This concept seems a bit strange to me, I guess because I don't remember seeing anyone carrying non-concealed.

My state allows a registered handgun owner that does not hold a concealed carry license to carry non-concealed in public (with restrictions and at the private property owners discretion).

I will be applying for a concealed carry license in a month or so. My question is wait for the CCW or open carry for the time being.

Thanks.

This topic comes up quite often and gets heated on both side..."no way, they will shoot you first in a hold-up" to "oh yes, it's a deterrent, no one will mess with you." I guess you have to weigh those and ask yourself another question: would you really be comfortable openly carrying a weapon? If so, then go for it...personally, I would be too self conscious.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I'd wait for the CCW permit/license. Although I think that it should be up to the individual whether to carry open or concealed, carrying open identifies you to a potential Ft. Hood or Killeen Luby's bad guy as someone who needs to be taken out first, IMHO. Open carry also really makes a lot of people very uncomfortable. (I know, I know, they need to get over it, but they won't.) Why do that? You can take care of business discreetly without bothering anyone. Yes, CC is more difficult than open carry but in the real world it seems, again in my opinion, the best solution.

Another vote for wait, I for one get rather tired of this argument. It really doesn't do either side either good. Most of the times this argument starts on another board I frequent the thread most often gets locked.

I can't recall ever seeing the debate on this forum, I would think if things get out of line Lee will lock this one too.

Cheers,
Sam

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Beware the man with one gun...

And there I was, the only cavalry man left, low on ammo and the Indians circling the wagon train.............

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

Main problem is that most civilians and cops don't know it is legal. So you go somewhere , concerned citizen calls cops about a "MAN WITH GUN!". Cops show up , might not know OC is legal. Take you down town , confiscate your gun , put you thru the ringer , cost ya time off from work , cost ya money to get a lawyer to straighten things out , get court order to get gun back. Might not be right , but it does happen. And even with a 'permit' , private property owners and privately owned establishments have the right to bar persons openly carrying weapons. Most OCer's , or as I call 'em 'open carry clowns' , do it just to shock and rile people. Like those kids who just got a drivers license and ride around with the boom-boom stereo blaring at 5000 watts.

Believe me , I've been carrying concealed over 28yrs with a LTCF , and still have problems with cops who don't know the laws.

Here's some OC incidents from Mighigan on YouTube. You decide if it's worth the hassle.
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...pen+carry&aq=0

There's plenty of websites and forums dealing with OC.

Oh good god just wait for your CPL. Open carry without a CPL is much harder IMO

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

I agree with your points. Seems it brings on attention I am not looking for.

Sorry if this topic has been beaten to death, but being a first time pistol owner, I learned about the right to open carry w/o CCW on Sunday.

No need to be sorry. It just so happens that the topic of open carry goes over like a fart in church.

Enjoy the forum and ask away.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

Oh no, not again

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Sure you did

Here is a recent thread that covered this topic: opinions

You'll likely find that opinions vary greatly depending on the region/locale that the person giving the opinion is from. Talk to someone who live is AZ, for example, and you'll likely get a much different opinion than someone who lives in Chicago.

I've done it a few times (sort of) and can't see it ever becoming my preferred way of carry. By "sort of" I mean I've done it a few times at a gas station and once at a local convenient store... and at the gas station I never went further than my truck. It was one of those deals where I was in the woods or working in the fields (I always carry my 681 when I'm out and about on my land) and headed into town for supplies, gas, etc.

At the gas station, I took notice of people's reactions.. every time at least one person gave me a double take. Some people will be totally oblivious, others will notice. Depending on what those who notice know about the law, you may or may not have any issues. I never did.

They know me at the convenient, so they couldn't have cared less that I had a gun. In fact, the girl behind the counter asked me some questions about it.

I gotta say, Sip summed it up nicely.

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- The Federalist #46 -

There are a few local gun forums where you can get more info on Open Carrying in Michigan. I would suggest you read up on the different do's and don'ts on Open carrying before venturing out and trying it. There are certain places that are off limits to opencarry in Michigan without a CPL. there are Open carry picnics and get togethers where you can meet up with other Open carriers and learn about it also. Here are a couple of sites to try Michigan Open Carry, Inc. | Nothing to hide!
Michigan Gun Owners
OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost! ... go to Michigan section on this site

Just my opinion, but open carry seems to be a statement for those that do so. A statement for our right to do so. Nothing more.

Carrying a gun for self defense should be a life changing decision. Concealed carry requires more dedication to the art of concealed carry.

I have asked many here in Washington that carry openly. We discussed it and even argued it. The reasons were all the same. "Because I can". "It's my right." "I'm too lazy to carry concealed and dress around the gun".

Then there were the tactical arguements. "I can draw faster". "It's a deterrent".

Sorry, I don't buy it. I can't begrudge them to do so because it's their right to do so. But it doesn't accomplish anything either except make the carrier feel better about himself.

Open carry is a mere statement that shoves it down the anti gunners throats. A statement that say's "don't like it? TOUGH!"

Many of those I talked to like living on the edge. They like being rousted by law enforcement and the shocked or disgusted looks they get from others.

That kind of life isn't for me. I would rather be the quiet mind my own business type of person.

If I need to make a statement while carrying a gun, I'll do so on my terms when and if the time comes. Concealed carrying allows me to do so on my terms.

Again, for those that I may have offended, it's just my opinion which shouldn't matter much to you if you disagree.

To the OP, In Michigan you can Open Carry with a CPL in most
places that are Pistol Free Zones,and off limits to concealed carry.

Here are links to an MOC wallet card its a front and back PDF file.
it shows Open Carry off limit places with and without CPL in Michigan.

http://web.me.com/joshtish/Offlimits_Front.pdf


http://web.me.com/joshtish/Offlimits_Back.pdf

Again I will say that Open Carry is the main stay of the 2nd Amendment.

If the law allows it, then what is wrong with doing it.

I do understand from my travels and the words of others that Open Carry works better in certain areas. Locally nobody pays open carry any attention unless you walk around with a western style rig strapped to your leg and even that is legal. If I were to try Open Carry in some northern states where legal, it would still attract attention.

Yet does not open carry show non-gun people that those with guns are not bad people? Does it not give pro gun people the opportunity to meet and greet?

Like the old saying goes , "ya never get a second chance to make a first impression".

We've had enough go arounds about judging people on tattoos , piercings , hair length and style , the way they dress , etc , that we judge people on how they look.

Tell me you'd view a person with long hair & beard , in old blue jeans , cut-off Harley T-shirt , with a CZ-82 or Makarov tucked in his belt 'Mexican' style , the same as someone 'clean cut' in a suit or dress slacks , with a shiny S&W snubbie in Galco holster.

Dress 'nice' , with a gun and people think yer a cop.

Dress 'disreputably' with a gun and you're labeled a criminal.

Fashion police chime in now.

My personal opinion (and that's all it is) is wait for the concealed license. Open carry may be a constitutional right (that many states have stepped on) but the potential problems don't seem worth it. I do wish Texas would pass open carry though just to eliminate the risk of "brandishing" a weapon while concealed carrying and the gun peeks out for a moment.

I recall seeing police car dash-cam video from Michigan where a man was pulled over while carrying openly riding a motorcycle. The cop had pulled him over before and really proceded to be a total jerk. He even called the prosecutors office and after being told the man was within his rights , said "well just find someone , anyone , who will SAY it IS illegal!"

There's been events in Philadelphia where OC advocates , looking to stir trouble , have gone downtown , had their guns confiscated and even been arrested (on false pretense) , just to make their lives miserable. Don't know if there's registration of firearms in Michigan , but if any other guns show up under your ownership , the police/sheriffs could come a-knocking and confiscate ALL your firearms.

And it's a long , expensive process to prove them wrong and get your property back.

In Texas, if the wind blows your shirt up and your gun "peeks out for a moment," you have not broken the law (there is no "brandishing" law in Texas). Intentional failure to conceal IS against the law in Texas.

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Centennial Every Day

I know...it happened with my garter holster...

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

What he said plus, you are dareing the BG's to take it away from you. And unless you have 24/7 360 degree radar coverage sooner or later one will.

Nah, can't happen to me? Well it did Bill Hickock, John Wesley Hardin, Billy the kid, etc.

Here we go again.

I have carried mostly open and many of those I work with have carried openly for the better part of 45 yrs. Not once has anyone tried to take my gun from me. Not once have I had a LEO question me. Just today a detective and I were having lunch in a crowded restaurant. Both of us were openly carrying as we are most days. Around here nobody pays it any attention.

I am 6'3 and weigh 250 and I carry. Who would attempt to take my gun, even if the holster did not have retention?

Now name me once where this happened? I cannot find where anyone took Hickock, Hardin or Bonny's gun away either.

Protecting your rights is ALWAYS worth it.

I think someone previously said that what would work in a rural area wouldn't go over too well in Chicago. Probably a true statement. I worked in Los Angeles for 24 years; open carry (which is legal, as long as it's unloaded) wouldn't fly. Different mind-set in "the big city". No amount of "education" will help. Some people (in big cities, usually) don't like guns and don't want them in the open. Some OC people recently tried a couple of demonstrations in Southern CA; it didn't go over well. My gun (by dept regulation) was concealed and it was (despite what the OC true-believers will tell you) a distinct tactical advantage, which worked in my favor more than once.
Bob

Which emphasizes the importance of what grandma taught us gurls:

Keep your gown down

Well I give you credit for understanding the difference in regions.

Open Carry in Louisiana works because it has been the law since Day One. It also works because virtually everyone owns guns and there is one in almost every car on the roads. Our wrecker inventory sheets have a place to identify the firearms found in the wrecked cars. If the law was not already in place but was voted in, there would be mass confusion over what is legal, what is allowed where and many more areas. All the LEO here know that open carry is legal. It is taught at the academies.

That having been said, I still have more of a problem with AZ allowing anyone to carry concealed without a permit. How do they keep felons from carrying without running a check on each person they stop? At least. most of the time, I know the persons I am dealing with are either open carrying or legally able to carry concealed. If they are carrying concealed without a permit, they are in a heap of trouble.

There have been lots of NYC Cops who have had their weapons ripped out of holsters and killed LOD, while in uniform.
Here is a site that where it discusses the subject

Attempted Transit Cop Gun... in THEE RANT Forum

Here is a site where you can scroll pages and pages of LOD NYC Cops, I bet you find a dozen where perps have removed guns from Cops;
Search for a Fallen Officer york city &state=New York&from=1791&to=2011&o=

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

It depends on where you are, but like others, I suggest waiting for the conceal carry permit. I'm in North Carolina and the last time I open carried was in a McDonalds, a few years ago. The manager approached me, said a customer brought it to his attention, and then claimed it wasn't allowed. It was allowed, but in NC a place can put up a "no conceal carry" sign banning handguns. Rather than argue with the misinformed manager and risk my most frequented McDonalds putting up one of those signs, I put my firearm in my car and have carried concealed ever since.

I use to open carry in years past, but today's climate seems less tolerant of it.

Uh... Sip... I said sHirt, not sKirt.

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Centennial Every Day

Yes, there are numerous documented cases of it happening to LEO's, which, given the nature of their job, isn't surprising. That said, I only know of one instance where it happened to an armed citizen who was openly carrying (not saying there aren't other cases, just saying I only know of one that has been documented).

As a part of their job, police officers have to routinely make close, physical contact with people who are known to be dangerous. Law abiding citizens, on the other hand, have no such duty hazard. In reality, the instances of a openly carrying law abiding citizen being disarmed by a criminal, or targeted by a criminal, are so low, that it is nearly impossible to cite more than a couple incidents.

What I find rather ironic is that, in most states that have adopted a "shall issue" concealed firearm permit system over the past 10 years, there was generally a universal outcry from LEA's in the state for OPEN CARRY as opposed to concealed carry. The argument was, of course, that if people were required to openly carry, at least LEO's would know who was armed with just a quick glance. Kinda funny how those very same LEA's and LEO's are now so vocally AGAINST open carry.

Could it be that in reality, many of them are simply against the idea of citizens being armed at all?

If you're getting coffee or gas at 4 in the morning at some little store on the way to your tree stand during hunting season, I doubt anybody will question you for having a holstered pistol in open view. On the other hand, if you are at Times Square at any time of the day on any given day and aren't wearing NYPD blue, you'll make national headlines. Know the law, know your location, and have some common sense.

I worked one such case where an officer (Watson) was shot with his own gun. There was no warning but the shooter (Petteway) simply took the officer's gun from the holster and shot him five times before sitting down waiting for police to arrive. The officer lived but could not return to work and now lives in AR.

It was learned the shooter (whom I interviewed numerous times) was a college graduate with a promising career and no prior problems. He did not know the officer, never had any problems with him and only did what he did due to medicine he was placed on for depression. He stated many times to me and in court that he would not have done it if the State had not made him take the medicine and IF the officer had not been as large as he was and IN uniform. Poor reasons? Yes but not something that would have caused him to attack an individual. He had no reason to attack anyone but the meds did have a bearing on the case as well as the perception many have that triggers attacks on uniformed officers.

The officers gun holster had retention but it was not working. A civil suit was filed against the holster maker. The shooter got 50 yrs without benefit of parole or probation.

Give some examples of open carry causing a gun grab for the citizen.

Well , stop standing on air ducts trying to do your Marilyn Monroe impersonation while armed!

I would wait. I am from MI and OC laws here are great for OC but you can inadvertently break the law if not followed to a tee. You can OC in Wallmart with a CPL but cannot without CPL because of liquor is sold in the store. Go to Michigan Open Carry, Inc. | Nothing to hide! for more details.

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In case of emergency call 1911

My concern is who gets to decide intentional failure to conceal when it happens and how long do I lose use of my guns while it works its way through the court.

This is the only verified, documented example of an openly carrying armed citizen being targeted and disarmed by a criminal, that I know of:

Man Legally Carrying Gun Robbed at Gunpoint - TODAY'S TMJ4

I believe that OC is just as much my Right as owning a gun in the first place. I have nothing to be ashamed of and plan on breaking any laws. Too many of my fellow americans have been brain washed into thinking OC is evil and not needed. I believe just the opposite it true, We need exercise the right to carry in way we want too.

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Protected by Sigma 40VE

Texas has been a CC state for over a decade now with almost half a million CHL's issued and I'm not aware of a single case of someone being charged with intentional failure to conceal. You might want to go over to the Texas CHL forum and look around. Lot's of good information there. No need in worrying over things that don't need to be worried about.

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Centennial Every Day

The sample size of persons that open carry is so microscopic that not being able to cite examples is no surprise.

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Centennial Every Day

How many does it take to be considered non-"microscopic"? A thousand? A million? Ten million?

In 2009, it was estimated that there were 429 violent crimes committed for every 100,000 persons in the United States, so 1 out of every 233 people could expect to be a victim of a violent crime.

Since I suspect we can all agree that on any given day, there are at least tens-of-thousands of people who openly carry in this country (not counting LE), can we not look at the overall crime rates against those folks and ascertain data that is just as relevant?

It does raise the question of how many people actually do open carry where legal. I've been through New Mexico and Arizona, both open carry states, many times and can recall on one hand the number of persons I saw carrying openly. Maybe some of the other open carry states have a higher percentage?

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Centennial Every Day

I think it all depends on what part of those states you happen to travel through. I have a friend who lives somewhere north of Phoenix who describes open carry as "commonplace", though he's quick to point out that it is more prevalent in some areas than others.

My home state of Tn. allows handgun permit holders to carry openly or concealed but I do not know many people who open carry. I know of only one incident where open carry lead to a LE response and that was by someone in the Nashville area open carrying an AR pistol.

Probably very true. I tend to get very involved in new things very quickly so my interest grows faster than my knowledge. I went from never being underwater to rescue scuba diver in just two years and now from never having a gun to a small and growing collection with a CHL in just 10 months. Thank goodness for forums like this to help sort it all out.

I doubt if most adults are observant enough to even notice someone open carrying unless that person has a flashy rig or is acting nervous. I’m a people watcher and most people seem to go through life oblivious to what is going on around them.

You nailed it.

Around here, people do not notice a gun. They notice my badge on the belt long before they see a gun. I seldom carry concealed when not working. If I leave the local area, concealed is the only way I go.

Something is awry with this stat.

cshoff is entirely accurate in what he states yet something is "missing." Can anyone help? Any stat gurus out there?

e.g. Let us consider a city of 100,000 souls. 429 crimes of violence equates to approximately 1.2 crimes of violence per day. To me, that means I have a 1 in 833,333 chance of being a victim each day...not one in 233.

AGAIN, CSHOFF'S STAT IS ACCURATE, PER SE, BUT CAN IT BE BETTER QUANTIFIED. What am I missing?

If I am not being clear, there are 1304 people currently looking at this Forum. The stat as initially represented suggests 1 in 6 of us will be a victim of a violent crime today. Am is missing something? (Note: I have waaaaaay more than 233 pals on Facebook. Thankfully, none of them has been a victim of a crime of violence in the several years I have used Facebook.)

HELLLLLLLLP!

Be safe.

You are missing a couple of things. First and foremost, the stats represent a national average. Clearly, some areas have a much higher violent crime rate than others. Take Chicago and Washington DC, for example. Both areas have exponentially higher crime rates than, say, rural Kansas. So you can't just look at those averaged statistics and believe that 1 out of every 233 people in every locale in the country will be a victim of a violent crime this year because it could be much higher than that in one area, and much lower than that in another.

In addition, these statistics are annual, not daily. In your hypothetical "100,000 population city", if 429 of those people were going to be victimized, and you were one of those 100,000 people, then yes, your odds of being one of the 429 victims would be 1 in 233 (+/-) over the course of that year, NOT 1 in 833,333. (429X233= 99,957).

WHAT, only 429 crimes per 100,000... where, I will move today...

I live near the city of Flint, MI. In 2008, the violent crimes for the City of Flint were 2596.1 per 100,000 people (the national average at that time was 553.5 per 100,000). Its only gone up, too. Last year, Flint, Detroit and Saginaw MI (all within 120 miles of each other) were in the top 6 of America's highest crime rated cities per capita. I know that with less population, Flint MI beat it's previous record for murders in a year in 2010 (I think with 63(102434 was the population of Flint in 2010)).


I think it all depends on where you live...