Amazing...OK, here's the difference. You play silly with the police, you pay the price. Maybe a ticket, maybe jail. Depends. No cop-bashing here? I beg to differ. You don't have to trust the cop that stops you, but you'd better do what he says. Here's another thought...driving a car and a CCW are a privilege, to be taken seriously. They're not an absolute right. Do something foolish and see how fast both are revoked. Since no one here can come up with a solution besides giving anecdotal reasons why cops are evil and stupid (I know, I know, some of your best friends are cops...), I'll give you a solution to ALL the issues here.
1. Drive safely and stay within the speed limit. You won't get stopped.
2. Don't drink and drive (at least, while CCW)
3. Don't be trolling for whores or dope while CCW (like the goofball in the other thread).
4. If stopped, be polite and follow instructions. If you don't want to tell the cop you have a gun, don't. There may be a price to pay, though.
5. If you're not satisfied with your treatment, complain to the Agency involved, not the Internet. If the cop screwed up you'll probably get some satisfaction.
6. Stop whining. If it didn't happen to you, so what? The facts of what REALLY transpired may be different than "what you heard". Go about your life, carry your weapon responsibly and think about the next one you're going buy. My thoughts. Bring it on.
Bob
PS Badges DON'T mean anything. I always asked for ID. And yes, I've arrested more than one cop in my time. Never wrote a cite to one, though.

Flat out untrue.

Police stop people for a variety of reasons, some of them HIGHLY illegal, such as race and ethnicity.

I was stopped once while a friend's wife was driving me to the Amtrak station in the middle of the night. He said she was "weaving". It was a LIE. He was trolling for drunks, or who knows what.

I was "trolling" for the Lakeshore Limited.

If the law doesn't REQUIRE me to notify, there'd better NOT be.

The kind of "satisfaction" that the family of Michael Pleasance got?

Or the kind that the family of Kathryn Johnston got?

Or the kind that the family of Ronald Madison got?

Stop "whining" about "officer safety". If you can't feel "safe" without breaking the law, change careers.

I wasn't shot along with the three cops who were murdered in that cafe in Washington. Should my reaction be, "It didn't happen to me, so what?"

cmort666, your post says it all. Nothing I say will change your views. Obviously, you have a problem with cops. No sweat, most everyone I dealt with did. As far as the career change goes, I did. Retired and went back in the Army. Prepping for my 3rd combat tour. Hope you come to grips with your anger issues.
Bob

That argument goes the other way as well. How come so many police have a problem with civilians?

The % of "cop haters" is very low. Most of those portrayed as "cop haters" are police abuse haters, pro-Constitution, and pro-Rights.

I think your comment, "It didn't happen to you, so what?" pretty much sums things up. That doesn't really strike me as a productive attitude in a cop.

I certainly have a problem with psychopaths like Officer Harless. Apparently you do not.

I feel compelled to note:

1. You did not in ANY way respond to my FACTUAL points.
2. You responded instead with ad hominems.
3. It wasn't ME screaming obscene death threats in the middle of a city street like Dennis Hopper in "Blue Velvet". Yet, you think that it's ME and not Officer Harless who needs to deal with "anger issues".

The "chalk circle" mentality in law enforcement is a VERY dangerous thing... sometimes a DEADLY thing.

Wow, I'm sure glad I live where I do. The cops respect us, and we respect the cops. I've been living in my present location for 16 years, belong to a gun club with over 500 members who all live within a 20 mile radius. I've NEVER heard of one time when there's been any sort of confrontation between any of them and the cops. That sort of thing would spread like wildfire.
In fact, the police chief, along with every local politician, comes to the local Friends of the NRA dinner every year.
I leave my house and the thought of getting hassled by the cops is nonexistant.
I stay out of NYC as much as possible, life outside the city is a whole nuther world. YMMV

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Sure you did

Isolated incidents can happen anywhere.

What's a cause for concern is a pattern of misbehavior. Those sorts of things tend to occur in clusters, usually in cities and towns with a long history of inadequate or corrupt supervision, and public apathy toward it.

This kind of thing would be very unexpected in Olmsted Township, Ohio. I doubt ANYBODY would be surprised if it (or worse) happened in New Orleans.

You have the kind of police that you demand.

Demand professionalism and that's what you'll get.

Demand nothing, and you'll likely get whatever the lowest common denominator thinks it can get away with. And that can run the gamut from "rudeness" to contract murder.

You mean when they disarmed a legally armed citizen, separated his ammo from his guns, and told him if he stopped to load his weapons they would take him to jail?

That tells me a lot.

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Georgia On My Mind

I would consider it troubling for somebody with no duty to protect anyone as an individual, forcibly (and unlawfully) preventing someone from being able to defend himself.

I guess the response would be, "It didn't happen to you, who cares?"

Like I said guys, nothing I say here will make any difference. Screaming at me about corruption and other improper stuff, done by cops from other jurisdictions, seems kind of silly...hence, my "so what?" response. I can't do anything about it. Not my area, and I'm retired. I don't really care. I worked hard, put bad guys in jail, got hurt a couple of times and retired honorably. I tried to convey what a cop thinks like. No one wants to hear it. The thread is about "duty to inform" and you're all screaming about murder in Atlanta or New Orleans. Talk about thread drift. Cop bashing? Not here? Hmm...I advised, in a few easy steps, how to stay out of trouble. I was told it didn't matter, cops will lie and stop people for racial and ethnic stuff. I never saw it in my career. Don't really care if you buy it or not. We were too busy (like most cops) doing our job.
I noted SEVERAL times that the Ohio cop was out of line and would pay a price. Sounds like you want him shot at dawn, for yelling and cursing at someone. Fair play and democracy at work, I guess. Nope, no cop-bashing here. And I did reply to your "factual" points...several times. Not going to anymore. I won't be responding again...I have to get some work done, and it's getting silly here, anyway. Last question: what the HELL does a stupid movie with a doper like Dennis Weaver have to do with a "duty to inform" thread? Very factual, I guess. Wow.
Bob

I think you are familiar enough with my posts to know that I have nothing but respect for officers.

I really can't see where pointing out problems is "cop bashing."

I don't know what prompted OIF2 to such a degree of truculence. There is just no doubt but what there is a problem in certain jurisdictions. Cobb County and Glynn County Georgia are a couple that come to mind.

There have been some bad stories from Columbus, GA PD too.

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Georgia On My Mind

"Yelling and cursing"?

You're being a little bit less than candid, aren't you?

What ACTUALLY did he say? You can't quote him verbatim, because it would be a violation of the TOS here, wouldn't it?

But let's say you left out the gratuitous obscenities and kept the "meat". What would happen to you if you walked up to a random cop on the street and said those EXACT words?

Better yet, how about if you sent them as an email or letter to the President?

Feel free to explain how aggravated assault and terroristic threats are bad when a citizen does them to a cop, but good when a cop does them to a citizen.

Take as much room as you need.

Back to the original question:
Mississippi does not require you to notify, however, a Mississippi Firearms Permit has the same number as a Mississippi Driver's License. If the officer runs a license check, he/she will know that you possess a Firearms Permit; you may or may not be asked whether you have a weapon with you.

After a certain point it starts to sound like the joke about the religious zealot who says, "Stop calling it a violent religion or I'll cut your head off!!!"

If asked, you should reply truthfully.

That's one of the angles being pursued here in Ohio, namely to remove the requirement for unsolicited notification, to be replaced by a requirement to notify IF AND ONLY IF ASKED.

That way the nonsense of the undefined "promptly notify" and the demonstrated potential for abuse are eliminated.

Mark, I have not suggested you DON'T have respect for police officers. I said where I live we respect them and they respect us, obviously not applicable outside my area. Seems all the arguments come in when people assume someone is attempting to force their life experiences on others. I just stated how things were here where I live.
Maybe you took offense to my comment "pretty simple", if so, it was most likely a poor choice of words, I retract it.

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Sure you did

cmort666, I got cursed, hit and spit upon quite often. It came with the territory. Why are you so angry? I keep saying the Ohio cop screwed up, but you won't believe me. What do you want done to him?
I've had people walk up to me during demonstrations and insult me multiple times. Not a big deal. Why do you hate cops so much? Where did the "aggravated assault" and "terroristic threats", etc. come from? Again, I thought this a thread on informing. Get a grip, dude. Feel free to PM if you want to rant on. People are getting bored.
Bob

I believe you. I never had a problem with either the Berea, Ohio or Fremont, Ohio police.

The problem comes in where somebody (not you) puffs himself up and tells a bunch of people who already know better, that "X doesn't happen ANYWHERE because it doesn't happen HERE." Or he says, "It didn't happen to you, who cares?" I didn't get shot with those cops in that cafe in Seattle. I still care.

When someone portrays himself as a member of a caste above and better than others, immune from criticism by virtue of his membership in that caste, it provokes animosity in those being talked down to. And it ought to.

Cities, and the citizens that live in them, give tacit approval to the methods used by the police agencies in those cities. If a police agency uses certain tactics or engages in certain behaviors, and the citizens do nothing about it, the citizens have given de facto approval for those practices to continue. If the citizens attempt to do something about it, they have put the police department on notice that such practices will not be tolerated. It cases such as NOPD, Atlanta, and other high profile cases, it is easy to say that such practices should be abolished. No one really wants their local PD to be running drugs, committing murders, etc. However, it never starts there, it always starts smaller. Sometimes it is as simple as a local ordinance that says all residents shall provide identification when asked by a LEO. Seems easy enough, right? After all, we have a lot of problems associated with transient homeless and this will allow the PD to get a handle on it. And while we're at it, a curfew to help eliminate the local gangs. As time goes on, more practices and policies are set in place, all in the name of crime prevention. In time, a "Prince of the City" mentality can develop in certain organizations or in specific units. "Hey, we're the Po-Leece, we can do what we want." I've seen it happen. The only solution to preventing such situations is active citizen involvement at the local government level. How many of you attend local city or county council meetings? How many of you have attended a local citizen's Police Academy, or a Ride-Along program? And how many of you never get upset at what an Agency does until it infringes on YOUR rights? It's okay for the local cops to roust the teenagers hanging out at the local Dairy Whip at midnight, after all, those kids aren't up to any good anyway. Well, if you give tacit approval to harassing kids who aren't breaking any laws, that approval will soon extend to other groups as well. I used to work a beat that had an elementary school in it that had a basketball goal. The kids from a local apartment complex used to come over and shoot hoops at night, with the approval of the principal. They played at night because it was cooler. I had numerous calls from the local homeowners in the area wanting me to "run those kids off." I always had to respond, meet with the homeowner, explain that the kids weren't doing anything illegal and I had NO reason to run them off. Virtually every homeowner I dealt with wanted them run off anyway because they "were just going to cause trouble" and "they'd be doing something wrong soon enough." I'd just leave, and wave at the kids on my way by. But if you extend their argument to its logical conclusion, then yes, it would be okay to stop citizens based on color or race, to roust the homeless, to demand to see "your papers, please." And all in the name of "Crime Prevention", that Holy Grail of law-abiding citizens and Police Departments everywhere. Ain't never gonna happen, folks, we're never going to prevent crime. You can prevent a crime, but not crime itself. Okay, I guess I've ranted in long enough in trying to say this: As private citizens, you will get the Police Department that you allow to exist. Just be careful what you wish for.

You have NO idea what that cop REALLY said, DO you?

You sound like a baffled Japanese high school student who thinks that the Bataan Death March was some ceremonial procession.

Here's an idea: Actually WATCH THE VIDEO.

I couldn't have put it better.

I think post #69 is an excellent answer to that question.

What was the original question

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Sure you did

an alarming trend began here in the Seattle /Tacoma area. First a Seattle PD officer was shot and killed and his partner wounded. Soon after 4 Lakewood WA officers were shot and killed while having coffee. All were targeted just because they were cops....no traffic stop, no pursuit.....they were hunted down at random....

One killer was a student , a 'constitional law' nut job.

Next a career criminal paroled in Arkansas ...(by former Gov. Huckabee!)...decided he was going to kill police....he was shot while trying to kill a 5th officer, who was alert and saved the citizens a costly death penalty trial...the killer announced his intentions to his family the day before...they did nothing to stop him("us v the police" mentality)

again these killings were not preceded by a crime...they were assasinations....

you may want to look at things from the officer's POV....you might not look like the Boy Scout you once were....

I did, Brother. I can deal with the insults; but you still didn't answer the questions: what's the solution, and what more do you want done to this policeman?
Bob

C-Sire, our Sheriff is a man I coached in High School baseball, and I taught several of his deputies, including the Chief. We have a very good relationship. When he was elected six years ago, he started what has been a very successful campaign against what had become a pretty bad drug problem. I speak to him often. He is very pro-gun, and laughs when I ask him if he is going to frisk me when he stops me. I always tell him that I'm proud of what he has accomplished during his tenure, but that I want him to really be careful about crossing the line from good enforcement practices to harassment of the citizenry. He laughs, but he knows I'm dead serious. I am also good friends with the Chief of Police in both towns close to me. I coached and taught the Chief in one town, and the Assistant Chief in the other. I regularly tell them how proud I am that my students are in such esteemed positions, and that I hope they remember what I taught them about the Constitution in their PoliSci class. They laugh, but they know I am serious. I have to say, they seem to be doing a good job of enforcement, within the bounds of their department policies and state law.

I would be very surprised to hear of much harassment of legal carriers in the rural sections. We all have multiple guns in our vehicles. It would be unusual to find a vehicle without a firearm. A few months back, one of the deputies walked over to my pickup and stuck his head in the passenger window while I was at a convenience store. I was taking some guns to the country to put in the safe there. I had three handguns, a rifle and a shotgun in view. He glanced at them, carried on a conversation for a few minutes, and told me to drive safely.

There is one thing that I wish departments would do. They should make sure their officers know state law regarding firearms carry. It is often said that "ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it." That should apply to officers as well as citizens.

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Georgia On My Mind

Putting a gun to someone's head is serious business. At what point does a situation change from one of cooperation to that of fearing for safety and actionable self defense?

If the ONLY thing you THINK he did was "curse", you were watching an ENTIRELY different video. Walk up to a cop and say the same things. Tell us how that goes for you.

1. The cop needs to be fired.
2. The cop needs to be prosecuted for the assault and associated crimes.
3. The cop needs to be prosecuted for the injury inflicted by the handcuffs.
4. The cop's previous complaints need to be reopened to see what didn't make it onto the dashcam (which he was previously reprimanded for not turning on).
5. The cop's personnel file needs to be CLOSELY examined to see if his chain of command willfully ignored misconduct. If so, THEY need to be fired and or prosecuted.

I'd say that's a good START.

And as I said, try emailing the President what Harless said to the victim as your own words. I suspect that your posts here will cease... maybe for quite a while.

Does this mean that you now acknowledge that there is a fairly widespread amount of these abuses taking place?

I would like to see that officer removed from the ranks of LEO. I think there could possibly be criminal charges against him, but I would let that pass.

What's the solution? Officers need to realize that the CCW is an official document, that the holder went through a due process in acquiring it, and that it does indeed mean something when a traffic violator presents it. I think officers should not pursue searches and questioning beyond asking for license and registration if they do not have reasonable suspicion to go beyond that. I think officers should not be OK with disarming a legally carrying citizen, separating his guns and ammo, and threatening to arrest him if he stops to retrieve his guns from the trunk. I think officers should know the law in their state and abide by that law. Officers have great leeway on what they can do during a stop, and they don't need to go beyond that. That means if there is no Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause, then they do not need to intimidate citizens into consenting to searches that amount to "fishing trips."

Far as citizens are concerned, they should know what is required of them by the law. They should cooperate with officers in the carrying out of this law. They should absolutely not try to provoke confrontations.

In short, officers should respect citizens, and citizens should respect officers, just as ladder13 suggested.

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Georgia On My Mind

Hi redlevel
That was a thoughtful and reasoned response, as was the one from cmort666, prior to yours. As far as being a widespread problem, I can't answer that (and neither can you, based on anecdotal evidence). I can only attest to what happened on my Dept, when I was there. I would imagine that there are issues with lots of departments; especially the smaller ones controlled by city or county entities. Looks like we're back on the road to a reasoned exchanged of ideas. I've been around A LOT of cops over a period of 24+ years, though, and know how they think. This is a good place to find out; in other words, don't tune up the messanger.
Bob

Know the law, obey the law.

Gary Slider:

Whoops! My bad. I had a dyslexic moment and reversed the codes in your map key. You have my apology, Gary.

I have edited my original post to eliminate any incorrect information about your map.

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

I know how to treat Arizona officers from now on. Thanks for the info.

Hmmmmmmm, what does that mean?

Sounds like "no notification, letter of the law". They have no right to expect anything else.

Part of my job is to replace computers in banks. That happens after they close. A few months ago I and two others were finishing up a branch at about 11:30 PM. We had just locked up the front door, put the key in the night deposit drop, and got in my car to leave. Blue lights out of nowhere. LOTS of blue lights. Four cars, four officers. They weren't there when we got in the car, and 10 seconds later they were. They were waiting for us to leave. Seems the cleaning people at a neighboring business called 911 to report people in the bank removing computers. Now since the job means leaving bank branches late at night, sometimes in fairly sketchy neighborhoods, ALL of us have CCW's and carry.

We three kept our hands visible, and complied with all requests as cheerfully as possible.

Officers were professional, we were polite, and fortunately we had all the paperwork authorizing us to be at the branch along with the branch managers personal phone number. Things were resolved quickly and painlessly, once my heart started beating again after the surprise of the blue lights.

My point is that I can't imagine how much the situation would have escalated if we had been required to inform these officers that we were armed. Trying to see it from their point of view, they've been called to a bank in the wee hours, see three men getting into a vehicle, and then find out they're carrying? I'm thinking that the situation would not end up as it is now, something to look back on and (almost) laugh.

Asking the many LEO's here; what would your thought processes have been?

Hand them your drivers license AND your permit. That is the way it works and is required in Texas. Besides---when a Policeman sees your permit---he pretty much knows you are not a felon and would rather not waste any more of his time messing with you---the cleaners are about to close and his girlfriend is calling.

First, BaldEagle, that's an excellent accounting of what transpired. Very well-written, in fact. Superb second post.

Now, though I have strong opinions on several matters relating to CCW, whether to "inform the police" is NOT among those opinions.

That said, I always inform...and did so even when I was an active duty LEO.

Here's the "problem," as I see it. If you are properly concealed and are not required to inform, that's all well and good. On the other hand, if you (not you personally, BaldEagle) don't inform in an enforcement circumstance such as depicted below and for any reason the LEO identifies you as CCW, you will most likely find yourself in a very uncomfortable situation.

Trust me on this one, a good street cop can detect tells.

Be safe.



"QUOTE=BaldEagle1313;136064224]Part of my job is to replace computers in banks. That happens after they close. A few months ago I and two others were finishing up a branch at about 11:30 PM. We had just locked up the front door, put the key in the night deposit drop, and got in my car to leave. Blue lights out of nowhere. LOTS of blue lights. Four cars, four officers. They weren't there when we got in the car, and 10 seconds later they were. They were waiting for us to leave. Seems the cleaning people at a neighboring business called 911 to report people in the bank removing computers. Now since the job means leaving bank branches late at night, sometimes in fairly sketchy neighborhoods, ALL of us have CCW's and carry.

We three kept our hands visible, and complied with all requests as cheerfully as possible.

Officers were professional, we were polite, and fortunately we had all the paperwork authorizing us to be at the branch along with the branch managers personal phone number. Things were resolved quickly and painlessly, once my heart started beating again after the surprise of the blue lights.

My point is that I can't imagine how much the situation would have escalated if we had been required to inform these officers that we were armed. Trying to see it from their point of view, they've been called to a bank in the wee hours, see three men getting into a vehicle, and then find out they're carrying? I'm thinking that the situation would not end up as it is now, something to look back on and (almost) laugh.

Asking the many LEO's here; what would your thought processes have been?[/QUOTE]

I have no issue informing any cop that I have a weapon either. I have no problem keeping my hands in plain sight and following directions to the letter. If he wants my gun I will cheerfully hand it to him.

My problem is when the cop wants my gun. When he is offended I have a gun. When he escalates the stop just because I have a gun. Sure I'll hand it over, but I don't like it.

So what if I have a gun. I'm a law abiding citizen exercising my right. To treat me any different than if I didn't have a gun is wrong wrong wrong.

Big D, thanks for the kind words. I did spend a bit of time editing. First draft was considerably less concise. I literally stumbled on this forum this afternoon while Googling "Model 28" and "Model 39". Had them 25 years ago, sold them (should have gotten rid of the ex-wife instead of the guns) and have recently obtained their replacements. The guns, not the wife.

Glad I found you guys. A wealth of information.

You sir are a prudent individual

Louisiana is a "must tell" state-but they'll know once they run your DL whether you tell them or not.

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Forum consigliere

I do not know about GA but in Texas a CHL holder may be disarmed if the officer feels his safety is in question. So that being said, you were subjected to much more than I think would be proper. I see no need for him to pull his gun. You had a valid permit.
He could have disarmed you but putting your guns in the trunk, unloading them and telling you that you faced arrest (for what Id like to know) is more than excessive. I would file a complaint. First talk to his supervisor and if that does not produce much, Internal Affairs would be next.

You should not have consented to the search and I really wonder how consensual it was. It is obvious you felt intimidated and that would negate a "consent" search.

I think you were given what we used to call "street justice" because you offended his sensibilities.....most likely by having a gun, most likely by speeding and most likely because you did not tell him you were a permit holder, and most likely because he is a bit badge happy.

I may have missed it. What is the rule in Florida, do we need to inform if stopped?

That isn't the case in GA, not without Reasonable Articulable Suspicion or Probable Cause. See the ruling from the Georgia Court of Appeals I linked to in this thread.

Just for the record, It wasn't me that happened to. I got that from the Georgia Packing dot org forum.

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Georgia On My Mind

I do not believe AL has a duty to report. Their law on concealed carry is pretty permissive.

I just ripped off your map. TYVM.

I don't know how I wound up at this thread ( can't remember after 10 pages of it ). LEO for 17 years, I know a cop hater when I see ( read ) one, and there's a person all through the many pages here that I can see shooting their mouth off at every cop they come in contact with ( under their breath, of course ).

I can see this individual creating untold problems for themselves in every aspect of their life when someone disagrees with them, about anything. I would go further and say their hatred of police officers goes way beyond the spit being hurled.

Everybody, everywhere, probably has story to tell about some officer who, in their opinion, was wrong about something. That's the way it is. And as long as a few bucks from the bad guy can arm a thug on the street, cop's are going to be suspicious of everyone, and they should. All of them want to go home after their shift.

Hatred for the police, as with hatred as a whole, is not rational. Take the stories in the news, for instance...priests, preachers, teachers, G.I.'s, Guantanamo, politicians etc..etc..etc.. Hate them all? Or realize there's bad seeds everywhere?

This person, unless he just likes to shoot his mouth off, will eventually wind up in the funny papers. Unhealthy individual, for sure.

Why don't you call a spade a spade? Who is this person you are accusing (under your breath, of course) of being a cop hater?

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Georgia On My Mind

The truth is that there are some people committed to denying the undeniable and excusing the inexcusable. The group to which they belong, within their magic chalk circle, is perfect and infallible. You're utterly unqualified to criticize their actions, be they ill-advised, ill-mannered or indeed indicative of mental illness.

You can't enforce the law if you can't or won't obey it yourself.

That doesn't stop some people from trying.