I'd spent a decent little chunk of cash on obtaining 100 rounds of the DT loading as soon as it was released.)

So, my first concern would be whether the various Buffalo Bore loads (definitely outside the mundane envelope of .380 performance) would function reliably in your gun. The second concern that would have to be addressed before I'd carry them is whether they would they be likely to overpenetrate out of your gun. Only if I were satisfied on the first two points would I worry about underpenetration.

The problem is that I just can't predict any of these things - sorry.

Great thread. My meager contribution is that the FBI has never (at least in the last 40 years or so) issued .380s to regular street agents.

There were .380s in the inventory for issue to guys working undercover who want a "non-cop" type gun. I knew a guy who carried a PPK, and the ammo issued with it was Silvertip hollowpoint. That was years ago - with so many bad guys carrying Glocks there's no real "cop guns" these days, anyway.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

25 years in LE has caused me to rethink my position on the 380ACP. Personally, I feel the 380 is at its best in the KelTec or Ruger sized guns and should only be carried when it is impossible to carry something bigger, or as a 2nd or 3rd gun. It beats having nothing, but that's about it IMO.

BTW, if I carried one I would go with standard factory ammo from the larger companies and not mess with the "+P" stuff. Extra recoil, reduced reliability, and increased wear on the weapon are all I can see coming from the use of those.

I spoke to Kel Tec this morning concerning +P ammunition in the 380. My owners manual says it will accept +P ammunition, however not with continuous use. The gentleman I spoke to says that really means the gun can shoot 6 rounds of +P and that is all, and then it would probably become a single shot pistol, so I am still looking for a good round for pentration and expansion.

Lt. sir, I agree that +P is a waste of time, but the increase in velocity does turn the excellent .380 Gold Dot (the best I've tested, but still a marginal expander) into an almost guaranteed expander. There was a difference and it was impressive. Too bad the P3AT isn't up to them, and yes, they are slower on follow up shots and control.

Guys it's a long weekend. I'll get all my .380 results posted in the Perma-Gel thread.

M41, I had the best results with Speer Gold Dot. That's what I carried until I cooked up a clone.

Erich, I use Power Pistol to fuel that clone. It burns much cleaner than Herco or Unique and meters much better.

KS, I'm looking forward to reading what you learn.

Ok, I’m going to wade into this one and you can take it for what it’s worth.

I own a Colt 380 Government Model, the full sized one with 3.25 inch barrel. This being a shrunken 1911 I thought I might be able to improve its performance. What I have settled on is this load:

Lee 120 grain Truncated Cone bullet cast of wheel weights sized to .355 and lubed in a Lyman 45 luber/sizer.

4.6 grains of Alliant Power Pistol.

This load is chronographed at 951 fps 10 feet from the muzzle. The math says this is 241 foot pounds of energy.

Compare that to what Winchester shows on their website for a 38 Special +P 125 grain JHP at 948 fps and 248 foot pounds.

I have not tested for penetration but plan to in the near future.

Attached Images

	380 Project 006.jpg (110.9 KB, 145 views)
	380 Project 023.jpg (104.7 KB, 179 views)

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KSCowboy

That's a carry combo I'd love to have, though I'd want to know about the penetration results first. Sounds really interesting.

Loading for the .380 was why I first bought Power Pistol (I've come to really like it in a number of other calibers as well) - it does seem to give the best velocity numbers in the .380.

Erich,

I'm going to take it to the farm this weekend and test in gallon water jugs. Along with a 44 Special self defense load that I want to test the same way (but that will be addressed in a separate thread.

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KSCowboy

Just for kicks, you might run the same test with 9x19 ball.

A local dealer mentioned today that he is expecting 40 boxes of Win Ranger .380s (Talons). Any info on this round would be appreciated. I did a quick search and didn't come up with much info.

Road trip to Florida anyone?

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

Guess it depends on how far away you are to begin with. From Utah - round trip - that would be pretty pricey ammo!

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Don't need no stinkin' sigline

Brad, just checked my notes on the DT .380 malfs that I experienced back in July '07 - several hard primers that required multiple strikes to ignite and a couple of jams on feeding in both the P232 and P3AT. Might have been a bad batch, but the jams on feeding were power-related.

BigRich315: I am always up fpr a road trip to Florida, but I'll pass on the ammo!

Florida J-Frame: As much as I like the Ranger T's in 9, 40, & 45, I'll pass on them in .380. Winchester's own data shows them penetrating 7in. in bare gel, 8in. in 4ply denim, and 7.8in. in heavy cloth. Their data shows approximately .64-.68 expansion, which is pretty good, but that's not nearly enough penetration to suit me.

No big deal since it was only employed as practice ammo but, in firing a box of 50 rounds of Sellier & Bellot .380, I had a couple that required a second strike in my P3AT when I practiced with it last week.

I just found some useful .380/P3AT test results at www.goldenloki.com . Too bad they didn't include heavy cloth in their testing.

I think the Fiocchi Extrema is worthy of note. My hunch is that the bullet expanded, but the petals were folded back to the front when it tumbled backwards. I've seen that happen before. Had it not expanded, my hunch is that it would have penetrated deeper.

Very interesting, thanks for the link. I was interested to see the Gold Dot and Critical Defense rounds' performance. The performance from their GD differs from what I have previously seen, having decent penetration and deformation. Maybe it's due to their test protocol. IMO bare gelatin tests are not worth the time it takes to conduct them. The link states their test protocol includes 2 layers of denim, if they would have used 4 layers I believe the results would have been much different, and more comparable to others I've seen. With time and money limited, the last few times we tested duty ammo we cut to the chase and only used the auto glass (windshield) and the 4 layer denim protocols.

Ball is about the only .380 I have seen have acceptable penetration in the denim testing. No hollowpoint, one that actually expands anyway, makes 12 inches in my experience. Like Erich and others have said the .380, while very popular, has poor terminal performance; it either expands and has insufficent penetration , or has sufficient penetration (unless it strikes significant structures in the body) and pokes a very small hole. It's best to carry a larger caliber if at all possible.

Lt., I agree about the larger caliber, and thank you for pointing out what I'd missed regarding the test protocol being two layer denim. I hadn't scrolled down far enough and assumed that they shot bare gel.

Myself, I'm generally more interested in four layer test results since I really like to try to make the bullet fail. Bare gel is cool because it exposes the bullet to the other end of the spectrum where expansion should be the most violent and shows how consistent it's behavior is. Two layer is fish nor fowl IMO, but it was interesting to see that their results were consistent with mine when I used four layers of denim. I'm not a cop so I don't test with auto glass. I do, however, take comfort in the fact that Gold Dots are bonded.

In my tests, Golden Loki's and, IIRC, www.stoppingpower.net 's, Speer Gold Dot was good for 12"+ every time, four layer, or bare.

Well I got out to the farm and here are the results of the testing I did. I had a couple other things in 38 Special and 44 Special that I wanted to test but ran out of water jugs.

Attached is a picture of the box I built to hold the water jugs, it holds a total of 16 jugs. I shot from 10 feet away, the same distance that I chronograph from. Temperature was 70 degrees.

.380 handload of 4.6 grains Alliant Power Pistol with a Lee 120 grain Truncated Cone at 951 fps. Penetrated 10 jugs and stuck into #11. The bullet was holding #10 & #11 together.

.380 factory load, PMC 90 grain FMJ at 855 fps. The bullet passed through 4 jugs and penetrated the 5th, was lying inside the 5th jug.

9mm factory load, Winchester 115 FMJ at 1149 fps. I didn’t have any factory FMJ 9mm on hand and found this load at Bass Pro Shops. I selected it as the bullet was almost identical to my cast Lee 120 grain TC. Bullet penetrated 9 jugs and exited the bottom rear corner of the 9th jug and was found laying in the box next to the rear corner of the 10th jug.

The pictures left to right show the cast Lee 120 grain TC, PMC 90 grain FMJ, and the Winchester 115 grain TC.

My conclusion is that the handload has too much penetration. What do you all think?

Attached Images

	380 Project Pen 003.jpg (113.9 KB, 150 views)
	380 Project Pen 006.jpg (109.0 KB, 146 views)
	380 Project Pen 009.jpg (93.3 KB, 164 views)
	380 Project Pen 010.jpg (79.5 KB, 196 views)
	380 Project Pen 014.jpg (52.6 KB, 171 views)

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KSCowboy

Maybe this will become my wild pig load! No, just kidding.

I have another load that I'm going to try next. It is the same 4.6 grains of Power Pistol behind a 124 grain Rainier Plated HP. It chronographs at 870 fps.

I'm going to try it on bare jugs like I did here and then with a layer of T-shirt and Denim.

I better get to drinking water this week if I want to test it out next weekend!

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KSCowboy

I'd be very curious to see how that would work. Do you have OAL problems using the 124-gr hp?

I haven't had an OAL issue with the Raniers.

I don't have any 124 gr Gold Dots. I have some 115 grain Gold Dots and some 115 grain Silvertips.

What do you think about those? The reason I loaded the Raniers originally was that I thought they would be softer and might expand at 380 velocity as opposed to the Gold Dots and Silvertips. Also that the pressure would be lower with the Raniers as they are plated lead bullets rather than jacketed. Although I wonder if Gold Dots are sort of the same as the Raniers.

I guess only testing will tell.

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KSCowboy

Your logic makes perfect sense to me. You just stated everything that occurred to me after I thought about your 124-gr HP proposition. As you state, the proof will be in the pudding . . . I'm really interested in hearing the results of this next experiment.

Keep drinking that water!

KSCowboy, I agree with Erich, I think your thinking is on the right track using plated lead Rainiers.

Where did you get your load data? My Modern Reloading manual lists 4.8 gr. as a max load for a 90 gr. XTP. Even though you're running a plated lead bullet, not jacketed, 4.6 gr. seems like a lot for a bullet that heavy. I could just as easily be wrong (and hope I am, this is cool). Are you getting signs of high pressure?

Also, what kind of gun did you use?

I know I'm but I just received some Double Tap .380 and am enthused by Flop-Shank's results with XTP bullets along with the advertised velocity of these rounds (I though I saw previously that they chrono slightly slower). I plan to test them and about 8 different .40 rounds tomorrow for function and accuracy.

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

Hi Rich (Newport, eh - I remember seeing Black Flag there in '84!),

I think that the DT would be very interesting with the hollowpoints - I'd be curious to see your results. I might even be tempted to buy some more (for my new LCP) if they looked good. Their .40, BTW, was really wonderful.

Rich, my Kel-tec hates cone shaped bullets such as the XTP, but loves the rounded ogive of Gold Dots. I'm looking forward to seeing what you post after you've tested.

You know, I think I've managed to forget to post this here - I chrono'd some .380 from a Ruger LCP this weekend at the Albuquerque City Range, 5950 feet above sea level, 78° F:

Winchester white box 95-gr flat-point ball
Mean 900.2 fps/extreme spread 31.47 fps/standard deviation 11.87 feet per second

Federal 95-gr ball
M 851.0/ES 28.05/SD 9.94

Remington 95-gr ball
M 890.6/ES 39.06/SD 15.19

Fiocchi 95-gr ball
M 808.7/ES 63.96/SD 26.15