I'm not scared to carry my gun, but I also want to give as little to a prosecutor as possible. There is no reason in the world to carry a reload. The FBI doesn't carry reloads. The police don't carry reloads, why in the world would Joe six-pack need to carry a reload? So that you could save 20 cents while shooting someone?

I put my reloads in when target shooting and put in factory rounds for my nightstand and holster. It's just that easy.

The case we referred to shows how a good prosecutor can instill doubt and questions in the mind of a juror. Sure YOU would know better, but the soccer moms who are judging your trial may be swayed enough by hearing you rolled your own and engraved "Die you commie thug" in each round and dipped them in goat's blood to seal the primer.

Call me paranoid if you'd like. Chances are ultra high I'll never draw my sidearm in public. But if I ever do, I'm sure I'll find that the $3 worth of factory shells I have in my weapon will work just fine, and they'll be politically correct cartridges to boot.

It's a personal decision, to be sure, and there are some legitimate points to be made by folks on both "sides" of the debate.

In my view, there are a HUGE amount of variables that will be present in the moments leading up to, during, and after a defensive shooting that are completely out of our control. Nearly all of those variables could become a liability to us at some point after the event if the investigators and prosecuting attorney handling the case choose to make them so.

There are also a number of variables that we have COMPLETE control over prior to ever being involved in a shooting. Making some good decisions in regards to those variables ahead of time can help mitigate any future liability in their regard.

In my opinion, minimizing liability over things which we have complete control over ahead of time is always the prudent thing to do. There will be plenty of variables which we don't have any control over that already have the potential to cause us grief. No need to add to it.

And not until the Ft. Hood shooting did DA switch from using "ball ammunition" (FMJ) to JHPs for LEO duties stateside and overseas where they are allowed by treaty (European nations still abhor the idea of expanding ammunition). They have been carried for PSD missions for a long time due to the liability of "over penetration" in places like DC (and in certain European countries have been confiscated)....but not for everyday LEO Ops...so it can be argued either way....just depends on that elected official called a district attorney

+1 I think that is some of the best advice I have heard in a long time.

So if I pull down some factory rounds and inspect the flash holes and reassemble them using the factory's powder and bullet am I carrying "handloads"? How could they tell? If you place your trust on the quality of factory ammunition one day you will be surprised to hear a click instead of a bang. I have seen factory rounds with primers inserted backwards, sideways and with no flash hole in the case. What if you really needed that round some night? There are plenty of reasons to carry handloaded ammunition. Poor quality control would be at the top of the list. Ask Tom Campbell (Team S&W) if he trusts factory loads after having a failure to fire in a National Match and then going home and finding the round that didn't fire had no flash hole in it. Pleasing the court is one thing. Walking away with your life is another thing.

Carry what "cops" carry??????????????

Most cops carry 40 cal semis, I carry a 38 snub nose, how does that work?

I shoot thousands of rounds a year out of a revolver using the same rounds I carry in my 642 pocket pistol.

How would that compare in court with carrying factory bullets I don't shoot or practice with?

I carry per LEOSA and have to qualify yearly, I qualify with the rounds I carry and shoot in competition. Should I carry factory ammo I don't practice or quaify with?

In my cop days I was a UCSI (uniform crime scene investigator) and and still certified as a UCSI Instructor. I've delt with a lot of juries and lawyers in my 20 years of playing cop. Regardless of what you carry, some lawyer is going to try to muddy the waters, its their job.

Carry what you can defend, or if you can't defend your ammo then by all means use "common" factory ammo.

Best case would be like Wyoming, where if its a ligit SD situation, you can't be sued in civil court. But all states arn't like Wyoming.

I think each case is different. Our decissions should be based on our own situations, location, and experience.

If you are involved in a shooting, they will interview you, your family, and probably quite a few people you know. They will probably find out you load your own. Or they may ask you what ammo you use. You surely won't tell them it's factory ammo if it's not!

Every time I have seen this issue discussed, almost everyone has focused on legal issues and how it might be used against a shooter in court in an attempt to make him look less responsible and more bloodthirsty. I am aware that no one has demonstrated an actual case where it clearly made a decisive difference. It may have been brought up by a prosecutor, but is there reason to believe that it has made a difference in how the verdict went? (I'm aware of the Fish case, and I don't see much reason to believe that it affected the verdict.) Nevertheless, I feel that it is prudent to carry factory ammo for self defense just to give myself every possible (even if theoretical) advantage.

There are other considerations besides the legal questions. I prefer my SD ammo to be loaded with low flash powder. As a hand loader, I have not been able to obtain such powder, but some commercial ammo (especially ammo marketed for LE use) is loaded with it.

I have been hand loading handgun ammo for 50 years, and I have never had a misfire or squib with my hand loads. So I feel like my hand loads are pretty reliable. But if there were an occasion where I felt I needed the maximum possible velocity and energy from my handgun, I would prefer to use factory loaded ammo. Some companies like Buffalo Bore do load to the maximum safe level. The factory has the pressure testing equipment and technical expertise to test their loads and get them as close to maximum as practical. They also have access to special powders which can enable them to get higher velocity than the hand loader can achieve.

IMO, maximum power loads are seldom necessary or advantageous in a self defense situation. But when I carry my 10 mm woods gun in the bush, I want maximum loads. In that case I select commercial maximum loads. (You have to chronograph them yourself to be sure that you are getting the advertised performance level.)

But I'm getting scared to even bother with using a gun?
Does the presence of a "I Don't Dial 911, I Dial 357", or "Trespassers Will Be Shot, Survivors Will Be Shot Again" or other cute sayings cause a self defense shooting to be used against the victim?
Does a trigger job, lowered ejection port, 3.5# connector and lighter springs or other "Custom" Gunsmithing cause an extra look from the DA?
Maybe the Predator Skull on the grips?
I'm honestly concerned.

Yes, all these will be brought up in court.

I heard of a case where a person had a 'Danger - Dog on premises' sign and when the dog bit someone they lost the case. Their defense was they didn't know the dog would bite, yet their posting a warning sign indicated otherwise....

Terrible....just awful. TC flat points are almost the worst possible choice for self-defense. A modern JHP from any major ammunition company is a vastly superior choice. We issue Rem Golden Saber 230gr JHP for our .45 shooters, and haven't had any of the problems you mention...like bouncing around. Our guys develop all the testing that validates street results....just saying.

I carry reloads in my .44 Mag snubby.
226gr lead hollowpoints over 11 gr of Unique.
They perform WONDERFULLY, in fact... I need to order up some more before long.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

No comparison.....RELOADS....RELOADS...RELOADS...better in every aspect. You can "tweak" loads for "your" specific gun.

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Lt. Dan, what R U doing here?

99 % of the ammo I used is handloaded! I can't afford to shoot factory ammo. I carry them in my carry weapons too. I have bought some oddball factory stuff if I can't find brass readily available like the 8 x 56r Hungarian. And some 41 mag ammo as I can't find brass in my area either.

^^^^^^^^I got a chuckle out of that part....sorry.^^^^^^^

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Lt. Dan, what R U doing here?

"Well! You intended to shoot somebody, didn't you!? after all you did get a concealed carry permit!"

And I thought he was going to talk about my reloads!?

I carry with my reloads but I am very meticulous on my reloads. I have never had failures with my reloads and I am much more proficient with them. In my opinion I trust my loads more than factory but then again I am OCD about just about all my reloads. One friend of mine told me and I quote " trust your loads get good at reloading your eyes hands and a multitude of other body parts depend on it heck maybe even your life" . He also said " If your life depends on your reloads, use them if you must and if you live, deal with the law not your life". just passing on what a friend told me.

If you worry that much about what a lawyer is going to do, sell your pistol and chunk rocks at the BG. Oh wait...you didn't have that rock shaped at home did you? I'll bet you made that big ole point on that rock with the intention of killing poor mr. robber. Why didn't you use a nice smooth rock so as to cause less damage? I don't reload as of yet but when I do and get good at it, I will carry reloads for SD.

If you have never had the expirence of testifying on the stand, you truly have no idea of how you will react to the questions that are put to you.

No matter how well versed you are, how prepared you THINK you are, a question will be put to you, worded to slant your answer.

After countless hours on the witness stand, in front of a grand juries, civil cases and what not, your going to get caught in a trap question. If the other sides attorney is good enough.

You or your attorney can only protest the context of the question so far, until the judge orders you to answer the question. You will get that sick sinking feeling in the pit of you stomach that tell you it has just hit the fan.

I pray none of you fine folks ever has to find this out the hard way.

Just food for thought.......

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Take your time..quickly.

You must be a pleasure to deal with on the job.

Amen to that.

"Mr Reloader is it true that you shot my client, this adorable 17 year old inner city youth ,with a 10mm 1911 modified with a 3.5lb hair trigger loaded with ammunition rated to stop an 800lb Bear?"

"Well, I believe this question is a little out of context-"

Judge Fire N. Brimstone: "Answer the question".

Mr Reloader : "****"

Sold all my factory ammo since I started reloading ...

Anything, no matter how outrageous, can be conjured up from the imagination. How about giving a real example of anything resembling such a scenario actually taking place.

Sir,

I believe that question may be answered, "No, that is false," without perjury being committed, may it not?

Andy

How often do we hear the ammo you use don't matter if its a clean shoot. A clean shoot is a clean shoot. well this is true a clean shoot is a clean shoot however its the DA that has to stamp the file clean shoot we don't get to. so no pun intended don't give them any ammo!