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I may be wrong (and this does not mean I agree) but there are some states that have a law requiring retreat even if in ones own home. I am not positive but I think it may be Massachusettes, perhaps New Jersey or maybe even New York. I think these retreat laws are ridiculous but then again some states are ridiculous

Home invasions happen while one is gone with maybe only one or two people home. They take place when someone answers the door and then force that person back in the home. Doing so allows them time to go through the house without interruption.

Home invasions are more likely if one lives in a rural area, a drug area, a low income area, have a business where the proceeds are brought home daily or have something of great value that is known in the area. I doubt you know of a single incidence where a home of a friend or family member was raided while the family was home during night time hours.
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I hink that will depend a lot on where you live.

As for me, I have posted before in more detail the story of the old man who lived one mile from me in a very rural and peacefull area who was shot while sleeping (almost deaf) in a home invasion.

That was years ago.

As for the real world as it exists today, here in the Piedmont North Carolina, home invasions are suddenly becoming an everyday thing. Some are dope related. Lots of them are not.

Also it varies from town to town. A much smaller town only 25 miles or so from much larger towns is having a crime spree with home invasions, robberies and day time stick ups every single day, sometimes multiples on the same day.

So it can happen anywhere, but there are some places where it is much more likely than others.

No retreat, no surrender.........

Here in Texas, we have the "castle law" to put it simply, if you cross my moat... Your not leaving alive!

: )

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"Go ahead, make my day."

This is all quite scary... I live not 60 miles from a major city, and about 23 miles from a big city. We never used to lock our cars or doors, but now I see actual graffiti and have heard of break ins... I run a business from home and keep cash and guns in a (stupid of me, not thinking) safe in my garage. I have had various people comment on seeing a large safe sitting in my garage, from delivery people to casual acquaintances. I wasn't thinking about people noticing it, I just didn't want to drag a ginormous safe into my house!

Now I worry that my home could be a potential target. Dark area, lake front, neighbors far away... I'm thinking of getting a security system. We did get a dog, but she's young and seems to sleep through anything.

Are there any here old enough to remember the plight of Harold Fish in AZ? Everything about his shooting a perp was within the law but he spent three yrs in prison before being released.

His conviction was based largely on using a gun more powerful that that of police, using expanding bullets that were made to kill and not retreating.

Might ought to put that into mind.

If I remember right, Fish had all kinds of stuff going on besides the 10mm, not least of which was running his mouth to police without an attorney.

Me, too, but mine's an 870 with #4 Buck.

Larry

I am Thankful that I live in Texas, a State with no duty to retreat, whether it is outside or inside my home. If inside my home, they will not get in without me knowing it, and I stay prepared at all times. I have no security alarm, no dogs to warn me, but nobody can get in without waking me and I think my three handguns are more than adequate to stop them at the entry point. Outside my home I care for a disabled family member and I have no duty to retreat anyway. I would never move to any State where the laws are otherwise. No I will not tell them take whatever you want, and rely upon their good will to let me go. If they try my vehicle I might if nobody was in it. But with a disabled family member any attempt at the vehicle,and I will be drawing and using my handguns. I may have to live around criminals because they seem to be recycled but I do not have to be a victim.

Not sure about that but what I have read of the case, it boiled down to an agressive, anti gun DA bringing up things like he used JHP rounds in a gun larger than that of any police agency and having the ability to walk away but did not. The DA was in an enviable position of Mr Fish having to prove his innocence rather than the State having to prove his guilt.

Most things said before getting an attorney can be suppressed and I have not seen where his attorney was concerned with suppression of evidence.

Having a good CRIMINAL DEFENSE attorney is always a good idea before talking to police. Not all attorneys are criminal defense attorneys. But all good criminal defense attorneys are expensive. I am working a case right now where the initial retainer by the attorney was $50K. But we can assume some atty will be willing to assist you initially after a shooting for maybe $5K. How many will have $5K laying around?

Some of you guys must have some monster-sized houses if you can realistically determine where the burglars are, wake your family up, get everyone into your "safe room" and then slay all the dragons without everyone tripping over each other before the big shootout starts on schedule. I think some of you have been watching too many movies! You should probably install inset steel plate in all of your walls too so all those high-powered, large bore rounds don't go through and through the house and either into your loved ones or the neighbors next door.

It's definitely more fun to talk about guns and safe rooms to preserve and prolong life and and prevent death or injury than it is to talk about diet and exercise to prevent the same alternative.

I think my "safe room" would be my bathroom. The bathtub is already steel, the walls have an inch of concrete and tile on them and there's a toilet and sink in there in case we have to poop during the siege or get thirsty.

Don't forget communications. You should have some sort of hands-free radio communications device so you can communicate with your family while you're taking care of business. Rehearse code names too: "Alpha Wolf, they're in sector 7-g, code 5!"

My poor kids wouldn't sleep for a month if I put them through regular home invasion drills...I'd be worried they'd be so scared when I came home at 3:00am and didn't yell out the password/challenge that they'd blast me before I got to the fridge.

Carry on.

When you've forced you way into my home you have demonstrated lethal force. And anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.

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- Change it back -

Or at the very least be able to pay a lawyer to explain to the prosecutor, jury and judge why you walked away without so much as a bloody nose after shooting an unarmed guy 3 times (for example). "He was yelling at me?" "He was waving his arms?" "He didn't have his dogs leashed?"

Some of you guys must have some monster-sized houses if you can realistically determine where the burglars are, wake your family up, get everyone into your "safe room" and then slay all the dragons without everyone tripping over each other before the big shootout starts on schedule. I think some of you have been watching too many movies! You should probably install inset steel plate in all of your walls too so all those high-powered, large bore rounds don't go through and through the house and either into your loved ones or the neighbors next door.

It's definitely more fun to talk about guns and safe rooms to preserve and prolong life and and prevent death or injury than it is to talk about diet and exercise to prevent the same alternative.

I think my "safe room" would be my bathroom. The bathtub is already steel, the walls have an inch of concrete and tile on them and there's a toilet and sink in there in case we have to poop during the siege or get thirsty.

Don't forget communications. You should have some sort of hands-free radio communications device so you can communicate with your family while you're taking care of business. Rehearse code names too: "Alpha Wolf, they're in sector 7-g, code 5!"

My poor kids wouldn't sleep for a month if I put them through regular home invasion drills...I'd be worried they'd be so scared when I came home at 3:00am and didn't yell out the password/challenge that they'd blast me before I got to the fridge

MaximumLawman, Very well put Thank you

I'm not sure why you would try to complicate such a simple task. Step 1, door alarm sounds. Step 2, dogs wake and head to the door, barking and growling. Step 3, Dad and Mom secure their handguns/home defense firearms, step across hallway to kids room, and shut and lock the door. Step 4, police are called and the family stays in the "safe room" with dispatch on the line until the police give the "all clear.

So simple even a cave man could do it......when only half awake. If you lack the cognizance to perform these simple actions, there is no reason to think you would be able to address a threat in a meaningful way regardless.

No way I'd wait for the police in the room with my wife and kids after some home invaders just kicked my door...I'd arrest them if possible or shoot them if necessary. They could steal a lot of stuff before the cops got there. Plus, I wouldn't want them to hurt the dog....

I kinda agree, but this whole thing assumes a lot. I think- I don't know cause it never happened, and each incident may have a different reaction- but I think I'd get the family into a dark, safe room and then work my way near the door. Hoping they didn't hear me coming, then I would do whatever is necessary. I've seen the SD shows where they suggest hiding and waiting for them to come to you, but I don't like that idea. Gotta remember all the potential scenarios- small house? different actions- 2-story house? different actions- huge mansion? differen.....two thugs? one action, 4 thugs? different action...etc

If you hear cans rattling and smell gas while you are hiding in your safe room, it may be time to get out and defend yourself...

They could be getting ready to light the match and get rid of the witnesses!

Don't shoot..it's me trying to fix the snow blower in the kitchen because I procrastinated during the Fall and it's 5 below and snowing outside........Yeah, yeah...I know....no home defense plan, no safe room and I waited til it snowed before I fixed the snow blower.....I'd never make it in Montana or Alaska but so far I've been able to keep the home invaders at bay in Detroit.....

It is at this point in the discussion when I feel compelled to ask: which is better, 9mm or .45? Seriously, that's what this discussion reminds me of. Simply put, a plan that works for a multistory house in a rural area occupied by a young couple with one small child will absolutely not work for an older retired couple living in a single-story ranch in a suburban neighborhood. Just as there is no "best" caliber, there is no "best" plan. A comprehensive safety plan needs to be tailored to many different facets: age, lifestyle, location, budget (telling a retired widow living on fixed income that she needs to spend money on a safe room when she's trying not to live on cat food two days a week is just asinine), mindset (no use espousing the use of firearms if the homeowner isn't 100% sure about using them if needed), and a laundry list of other variables. Bottom line is simple: Have a plan. Make sure everyone involved knows the plan. Prepare for contingencies. Practice the plan. Make sure your homeowner's insurance is current.

LMAO!!!!

Well said. If there was such a thing as a "one size fits all" home security plan, we'd all be using it. It doesn't exist.

At what point do you clarify with the prep whether he's going to beat you to a pulp or beat you to death? Exactly how do you ensure that one of his blows won't break your neck or send you stumbling back to crack your skull on the corner of the nightstand?

All I can say is:

1. There is going to be some seriously disappointed people from here if they ever are victims of a home invasion.

2. Every one needs a plan but some spend more time planning things than will be possible in a short period of time.

3. I bet not one of the "Think it through beforehand" people has been the vicitm of a home invasion.

4. Maybe it would be productive to talk with someone that has been a victim and then see how little time you have.

I have never been a vicitm and do not want to be but I have interviewed a lot that have and I have interviewed many that were the invaders. I have been spending the night at my mother's home following a long trip many years ago when a drunk broke in. He went to jail with a broken jaw and broken arm. I never had time to pull my sidearm before he was in and on me.

Unless you are dealing drugs, bringing home the cash take from a business, very old, invalid or have a lot of nice things that many people know about, you are not likely to be a vicitm.

From the standpoint of an invader, they are not coming in if they know someone is home unless the bounty is really going to be good.

Next, if the invader hears someone in the house, they would rather leave than face additional charges because witnesses are a liability.

Things happen so fast, all the planning in the world goes out the window.

Then when you shoot, you will be questioned for hours. Likely, if you even mention having a "plan" for such an event, you will be charged if the prosecutor has the slightest anti gun bone in his body. I have seen people prosecuted for a lot less such as considering the type ammo they had in their firearm.

But do not take my word for it. Call your local PD and ask that they send a specialist to your home to review your security, floorplan, living arrangement and potential risk. It will possibly take all your plans out of your mind.

Just as First Responders do not know what they will do at a scene because each call is different and must be dealt with as they find them, so is the home invasions. I have seen where three came in the front door and where two came in front and back door. I have seen where one was coming in a door while another came in a window. I have also seen where the resident was so afraid, they soiled their pants while holding a handgun. If one part of your plan goes wrong, the entire plan goes south.

Re: type of ammo getting you in trouble- Mas Ayoob also warns of modifying weapons, to make them more 'dangerous', more deadly.

In my home the bedrooms are all on the upper floor. Even so, if a BG broke in silently, he would quickly see no people are on the first floor and could easily make off with everything or he could come upstairs. The dog sleeps pretty soundly, so I don't think she'd wake up, although if she did she'd be more than happy to help him load his car with our stuff. She's a lab

We don't sleep with the bedroom doors locked. Should we? Should we put a simple booby trap on the stairs leading up? I know Legos and dog toys work well to trip me up in the dark... Maybe a motion sensor on the first floor?

I was friends for many yrs with an attorney. He and I went to school together and enjoy many good hunts over the yrs. Now deceased, he also enjoyed computers and was virtually hipnotized when on it. He would often be late for court due to him being on his computer for hours. One night, a burglar broke into the back door of his condo. Larry never heard the guy. The man made at least three trips in the house being quiet as he removed a couple of guns, a microwave and a toaster, all within 30 feet from Larry sitting in front of his computer screen. Larry heard the guy stumble and saw him trip. Larry pulled his gun and held the man for police. They searched his car and found items taken from Larry's condo.

A good burglar will not be heard just as good pickpocket will never be felt.

I bet we all have entered our homes and the spouses never heard us until we were in the same room. If this takes place while we are fully awake, think about what could happen if we were sleeping in the middle of the night.

Unless you shoot a family member or acquaintance or unless the police have any other reason to suspect you shot someone for some other motive than self-defense during a home invasion, why would you be questioned "for hours"? Especially if you're not under arrest, which you aren't likely to be if you're in your own house...

Good point Oldman45... I can sleep through almost anything, especially of I have 2 or 3 beers watching the game or something. And my dog doesn't hear the garage door open, the car door slam or the house door open.... My ears are getting real bad, and she just doesn't care what happens in the house.

I actually HAVE been the victim of a home invasion, and it took place while myself, a friend, and her 2 young children were in her house. The intruder was very much aware that we were there. I just happened to be a guest that night who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Some prior planning could have done a WORLD of good in this situation as the young lady might have actually had some notion of what actions to take rather than leaving me to try to fend off the intruder and look out for her kids while she basically went into hysterics and ran out the back door. Heck, she could have at least got her kids to a safe place so I could have focused all of my attention on the intruder. As it was, after I dealt with him, I still had to go find her kids and make sure they were safe while trying to watch my back the whole time.

Unfortunately, it happened at her house in Illinois where I didn't have the luxury of being armed at the time. I was left to fight off a guy with at least a 50 lb. weight advantage over me, who was high on crack cocaine, and who couldn't have cared less what kind of "loot" was in the house. It turned out to be her ex-boyfriend who was only interested in harming her and anyone else in the house. Of course, had it been my home and my family, there would have been some prior planning in place for dealing with a forced entry and the outcome would have likely ended up a bit different for the guy that kicked in the door.

The reality is, there are many different reasons a person might break into a home. While the most likely is probably the type you describe above, you certainly can't count on it, and you definitely can't count on a home invader running the other way just because he/she suddenly discovers that someone is home. My personal experience taught me in no uncertain terms, that a home invasion can escalate into a fight for your life in just a few seconds. Like I said earlier in this thread, having multiple layers of protection is ideal, and for the very reasons you mentioned - because you never know how or when something like that might happen.

Your jurisdiction makes a big difference, too. If I shot someone who broke into my home in the middle of the night, I would expect the interrogation to go something like this;

Sheriff--"What happened?"

Me--"I heard him kick the door down and I got up and shot him 'cause he was coming at me."

Sheriff--"Damn! Glad nobody got hurt!"

This particular incident took place in Buckhead, a very ritzy section of Atlanta, last week. Apparently, the intruder was unarmed, but what was the homeowner supposed to do? Throw down his gun so it would be a fair fight? I don't know if I would have fired a warning shot and I don't know whether I would have fired the second shot into his leg.
Burglar ignores shotgun warning, is shot by Buckhead homeowner  | ajc.com

Anyhow, thank God for Georgia!

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Georgia On My Mind

From: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf page 37:

In California a jury decides if you used reasonable force, after the DA decides if he has a winable case. Either scenario I think you need plenty of money for a good lawyer. It helps to know the laws of your jurisdiction.

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Hook686

I live in California. Overall I feel I would be safe in a court defending my situation if I had to use deadly force of somebody kicking in my front or back doors. I am seriousely thinking of liability insurance, I think the NRA has it for it's members? Maybe someone here knows more on the topic of liability insurance.

It is just so damm sad that some poor old ladys drug addicted son kicks in a door and gets shot dead in the progress and, the criminals family member hires an attorney to sue you for everything you own. You may be scott free from criminal court but the liability of a civil case can be a sticky situation.

Never the less, this shouldn't be a deturing issue to protecting yourself or your family while in your house. I really wish California law makers would establish a "castle doctrine" here in Ca. It is just getting real bad all over with criminals and the cops are not parked in my driveway so, I'll keep my guns at the ready.

My daughter is an insurance agent, she informed me a few years ago- many are probably aware already- that you can get a 1 million dollar umbrella policy for what- maybe $100 a year...it's extra liability for anything happening on your property. Very smart thing to do- funny my 30-year-younger kid had to teach me that. I really would ask my homeowners' insurance agent.

I have a million dollar umbrella policy on my rental property in town. I mainly have it there because I have a pool in that backyard and am afraid something could very well 'murphys law' happen. My wife and me have enough to be concerned about loosing what we have invested. But a million umbrella is a reasonably priced and well advised thing to get just to cover what the regular policy fails to. I may get one for here but I'm going to look at this NRA stuff first.

Well, I think it's more easy to talk about it than actually be in the situation. If you are in an life threatening situation like this you do whatever it takes to protect you and your family.

And btw, it's not only at 3am in the morning. Situations like this also happens in the brightest daylight afternoon.

Some people are sick and you never know what their intention is.

So even if somebody rings the door bell - it happened to me - on an saturday afternoon and want to sell me something I'm ALERT!

IF somebody tries to hurt you you definately don't think about laws, period!

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Jorge

I agree, that's why Ayoob says you have to practice many situations. Ashas been said you can't prepare for them all, and chances are you won't ractice what happens in your case. But the more scenarios you play through in your head, over and over, the better prepared you'll be to make the right decision when whatever happens. I don't do it nearly enough.

Texas has a law preventing that. If it's a good shoot, you can't be sued.


Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY [AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE]. A [It is an affirmative defense to a civil action for damages for personal injury or death that the] defendant who uses force or[, at the time the cause of action arose, was justified in using] deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 [Section 9.32], Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of deadly force.

California is so screwedup when it comes to certain laws like these. I sometimes wonder where on earth do the people come from who sues others when they are defending themselves. BTW, how did that old boy that was on the news turn out? Couple years ago he had the police on the line and racked his shotgun shooting one or both of the burlars who was stealing from his neighbor, he was from Texas?

Best I can recall, he was acquitted.

I added the Texas statute to my post above.

I am not an attorney and can't give legal advice.

Two conditions are permissible to use self defense when your home has been invaded and that is the term of appropriate force and equitable force. People should realize that even though the police and the DA can find that an incident is self defense the injured party and/or their relatives of the injured party can mount a suit to recoup damages caused by the victim when defending himself or herself against assailant. The force must be appropriate to the situation. If the home invaders or attacker isn't using deadly force against the victim the victim can't respond with deadly force against the invader or attacker. There are certain instances where deadly force can be used against an attacker and that is in the case of a rape or in the circumstance where the victim size and/or strength are insufficient to mount appropriate force to the threat of an attacker. The standard for a tort action is determined by the amount of damages caused and the amount excessive force that was caused by the victim against the attacker. Reviewing State Law is important to realizing how much force use can use in regards to an attack on a person or in the home. Certain conditions will apply in your state. A tort lawsuit is much easier to win than in a murder trial because a unanimous decision isn't required to win. Example in Colorado was a case where the police and the DA judge a case where a robber invasion was self defense but a tort case was brought by the daughter for damages in the death of her father. The court ruled against the victims because the court found that the victims had used excessive force against the robber. The daughter was awarded $270,000.

In Missouri, those type of tort cases are specifically barred.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Which are the very worst states? I am assuming possible california and new york. Also, I had a neighbor who lives with his mother, been on drug rehab, anger management, a total 35 year old screwball. I've had two restraining orders against him (I've kept a well documented file on police reports)because of threats of force and violence, we moved but I see him around from time to time. I would assume (assume) the courts may have a understanding towards me if I had to shoot this guy defending myself. But, being I live in california it is hard to call.

Living in Florida and have read the castle law many times as well I feel very comfortable with defending my home and property. I live in a seniors park and really don't expect a crack head breaking in and stealing my geritol bottle.... but if the situation did arise I would not hesitate to defend myself and wife with lethal force. The crime rate is down in the state and that is mainly do to many homeowners having firearms in their homes. If you shot someone in your home and you applied the castle law as intended in Florida you can not be charged and you can not be sued by the slugs family for compensation for lost wages. Chances are you will never get into that situation because as stated before in other posts but I can sleep sound in the sunshine state with my S&W by the bed knowing I can use it as needed.

Well, geting sued for loss compensation does not apply with this dirtbag, he has never held down a job in his 30+years, it angers me when I see waste of human dna on earth taking up air, but that's another story or thread, lol. Me and my wife were in Florida two years ago, pan-handle area visiting relatives in Madison. I could not believe how gun friendly they are there, I thought I died and went to heaven. I saw Confederate flags flying in front of homes in the country, wholly cow out here there would be a massing of the liberals crying ________fill in the blank. I really enjoyed Florida, humidity was bad though.

Maryland: Governor O’Malley Signs Self-Defense Reform Bill! (Castle Doctrine!)

Maryland did pass and was actually signed into law by gov. o'malley (surprise surprise) the Castle Doctrine.

I'm in NC. As of 12/1/2011 we have a true Castle doctrine. Prior to 12/1 we had a duty to retreat even in our own home. Deadly force was allowed only as a BG was entering the home. Once in, unless they provided a threat, you had to leave them alone.

Now, with the Castle Doctrine in place, the presumption is that a BG is there to do bodily harm and deadly force is justified. The Castle Doctrine extend to your home, car or place of work.

calif doesn't have the retreat or castle doctrine but, I feel alright with what penal code 195.5 says about defending yourself. It would just make things I think alot easier for us in a california court if we did have such a doctrine in place. I wonder how this would apply to someone like me in california if I was working in my backyard and or garage and somebody tried to do injury on me or my family on my property but no in the dwelling.


CA. Penal Code 198.5


198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred. As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury.


Also according to the Judicial Council of California's Criminal Jury Instructions (CALCRIM 2011) dated October 29, 2010:

[A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of (death/great bodily injury/ <insert forcible and atrocious crime>) has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating.]

The one element missing is protection from civil suits. Is that the reason "California is not a Castle Doctrine state and has no stand-your-ground law."

Don't care what the law says, but anyone who breaks into my house better retreat. But fortunately, where I live, I have no obligation to retreat anywhere that I have a lawful right to be. That includes anywhere outside my home that is legal for me to be.

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otis

holy cow! what a thread. kind of hard to argue about each individual state's laws compared to the other! either you have a duty to retreat or you don't. If you don't like your state laws then 1)move - not too easy, 2)make sure you vote,join the NRA and are vocal, 3)shoot em anyways! Easy for me to say though since I live in a "castle doctrine" state. After reading all this though I see 2 main points of contetion: 1)arguments about the various laws of each state and 2)the interpretation of the law within each state. As far as the first one, the individual states have statues in place that address this issue and can be easily found by going to the specified states web site. 2) is a little more difficult to deal with. The interpretation of a statue or law is ultimately up to congress/judge or jury. This is why we have the Suprmeme court! (not so supreme sometimes though). It is up to each of as individuals to read, interpret and seek appropriate counsel and advice on said subjects. What you do with that advoce is up to you. Interestingly enough though, in Florida it does not have to be an intruder per say. The law specifically states even someone initially invited/allowed inside your home that presents a sudden threat to body or life to youself or family can be defended against. It is not the same in all states so be careful who you let in! Anyways, what a thread. Can see how this can get contentious!