Animal Control?

In my last post, we called Animal Control. Twice! They said they were too busy. A week later the attacking dog attacked and killed a dog and bit the owners face.

Thye only reason to call Animal Control is to pick up the dogs body.

Time bomb waiting to explode. Your dog knows she can manipulate you and escape. She has shown aggressive behavior. How long before those licks turn to bites? I know, she "wouldn't hurt a flea."

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Georgia On My Mind

Been bit twice. Guess what the owner said? You guessed it.

"He doesn't bite"

When I was in college in Fulton, MO in the '70s, a guy in one of the dorms kept a large black lab. Apparently he found it amusing to give the dog LSD. This gave "Grover" a Jeckyll/Hyde personality. One minute he'd walk up and sniff you, the next he'd come back and try to kill you. It chased several of us in an adjacent dorm, including me. It finally chased the wrong guy. This friend of mine had been mauled by a dog as a child. He went back to his dorm room, grabbed a .58 Zouave rifle, a Navy Colt and a cavalry saber and went looking for "Grover". Luckily for "Grover" he didn't find him.

We complained to the school and Animal Control. Animal Control sent a woman out with A LENGTH OF CLOTHESLINE to collect "Grover". We instantly told her that was a BAD idea. She ignored us. "Grover" walked up to her, she tried to put the rope on and he tried to kill her. She left, never to return. The school told the owner to get the dog off of campus. We told him that if it chased anybody else, it was getting shot and he was going to have a bad day too. He professed to have taken the dog off campus, but strangely there was occasionally a dog bowl to be seen outside of his door.

Ever since, I've had nothing but contempt for people who let their dogs run loose to endanger others as if somehow the rest of us are just chew toys.

Yep - that's the other side of the coin. I have an 11th month old Great Dane who is sweet as pie. She's about 125 lbs and is scary to some people who are not used to big dogs.

She pulled out of her collar in the front yard the other day and ran up to a couple walking their little dogs across the street. I do have her in training, but she's not perfect yet and sometimes does not listen.

The couple about peed their pants. My fault for her pulling out of the collar and her not listening to me, but I would really hate for someone to shoot her in that situation.

Pretty dog and pretty girl, chp! You've reminded me of something that irks hell out of me: People who don't know how to act around dogs, and who don't teach their kids how to act around dogs, but rather to just be afraid of them. I have some in-laws who taught their kids to be afraid of any large dog, and it just drives me nuts!

Several years ago, I represented a landlord when he was sued in a wrongful death lawsuit. His tenant had kept two pit bulls, belonging to the tenant's brother, chained in the back yard, unbeknownst to the landlord, without sufficient food. (The landlord probably should have known the dogs were there, but claimed he did not, wishing to rely on the "no pets" provision in the lease. Not the brightest client I ever had) One morning, an 86 year old woman was taking her morning walk, and the dogs got loose and attacked her. They literally tore huge chunks of flesh from her arms and legs, and but for neighbors and EMTs who arrived quickly, they'd have finished her off on the spot. No one had a gun, and someone with a shovel was finally able to fend the dogs off until some animal control people showed up and captured them The lady never lost consciousness during or after the attack, but died 43 days later from septicemia. Yes, my client's insurance carrier paid big bucks to settle that one.

Point? Well, I encourage all my CHL students to carry EVERYWHERE, and I won't hesitate to shoot if I have to. I saw the pictures of the sweet old lady, with pieces of flesh the size of canned hams missing from her arms and legs, and I might hesitate even less now than I would have before that.

Mercy! It's easy to forget how dangerous "pet" dogs can be.

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Centennial Every Day

Don't call animal control around here. They tell you that they will come get the animal if you catch it. If I catch it, they won't have to WORRY about coming to get it. Why do I have to do their job for them? As far as that pit that the OP shot at, I would have killed the *******. Those dogs have a known aggressive nature. A warning shot to me makes no sense, canine or human. My weapon should NOT be drawn OR fired as a method of intimidation. If that dog latched my jeans leg and turned loose, I would have viewed that as my opportunity to not only put some distance between me and the dog, but also an opportunity to draw and fire at the animal, and put it down for good. I realize that PO'd neighbors are not a good thing, but the very idea of letting a DOG kill me in my own yard when I have the means to put a stop to it EVER happening again just repulses me. My Dad and I have this argument a lot when we talk about it happening on a walk in our subdivision. Sorry, but I'm gonna win if at all possible, and use every means necessary to do so, and try to do it as safely as possible. I may have to deal with some consequences later, but it beats taking a long dirt nap because of some idiot's negligence.

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MARK

There is a new show on Discovery Channel tonight...Worst-Case Scenario.

Previews indicate there will be a segment on surviving an attack by a dog(s.)

I daresay the suggested technique(s) will NOT involve busting a cap in Old Yeller, Cujo, Fido, or whatever other canine is involved. Frankly, I suspect the technigue will not involve use of a firearm in any manner; could be wrong, though.

I shall report back, ASAP...

Be safe.

If it hasn't been said before, I would have shot the dog. Once that round leave the gun, that round could go bouncing around and hit something that you don't want it to hit.

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

When I was a Fire Chief, we responded to a 62 year old male possibly having a heart attack. WHen I rolled up on the scene, the guy was setting on his front porch. All the while we were treating him, there was a dog inside barking like crazy, Mean barking.

We loaded him in the Ambulance and he said "Hay Chief, would you please let my dog out of the house?" I said sure thing buddy, but he sure sounds mean. The guy said, "Because he IS mean."

Oh Great....

I sent the rest of my Department back to quarters and it left me and my Station Captain. We walked up to the door and the dog was giving it hell. I pulled out my Glock 22 and my Captain asked if I was going to shoot it.

I told him.."Only if he grabs ahold of me, then I am going to let him have it."

I opened the door like Clint Eastwood did in the movie Outlaw Josie Wales did when he was at the trading post.

The big black mean *** barking dog was standing in the middle of the kitchen. He turned, tucked tail and ran to another room. I locked and shut the door and walked away. My Captain said "You ain't going to let him out." I said....Its your turn now. If you want him, go drag him out.

We drove away.

WC

"I radio'd the ambulance and told them to tell the guy that his dog was uncooperative and we left him inside." They said he laughed.

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.357 Magnum - 8 Times

I go to great lengths to avoid killing things unless I plan to eat them. I think that you did the right thing. You avoided all of the hassles that come from destroying somebody's property. People sue over everything these days and although you might have very likely prevailed in a civil suit, think of the money it might have cost you in attorney fees, lost time at work, etc.
Have no second thoughts.

You know, I can appreciate your consideration and compasion, but sometimes it just needs killing to make the problem go away. The original poster has just scared the dog off this time so it can hassle it's next victim . . . which might be a kid or some nice defenseless lady.

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- Change it back -

I am glad you didn't shoot the dog . If I was the owner I would be so ashamed and grateful that you didn't kill him when you appeared to be justified , that I would do what ever it took to get the animal out of the vicinity and make every effort to make you aware I knew you are a kind and brave person . I hope he tries to be the kind of neighbor you are .. Pit bulls need love and attention and absolute control . Absentee pack leader does not get it with Pits . They can not be left unattended in neighborhoods . If the owner does not take immediate , like already did it to get the animal away to guarantee you never see it again , he does not deserve such a wonderful animal .

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Idaho , Elmer and Milt

Man, this has been a really good thread. I like reading everyone's opinions and it gets me thinking again about what I would do.

I'm a real estate appraiser and have spent many years walking around neighborhoods with a clipboard, measuring tape and camera, with a pistol somewhere on me. Early on, I was talking with a k9 officer who told me that the easiest thing to use was the flat side of my clipboard. He said stand your ground and hold it out so it is flat to the dog's nose. It will mess up his depth perception when he lunges and will just hit his nose on the clipboard. That should give me time to find an alternative. I only had to do that once. It worked well and gave me time to get my hand on my gun before the owner called him off. On another occasion, I had a 2,000 pound bull jump a fence while I was measuring a barn. Needless to say, I dropped the clipboard, tape and camera, forgot about the gun, and ran like hell!

We've had several neighbors with "problem" dogs. One had three English bulldogs (I have one), one of which was very aggressive. It attacked several neighbors and dogs before being taken away and put down. Luckily no one was seriously hurt, and the owner paid the vet and medical bills in all cases, from what I've heard.

Another was a released child molester who somehow ended up in the house behind me, separated by only a wood privacy fence. He had two trained attack Rottweilers that he used for intimidation, having been run out of several neighborhoods previously. He and his girlfriend would walk their dogs every morning, and had total control over them. I was very impressed. However, every time I ran the weed eater along the fence line, both dogs would charge the fence, and even broke through one time. A quick smack on the nose with the 5,000 rpm weed eater took care of that. Luckily, their house was foreclosed on and they were forced to move without serious incidents, with the dogs. (He did get a good look at my AR15 one day when he peeked his head over the fence while my daughters were in the pool.)

I guess my reaction would be based on the factors at that time. I have no problem with shooting a dog if I feel threatened, but at the same time I think retreat would be my first choice. I always look out for potential threats when I get in/out of the truck, go out, etc. I carry a walking stick when we walk the neighborhood, a 6D cell mag-lite and SureFire light at night, and usually my Kel-Tec in the pocket. But every time I've had a dog come up on me, it was very sudden and unexpected. I guess I look more for human threats than canine, or bovine. Curiously, I was looking at the bull when he started his charge. It took him all of 2 seconds to get to the fence, he was in the air for a good 30 seconds (I swear!), then everything was a blur until I reached the barn door.

Anyway, enjoyed reading all posts. Hope I never have to pull my gun on anything but paper.

Unfortunately by my observation, people who allow their animals to go after people tend to either not care what their animals do, or actually LIKE to frighten others.

Vicious dogs are often a status symbol for stupid people and especially stupid criminals. Expecting them to be responsible in that ONE narrow aspect of their lives when the other 99% is a train wreck, is simply not reasonable.

I like dog's as much as the next guy, but just like there are people that need to be shot, there also are dogs that need to be shot. Some dogs aren't in the least bit nice or friendly and are a complete menace to society. Do not confuse them with the sweetheart dogs that you have known and loved.

Last dogs I shot were three mutts trying to rip open the sack of a cow that was calving. An SAA in .44 WCF was all I had handy but it killed two of them and I heard the third yelp but failed to anchor him. Never reported anything, never heard more about it.

And to this I will add, if you let your dog run free and it puts other people in reasonable fear of being bitten, their ONLY duty is to protect themselves and their loved ones. They have no duty to either be dog psychologists or animal control officers. They don't have ANY duty to know whatever arcane techniques for nonlethal animal control that you THINK you know. Expecting total strangers to put themselves at risk by assuming that your threatening dog is "harmless" is the height of arrogance and narcissism.

Do not pretend to care about your animals if YOU create the circumstances by which others feel that they must harm them in order to protect themselves and their famlies.

You and Cesar Milan are right . It is always the people .

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Idaho , Elmer and Milt

In this situation I believe you handled it perfectly. With no initial injury you used minimal force and ended the altercation. The biggest thing is that there is now a record of the dog being agressive. God forbid this happens again, there is a better case for ridding the neighborhood of a real danger

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

This post has been an interesting read. Even brothers in law enforcement have posted varying replies.
In the city in which I worked, pit bulls were so prevalent, the city council adopted an ordinance with requirements for proof of liability insurance, standards for fencing, cages, signing on the home, etc. The county also has a leash law. Most law abiding citizens tried their best to comply. The drug dealers and gangs kept unlicensed pits loose in the houses. Illegal dog fights were held, and often the injured animals received no veterinary treatment. Almost weekly, officers were put in situations where pits were involved. Infrequently, some were deliberately set upon officers and had to be shot.
You did what you believed was best for you in the few seconds you had to make a decision. I was pleased to read the police were contacted immediately. Starting a paper trail on the offending owner was important in the aftermath and for the future should it become necessary to cite/prosecute the dog's owner.

I don't care what kind/type/size/species of animal or who owns it that tries to attack me or cause me or my loved ones harm- the threat will be neutralized.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

We had a neighbors dog come through the screen on our sliding door one summer and our shepard proceeded to let it know how un-welcome it was. We separated to dogs and I drug the neighbors dog back to their house shotgun in hand to inform them that if this happened again the problem would be solved with buckshot.

These same neighbors also claim that our dog once tried to attack their son. The rope it was tied out on while I was working outside broke and the dog went after him if was about 20 ft long and I was able to grab it before the dog got near him. A few weeks later and a new beefier rope I heard my dog carrying on and looked out from the shed to see him on his hind legs barking toward my neighbors, then I see the neighbor boy hiding were his parents can't see him throwing a ball in the air saying here kitty kitty. I took my dog in and proceeded to tell my neighbors that their son was out back teasing my 150lb Shepard. This kid is not that bright, but wasn't been a problem after that. Max my Shepard has since passed on.

Just because missed you with a bite, is no reason you should miss him..

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NRA Life Member and Instructor

In any situation, none of will ever know what would have happened if we did the 'other thing'.
We may look back and say what we did do was right/wrong/whatever. Think about it, learn from it, but don't worry about it.
You did several things right. 1) you were armed 2) you were legal 3)you took action 4) you called it in.
Good onya
Be well
Tom B

Then you could understand someone shooting your dog, since it sometimes gets out.

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Hook686

But you can understand it ... right ?

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Hook686

I have shot aggressive dogs in my yard in the past and would have shot that one.

We had a pit bull set up housekeeping in our back flower bed one summer at our rural residence. My two boys were very small. I made the mistake of trying to run it off the first time. It behaved aggressively. After it was gone I began to regret that I didn't put it down.

It returned the next day to the wallow it had made. I shot it with a 10 gauge shotgun loaded with magnum buckshot.

Unconfined dogs at rural residences may appear to be harmless and innocent, lounging in the shade of the porch during the day, but they will pack up together and roam, especially at night. Livestock may be lost.

I've shot dogs for running cattle too.

A local friend recently lost a bunch of his goats to three dogs from various neighboring places. Some thoughtless peoples' irresponsibility and negligence with their own pets amazes me.

We now live in town. Don't get me started on loathsome cats. Some of those "disappear."

While I think you could be easily forgiven (by me, anyway) for shooting the dog if you had, the action you chose was absolutely the best one -- resolving the situation with the least force required.

There have been some posts suggesting that the dog should have been shot in order to keep an obvious problem from recurring later, and possibly involving other targets. I see the logic of that, while getting nervous at the thought of ending a life for assumed future misdeeds, rather than based on previous experience that shows a pattern. That seems a very slippery slope...

No - not where my dog got away from me, I'm pursuing her and where she showed no aggression to the people.

There are a lot of folks, me included, who would consider a 125 lb dog off the leash charging toward them as certainly showing aggression. You might be pursuing the dog, but how much damage could the dog do in the 10 to 15 seconds it might take you to get there? Sorry, but if I saw a 125 lb dog charging toward me and my wife, and I had the means to stop it before it got there, I would do so.

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Georgia On My Mind

God Bless Texas!!!

(Georgia, too)

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Georgia On My Mind

I hear ya - but you had to be there to understand that it was not aggression. Hard to relate over the internet . . .

I was digging next to my house's foundation a few years ago when I heard barking on the other side of the building and my wife's frightened voice saying, "Honey there's a dog"!!!! Being that I'm a former grunt, it was bayonet time! My body pumping with adrenaline and running into battle, I was around the house in about two seconds and facing a golden retriever that was barking, but not baring it's teeth. The stupid beast was wagging it's tail the whole time. "Damn schitzo dog", is what I said, grabbed it's collar and shovel in hand hauled it over to the neighbor's house. I might be wrong, but dog's tend to give away what they are thinking better than humans with their body language. Watch the tail. This dog was a weirdo that sent mixed signals, but it's tail told me that it was no threat!

Would a layman who didn't know your dog consider it NOT aggressive in the situation you describe?

It is unreasonable to expect a total stranger to incur risk from a strange dog based on knowledge of that animal which the person does not and cannot possess. Nor is it reasonable to expect any random person to have knowledge of dogs or their behavior other than that they have four legs and are usually capable of barking. No one not responsible for a particular dog has ANY duty to know dogs or dog handling, nor to take risks contingent upon said knowledge. It's the duty of the person or persons in legal possession of that animal to exercise sufficient control over it such that it's not a danger to the public.

Bottom line:

• I have no legal duty to know ANYTHING about how to handle dogs.
• I have no legal duty to know your dog's personality.
• You have a duty to control that dog such that it's not a threat to third parties.

You did the right thing. I would have a conversation with my neighbor about the confrontation, although. The next time it happens it would be lethal. Got a stupid neighbor that is in about the same boat right now. Haven't had any confrontation as of yet. Wouldn't hesitate one moment to put "Rocky" down.

So the answer to your question is - yes.
Sophie wanted to see the dogs the couple was walking and ran up to them and sniffed them. No other drama.

BTW - I agree with your "bottom line" statements. It is a greater responsibility to own powerful breed dogs than other breeds. Many owners - especially those who own pit bull and similar breeds as a status symbol - don't realize or accept that responsibility.

You have related two different incidents, maybe? Sounds to me like the couple did indeed fear for their safety and that of their dog.

Look, we're not trying to give you a hard time. However, you must realize not everyone realizes what a sweet, gentle dog Sophie really is, and if she breaks loose from her leash, charges another group with a leashed dog, while ignoring her owner's commands, she is subject to being shot under the right set of circumstances. Rightfully so in my opinion.

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Georgia On My Mind

Same incident. They were scared that my dog would devour their little dogs. But Sophie ran up and smelled their dogs- that's it. This sidebar is getting stale, so I'm finished with it.

Back to the OP - I think he could have justifiably shot the dog, but he handled it just fine. It's easy to sit back behind our keyboards and say "woulda, coulda, shoulda" - but the OP'er handled the situation well at the end of the day.

If you cannot understand it, then I suggest you spend extra effort securing the dog so that it does not, 'slip collar', and train your dog so you do not have to pusue it. If the dog gets shot I reckon you are then the responsible party as its owner. You and your dog need to be better trained, disiplined and responsible I'm thinking.

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Hook686

I had to read all the replies before posting this just to make sure no one has asked. Were the dog owners made aware of what had transpired? If so, what was said by you, and what was said by them? Did they start in with the "No need to pull a gun on our precious poochie!"? Did you give them an earful about having been attacked by their dog? Did any of the other neighbors have a problem with you discharging a firearm in the neighborhood?


BTW, I think you did the right thing, but would have been justified in shooting the dog as well.


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

My opinion is that you acted in a way that resolved the situation and resulted in the least grief for yourself.

Killing the dog, would have caused lots more aggravation.

Having said that, if the first shot hadn't deterred the dog, I definitely would have put him down with a second shot. The risk...that you don't get a second shot. A dog attack could cause you to drop the gun and end up getting mauled before you could recover.

From a legal perspective you certainly would have been justified in shooting him.

Pepper spray could have done what your first shot did, but also has the potential for not working.

Wheelgunner,

I have not discussed the incident with the neighbors in question. I let the police handle that discussion. In the past I have stopped to help them move heavy items when I saw them struggling, and was underwhelmed by the lack of thanks. Conversely, the neighbors have not come over to talk with me.

I did talk to the other neighbors in my cove, and all supported my actions. One woman related that she told the owner she should not let her dogs out "off leash" because of the elderly residents and small children living in the cove, to no effect. No one said they thought I had jeopardized them or had any issue with the discharge. One of the reasons I did not shoot the dog was I had not heard of anyone having been bitten previously, and idiotic as it sounds, I would only have shot the dog if it had actually bitten me. No one I talked with knew of the dog biting anyone.

This was the only time I had seen the dog outside of the fence without the owner. I still believe I would have been bitten if I had simply tried walking away. I have lived with and encountered too many dogs, including other Pit Bulls, to confuse aggresive and playful behaviors.

Again, I appreciate all the feedback given by so many Forum members. This has been a very interesting and educational discussion.

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Infected by Smith&Wesson

To me, that sounds like, "I would only have shot the mugger if he'd stabbed or shot me."

Could you support your family without the use of one or more of your limbs? What if the dog latched onto your crotch? Do the neighbors have enough insurance or assets to support you when you can't work? How much is your ability to work, walk, type, have sex and reproduce worth to you? Have the neighbors got that much money? I doubt it.

It's always your choice, but I don't think you take the possibility of PERMANENT injury seriously enough.

I think I understand what your saying. One of my neighbors had a pair of pit bull mixes. One night I heard a commotion and went on the back porch to find both dogs in the back yard seemingly attacking my daughters cats. When I stepped out on the porch one dog ran and the other one turned at me and growled.

The next morning my son helped me load the caucus into the bed of my truck. The dog that turned tail still comes over almost daily and plays with our two small dogs and we've never had a bit of trouble with it. It looks mean as all get out and when you pull into our drive if it's there it will bark, but it's just a bark, not a threat.

Walking our dogs we've had neighbor dogs come charging out barking. Frankly I tend to watch our dogs reaction to interpret the intent. If they are standing with ears perked and tails wagging I know it's just a dog greeting. If our dogs cringe I'll have one hand on my pistol while I see what will develop.

I can't second guess Wheelgunner but only because I wasn't there.

I can tell you that I thought I knew the difference in a dog that wants to be petted and a dog that wants to bite. I won't wait and see if I get bit first. I have experienced this first hand.

Several years ago I was waiting for a customer outside his house. He had two german shepperd mix dogs running around. The first thing he said was "your ok, they don't bite". It was a nice day out. I leaned up against my work vehicle and waited. One of the dogs approached me in a very friendly manner. He approached slowly and wagged his tail. I started to pet him on top of the head which he seemed to like. After about a minute the dog growled and bit my hand. They only thing I could do is raise my hand pulling it out of the dogs mouth. As I drew my hand up, he followed. I then realized that I was raising my hand towards my face. So I stopped and the dog grabbed my hand again. So I shoved my hand all the way into the dogs mouth and grabbed his lower jaw preventing him from putting more pressure on my hand. I then kicked him in the ribs hard. Must have broke a few because he yelped, wimpered and ran off. The owner came out and asked what happens? I told him and he apologized.

That all happened in a matter of a few seconds. It won't happen again.

The possibility of over-reacting and making a huge mistake also needs to be taken pretty seriously. The incident described and the OP's handling of it show how well things can work out if there is a moment to assess and respond, and someone level-headed enough to make good use of it rather than shooting first and asking questions later.

A moment?

Dogs don't have hands. They have TEETH. As illustrated in my last post, it takes less than a moment for things to turn bad. And when they turn bad how we act or react will determine the outcome.

Waiting for a dog to lunge and then bite is like drawing against a gun that is already pointed at you.

IMHO, in that situation there is no such thing as overreacting. I would rather overreact than react to late.

My outlook on this may differ from others simply because I've been bit twice already in addition to being chased and charged. It ain't fun.

I agree. There seem to be people that believe they understand what a dog is thinking, feeling and going to do. These same people seem to think that there is time to correct any wrong action, reaction, or aggression by a dog in order to avoid personal damage.

Well I'm a disabled old man. I've been bit when I was a lot younger and in better shape than I am now. I'll not take the chance that Fido is really just a friendly dog and would not hurt a fly. If you value your dog, keep it on your property, or on a leash. If you are not responsible enough to do that, why whine if it gets shot when closing in on a stranger ?

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Hook686