at a gas station. OK, it wasn’t a total surprise. I had two revolvers listed on another shooting site and this man said he was interested in the pair. Since he was somewhat local we agreed on meeting at a gas station in a town that was about 15 miles from each of us. We were both armed though I was CC.

Somehow no one seemed concerned about two guys in pick-ups, one openly armed, conducting a firearms transaction in a gas station parking lot on a state highway. He did examin the pistols out in the sunlight so it's not like we were hiding in the cab of one of the trucks. Apparently as neither of us had previously met we each took what we felt to be reasonable precautions. ;-D. And yes, he bought the pair. There are still a few things I like about rural Ohio.

Good story with a happy ending!
The world is changing... You wouldn't have seen that 30 years ago, but I suppose it was common place 130 years ago.
But not at a gas station.

So far all my storys have been boring. But around here most OC or CC stories are non events and that's what I'm trying to show.

I'm surprised you guys weren't targeted by a group of criminals, seeing how the other guy was openly carrying a firearm. Apparently, that is what criminals look for to target; citizens whom they know to be armed....../sarcasm

Anyway, glad your transaction went well!

Some people just can't let go, can they?

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Sure you did

Good thing that canton cop is on sick leave!

Some of us knew better from the outset. Others couldn't let it go despite being presented with evidence to the contrary.

Chalk this one up as another non-violent open carry incident.

Glad you sold your pistols and glad no one called the cops. The world is changing about firearms I think. I wouldn't think nothing of it if I saw someone openly carrying.

Out of curiosity, what kind of paperwork did you generate for this transaction?

Were you nervous selling firearms to a complete stranger? Right or wrong, I would be concerned that those firearms may somehow down the road of time fall into the wrong hands. I'm pretty sure I'd want some good paperwork showing that I had sold and transferred ownership. But without going through an FFL, I don't know what kind of paperwork that would be.

I have a standard Bill of Sale I use (can email you the file if you want). In addition, I generally require the purchaser to provide me with a photo copy of his/her DL (preferably with a CCW endorsement on it verifying that they have undergone a BG check at some point). As long as you exercise some due diligence, you're pretty much covered. The law provides that you may not KNOWINGLY sell to a person who may not lawfully possess. You can't be held to blame if you exercised due diligence at the time of the sale and it turns out later that the person lied to you.

This thread says we're going to meet someone open carrying...so when do we get to meet him?

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I asked to see his DL as proof proof age and residence. Which was the same requirements the previous owners asked of me when I bought them a few years ago.

Thanks, I fixed it.

So we don't get to meet him...

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Silly boy

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Sure you did

Boy, there's a lot of people in the thread about buying a stolen gun from a FFL who don't believe this.

I was talking about being the seller, however, not the buyer. Being the buyer, IMHO, has a lot more risk involved. Frankly, even if you buy from an FFL, unless the gun is new, you cannot be guaranteed that the gun isn't stolen.

I don't care, I'll take my chances and keep buying no lock S&W revolvers and 1911s that tickle my Elmo.

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S&WHF 366

Here's my test: If they have green money with water marks in it. I'm not the cops, and I can sell something that legally belongs to me, as long as I don't ask any FFL or Cop questions. Flapjack.

I'm not implying that you don't have the right to sell a firearm that you lawfully own. I'm just wondering what common-sense precautions that people take in order to prove down the road that the firearm was in fact transferred or sold to another person.

I'd hate for police to show up one day asking about why a gun registered to me was found at the scene of a crime, and for me to be sitting there unable to prove convincingly that I sold the firearm five years ago (and to whom).

It's interesting how much our locations affect our thought process and what we consider normal. Unless the ATF is keeping a secret registry like some believe the closest thing I have to a registered firearm is the Garand I bought from the DCM a few decades ago. We don’t have registration in Ohio so my asking to see a DL is considered VERY cautious for a FTF sale. I bought both of these pistols in FTF sales and they were both old enough (pre 1968) that they could have never had an FFL form filled out on them during their entire existence.

I'm not exactly sure what "registration" you are talking about. Here in Missouri, for example, there is no such thing as a registry. There is also no federal registry. So unless your state has a gun registration system, there isn't just some list an LEO can go pull up on a computer screen.

Regardless, you avoid any future problems by exercising some due diligence. When I sell a gun (which isn't very often), I use a Bill of Sale that contains the following:

The BOS also contains a description of the gun, make and model, and serial number. I then require a photo copy of their state-issued ID to verify that they are who they say they are, and the transaction is then complete. After speaking with two different attorneys and a circuit judge about selling in this manner, I feel more than comfortable that my liability is very, very limited.

By "registration," I mean the fact that every time I've purchased a firearm through an FFL, they fill out and have me sign a form that lists the firearm's make, model, and serial number.

Am I wrong in assuming that the form ends up being submitted to a federal authority? Surely, there must be some way to track a serial number on a firearm to its original owner.

Maybe I've seen too much TV?

After a certain amount of time (a set number of days, IIRC), federal BG check records are supposed to be purged (destroyed) from the system. Someone more familiar with the system can probably tell us for sure. After that point, the only record of your purchase is the 4473 form that your dealer retains.

It is possible that if a firearm is found a crime scene, an LEA can attempt to have the manufacturer identify which dealer it was orginally sold to and then have that dealer provide them with the 4473 form to possibly come up with a purchaser/owner. Though if the gun has been re-sold or stolen, it can quickly become a dead end. I have a pretty close friend who is a Chief with a large municipal department in the St. Louis area and he's told me that they almost never track down owners on the majority of firearms they recover. Most of those guns they come in contact with are stolen or have changed hands many times.

The burden of "proof" and providing any type of "screening" is on the FFL and the Gov, if applicable. I piece of paper with a bunch of asked and answered questions can work for and against a private citizen selling a gun. I do what is required and keep it simple. I have never asked a question of this kind when selling on GB or this forum. Your inquiry begins to sound like a Government "fact finding" exercise. Flapjack.

It's not an inquiry at all. It is a simple affirmation by the purchaser. Whether or not the purchaser is honest is entirely up to him/her.

The record of the transaction where someone buys a gun from an FFL is actually kept by the dealer on the form 4473 and in his A&D book. Both will remain with him until he goes out of business, then they are sent to ATF.

A trace of a relatively recently made gun can be done by ATF. It works like this: ATF contacts the manufacturer to see which distributor it was shipped to, from the distributor it is traced to the dealer who will check his records to see who he sold the gun to. After that the trace can become much more difficult if the owner has sold the gun to someone else. Since no paperwork is required of private sales, the original owner may not even remember who he sold the gun to, If he does the next owner wont.

Most of us in the business are eventually contacted by ATF to assist in one of these traces where a firearm has been used in a crime.

I do not think so. From what I have been told by those in power to issue a FFL, the non active dealer records go to the custody of an owner overtaking the business. If the business is no longer active, the records are sent to the Secretary of State or Attorney General for that region for lifetime keeping. They would only go to the ATF if there is not Secretary of State or Attorney General.

That option would exist if the business is sold, otherwise they would have to be sent to the ATF, just as is required of an FFL who has gone out of business.

14.1.2 Transfer of the firearms business to a new owner. In the event that the firearms business is
transferred to a new owner (i.e. successor), the FFL going out of business may dispose of the records in
one of two ways: (1) close all open A & D Record disposition entries by recording the date of transfer,
as well as the name and FFL of the succeeding licensee (or record that the firearm was transferred to the
discontinued FFL’s personal inventory), underline the final entry in each bound book, and deliver all
records to the business successor; or (2) deliver the records to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center,
244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405, or to any ATF office in the division in which the
business was located. A successor licensee, who receives the records from the original licensee, may
choose to forward the records to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center.217

14.1.3 Discontinuance of the business. If the firearms business is discontinued and there is no
successor, within 30 days of business’ discontinuance, the FFL must ship the records to the ATF Out-of-
Business Records Center or to any office in the ATF division in which the business was located. If the
FFL was granted a variance to use a computerized recordkeeping system, the FFL must provide a
complete printout of the acquisition and disposition records as stipulated in the variance approval.

You would know better than I but when I was going to open a small gun store on the edge of town, they looked at my intended location and said if I got a license (I did not) and went out of business, I would have to either pass the books on to the new owner or else turn them over to the Sec of State.

I understand laws do change.

Then there is also this:


Retention Period
The records maintained by an FFL licensee on firearm acquisition must be kept permanently if the dealer is an importer or manufacturer. Records of the sale or other disposition of firearms may be thrown away after 20 years. A licensed dealer or collector may discard acquisition and disposition records after 20 years. Any licensee may discard a Form 4473 after 20 years.