357 Magnum carbine defense ammo

[Cal44]

I have recently acquired a Marlin 1894C.

It's a 357 Magnum lever gun with an 18 inch barrel and a 9 round magazine tube.

I'm thinking of keeping it loaded and handy for defending our home.

What would you recommend for a defense load.

I'm talking factory loads.

[Echo40]

Hornady Leverevolution 140gr and Barnes VOR-TX 140gr come to mind, both are hunting loads tailored specifically for Lever Action Rifles.

[Struckat]

I held one of those awhile back. Very nice rifle, have you shot it yet?

[Cal44]

Originally Posted by Struckat

I held one of those awhile back. Very nice rifle, have you shot it yet?

Yes it shoots very nicely and is accurate.

I bought it off a friend, and it's a 1980's JM model.

I hear the current Marlin (Remington) products are quite nice also.

[Struckat]

I was looking at a new one, it was nice. I just have to find a way to “Need” it.

[rwsmith]

I'm trying to remember where I saw it just recently. I'm pretty sure it was Paul Harrell, where he tested pistol caliber carbines in gel and probably his 'meat target'. The jist of it was that pistol bullets pushed past pistol velocities don't perform well. I can't remember what calibers he tested, but .357 magnums are pretty stout out of a revolver and I'm not sure that extra velocity from a carbine would be that much.

Anyway, I prefer pistol caliber carbines as being the easiest to handle and I was put on notice to check out how the bullet performs at the velocities that they will be used.

I don't really have a carbine that I would trust in SD duty. I have a semi auto Kel tec sub 2000 in 9mm. I don't use it for SD but I'm much more natural and comfortable and I'm thinking about getting something a little more suitable for the purpose than a 'fun gun'. Maybe a Beretta PX4 Storm carbine. or at least the Ruger carbine.

PS: I can't imagine a .357 magun out of a carbine not being 'effective'.

[squidsix]

I have a Rossi 92 in .357 MAG and find it groups best with 180 grain hardcast stuff, so that is what I use in it. If you practice enough, you can get 5-6 empty shells in the air at once. The most fun I have gotten out of gun money in many many years. Mine is shortened a hair, bringing it to 32.25 inches overall. Very handy little sucker.

[JayFramer]

158 grain Federal SJHP Personal Defense loads.

Will be screaming from that carbine barrel. Devastating.

The 125 grain version had a stellar reputation from 4” revolver barrels. Might have too much expansion in a carbine. I’d go with the 158 grain or even 180 grain in a carbine.

[BB57]

I like the Federal 158 gr JSP in either it's American Eagle or Champion loadings (never been able to see any difference). They produce 2 MOA accuracy at 100 yards and produce 1820 fps in a 20" barrel.

They expand poorly at revolver velocities, but are very effective at the 1800 fps carbine/rifle velocities.

[BAM-BAM]

I've got a Winchester Trapper and Ruger 77/357 .. .357 carbine...... both get loaded with 158gr SJSP as a ''general purpose'' load.... in Penn's Woods.

For a <75 yd PDW in a PCC I prefer a Beretta CX4 with 20 or 30 rounds of 9mm HP

[bigwheelzip]

A Rossi 92 in .357 is my HD choice. My utility round is the .357 American Eagle 158gr JSP, AE357A, in 50 round boxes.

It performs great from my Rossi at the range, and isn't an unnecessarily expensive specialized round. I believe our forum member Faulkner uses this round in a lever rifle, for taking deer in the Ozarks.

[Goldstar225]

I have a Marlin 1894. In the event I need it to protect my family I'll use my deer hunting handload of a Remington 158 JSP which exits the barrel at 1890 FPS.

If I were to select a factory load specifically to defend with it would be a 158 grain JHP from a reputable manufacturer (Remington, Federal, Hornady etc....)

[bigggbbruce]

Something heavy for caliber, 180gr.. it is a rifle and velocity will be there.

I have a Ruger 44 Carbine and it adds punch to an already potent round..

[BC38]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

I'm trying to remember where I saw it just recently. I'm pretty sure it was Paul Harrell, where he tested pistol caliber carbines in gel and probably his 'meat target'. The jist of it was that pistol bullets pushed past pistol velocities don't perform well. I can't remember what calibers he tested, but .357 magnums are pretty stout out of a revolver and I'm not sure that extra velocity from a carbine would be that much.

Anyway, I prefer pistol caliber carbines as being the easiest to handle and I was put on notice to check out how the bullet performs at the velocities that they will be used.

I don't really have a carbine that I would trust in SD duty. I have a semi auto Kel tec sub 2000 in 9mm. I don't use it for SD but I'm much more natural and comfortable and I'm thinking about getting something a little more suitable for the purpose than a 'fun gun'. Maybe a Beretta PX4 Storm carbine. or at least the Ruger carbine.

PS: I can't imagine a .357 magun out of a carbine not being 'effective'.

FWIW, according to data posted at Ballistics By The Inch most 357 ammo seems to hit peak velocities out of about a 16" barrel, and that peak is approximately 400 fps or 20%-25% faster than the same ammo out of a 4" barrel.

Velocity Data
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .357 Mag Results

That increase in velocity results in an approximate doubling of the muzzle energy from around 600ft/lbs to 1100-1200 ft/lbs

Muzzle Energy Data
Ballistics by the inch

Seems like some pretty significant increases to me.

[Borderboss]

I really like Remington 180gr SJHP for my Marlin Cowboy with a 24-inch barrel. It'll expand well in both pistol and rifle.

[scatter shot]

American Eagle 158 grain JSP is my choice for my 1894C as the best all around cartridge for range, deer hunting, etc..
Easy to find in most stores, rock solid round out to 100 yards.

[white cloud]

I have killed a number of whitetails with a .357 rifle. All were one shot kills. All bullets were complete pass throughs. Tissue damage was impressive in all cases. I had great blood trails in all cases. I used the Hornady 158 grain XTP hollow point over 16.7 grains of H110. Note that I have been solemly advised that the hollow point XTP would explode on a deer when fired from a carbine. I completely disagree. I consider a .357 rifle to be an excellent choice for deer hunting at ranges less than 100 yards when the shooter can shoot. If I were choosing a .357 rifle for self defense in an urban setting, I would be feeling very well armed. I have absolutely no confidence in jello tests.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by BC38

FWIW, according to data posted at Ballistics By The Inch most 357 ammo seems to hit peak velocities out of about a 16" barrel, and that peak is approximately 400 fps or 20%-25% faster than the same ammo out of a 4" barrel.

Velocity Data
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .357 Mag Results

You have to take the BBTI data with a huge grain of salt, especially when it comes to barrel length for peak velocity.

The problem is their methodology. They shoot 3 rounds of each type of ammo in each barrel length, but shoot it across two chronographs placed in line to get 6 data points. That isn't 6 data points, it's still 3 data points now confused by 2 chronograph measurements a few fps apart. Even if it were 6 data points, that's about 1/3 rd the number you need to start getting reasonably reliable (repeatable) data.

Let's demonstrate this with the numbers for the Federal 158 grain load. First, let's look at the 7", 8", 9" and 10" data:

7" = 1517 fps, SD = 10.3 fps
8" = 1570 fps, SD = 14.6 fps
9" = 1563 fps, SD = 37.9 fps
10" = 1630 fps, SD = 13.1

You see a 53 fps increase between 7" and 8", then a 7 fps loss between 8" and 9" followed by a 67 fps increase between 9" and 10". The average velocity for just 3 shots at 8" was probably higher than would have been the case with a reasonable sample size of 10-15 rounds. Conversely, the average of the 3 rounds fired at 9" was probably lower than would be the case with a reasonable sample size.

You are also seeing the other effect of small sample size, where the standard deviation in velocity far exceeds the difference between velocities in adjacent barrel lengths, particularly in the 7", 8" and 9" length data.

Next let's look at the 11+ to 14" data. You see a 9 fps increases between 11" and 12" and a 20 fps increases between 12" and 13", and then a huge increase of 58 fps from 13" to 14", with a large SD in the 14" data.

Most of this is probably due to small sample size errors, but some of the data in some of the lengths may be due to variation in bore size along the bore. Tighter sections of bore will produce more velocity per inch than looser sections of bore, and BBTI isn't using high quality air gauged barrels hand lapped for consistency.

As background on Standard Deviation, that 23.4 fps SD means that the expected range in velocity over 100 shots with that load/barrel length would be +/- 3 SD, or in other words 6 times the SD, or 140.4 fps. Here, in the 3 shot data collected at 14" there was a range of 59 fps. Normally, you'd expect 68 out of 100 shots to fall within 1 SD of the mean, but the odds are that you'll get a shot 2 SD from the mean about 27 shots out of a 100 and 5 times out of 100 you'll get one that falls in the 3rd SD from the mean. Which means about 1/3rd of the time using 3 shot samples, you'll get a shot that screws up your average.

You see that here in the 14", 15" and 16" data and you are seeing it again in the 16", 17" and 18" data.

11" = 1643 fps, SD = 9.8 fps
12" = 1654 fps, SD = 12.1 fps
13" = 1674 fps, SD = 5.23 fps
14" = 1732 fps, SD = 23.4 fps
15" = 1708 fps, SD = 18.8 fps
16" = 1739 fps, SD= 19.5 fps
17" = 1689 fps, SD = 16.4 fps
18" = 1719 fps, SD = 20.5 fps

Even if all the shots fall within 1 SD at 18" you can expect a spread of 40 fps, which is greater than the difference between the 17" average velocity the 18" velocity. Similarly, at 16" the expected spread at 1 SD is still 39 fps, and that's again greater than the difference between the 17" velocity and the 15" velocity.

That means that even at the relatively low 1 SD, 68% confidence interval there is no significant difference between the 16" and 17" velocities or the 17" and 18" velocities.

In short, that means there is no evidence in the data that a peak velocity has occurred. And then of course BBTI data starts at 18" so they never collected data for the .357 Mag in longer barrels.

I happen to own Rossi 92 rifles in 20" short rifle and 24" rifle patterns and I happen to have collected 30 shot sample data at each barrel length with this same Federal load.

Interestingly enough I get an average velocity of 1807 fps in the 20" barrel and 1820 fps in the 24" barrel. That's only 13 fps over a 4" change in barrel length but:

1) it's reliable data;
2) it's still an increase per inch; and
3) it's a lot higher than the 16" and 18" BBTI data showing that there is indeed an increase past 16", and a large enough difference to offset any bore related differences.

----

Now...there is a point of diminishing returns for each cartridge and load combination where you get less velocity per inch, and that extra barrel length stops being worth the extra length and weight. In the case of the .357 Magnum, I'll agree 4" more barrel for 13 fps more velocity is not worth it (although balance of the rifle, a slightly lower SD in velocity, etc might still cause someone to choose a longer barrel).

In the .223 Stoner used an 18" tube in the AR-18 and AR-180, Ruger used an 18" barrel on the Mini-14, and the Israelis used an 18" barrel on the Galil, in large part because 18" is the sweet spot for the 55 gr .223. You can get more velocity at 20" and still more velocity at 24" and 26", but it's generally agreed that the rate of velocity increase per each additional inch of barrel starts to decline after 18". The velocity still increases, just not as much per inch as it did at shorter barrel lengths.

Conversely the rate of loss of velocity per each inch of reduction in barrel length increases as the barrel gets shorter than 18" in the .223.

Unfortunately, many shooters misunderstand what that means and start saying things that are totally incorrect, like "a .357 Magnum bullet will start slowing down in barrels longer than 16 inches", or more often " a .22 LR bullet will start slowing down in barrels longer than 16 inches."

Even in .22 LR that's not the case, I have 16", 18" 20" 24" 26" and even 28" .22 LR rifles and the velocity of even standard velocity ammo will continue to increase, just at progressively smaller amounts per inch. However, the SD also decreases in those longer barrels, so you get more consistent velocities, and that in combination with a longer sight radius is why you seen longer barrels on smallbore match and target rifles.

With the .22 rimfire, a .22 CB cap powered only by the primer compound might start slowing down in long barrel. However, for just about everything else, the distance in the barrel where the combined resistance of the bore and the pressure of the air in front of the bullet is greater than pressure of the gas behind the bullet is measured in yards, not inches.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by white cloud

I have killed a number of whitetails with a .357 rifle. All were one shot kills. All bullets were complete pass throughs. Tissue damage was impressive in all cases. I had great blood trails in all cases. I used the Hornady 158 grain XTP hollow point over 16.7 grains of H110. Note that I have been solemly advised that the hollow point XTP would explode on a deer when fired from a carbine. I completely disagree. I consider a .357 rifle to be an excellent choice for deer hunting at ranges less than 100 yards when the shooter can shoot. If I were choosing a .357 rifle for self defense in an urban setting, I would be feeling very well armed. I have absolutely no confidence in jello tests.

The XTP bullets were all designed for moderate expansion to around 1.5 to 1.55 times their starting diameter and the produce a more traditional mushroom shape. That really prevents them from over expanding and under penetrating, and they are a very good choice for a general purpose hunting and self defense bullet in a carbine.

[bigwheelzip]

Originally Posted by BB57

I happen to own Rossi 92 rifles in 20" short rifle and 24" rifle patterns and I happen to have collected 30 shot sample data at each barrel length with this same Federal load.

Interestingly enough I get an average velocity of 1807 fps in the 20" barrel and 1820 fps in the 24" barrel. That's only 13 fps over a 4" change in barrel length but:

1) it's reliable data;
2) it's still an increase per inch; and
3) it's a lot higher than the 16" and 18" BBTI data showing that there is indeed an increase past 16", and a large enough difference to offset any bore related differences.

Thanks for posting the results of your careful research. It's good to see the velocity numbers from the 24 inch Rossi 92 .357, which is my preferred home defense firearm.

The "seat of the pants" experience with the 92 told me it put more "zip" in the rounds, but that is not why I liked it for home defense. The long barrel takes what is normally a very loud cartridge in my revolvers, and reduces it to a relative whisper. It makes my favorite .357 cartridge also my quietest.

Optionally, it seems to add enough velocity to .38SPL, that it puts it in the potent energy realm for home defense of the magnum from a handgun, while being even quieter.

[Ivan the Butcher]

I had a number of 1894's in 357 and still have a 92 Rossi.

If you carry a 38 or 357 now, the easiest thing is to try some of that ammo in what you consider a real test. If the bullets perform up to your standards it only cost you 20 or so rounds of ammo.

Those rifles have an extra long spring and magazine follower.. My last one was so over powered, that I trimmed 6" of spring and around 1/2 inch of follower. It held 10 rounds of what I carry in my EDC J-Frame!

My J-Frame will kill ad SD distances with 38's you can kill them 2x dead with +P, or you can kill them 3x dead with 357's!

Now if we are talking carrying my 28-2 with a 180 gr 357 mag load, that is my original 100 yard or less Deer Load in my 1894! But that load is too much for J-Frames (or at least too much for me in a J-Frame!)

I Thought the idea with pistol caliber carbines is to match ammo with a hand gun, otherwise a light rifle round is a better choice!

Ivan

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by JayFramer

158 grain Federal SJHP Personal Defense loads.

Will be screaming from that carbine barrel. Devastating.

The 125 grain version had a stellar reputation from 4” revolver barrels. Might have too much expansion in a carbine. I’d go with the 158 grain or even 180 grain in a carbine.

I'm running on memory, but I think a lot of pistol bullets actually come apart, which, again, might not be the worst thing to have a few 50 grain chunks screaming through flest.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

Thanks for posting the results of your careful research. It's good to see the velocity numbers from the 24 inch Rossi 92 .357, which is my preferred home defense firearm.

The "seat of the pants" experience with the 92 told me it put more "zip" in the rounds, but that is not why I liked it for home defense. The long barrel takes what is normally a very loud cartridge in my revolvers, and reduces it to a relative whisper. It makes my favorite .357 cartridge also my quietest.

Optionally, it seems to add enough velocity to .38SPL, that it puts it in the potent energy realm for home defense of the magnum from a handgun, while being even quieter.

Absolutely. I have a 9mm AR-15 carbine and a 9mm AR pistol with an 8.3" barrel. The 16" carbine puts out 117 dB, while the 8.3" carbine only puts out 120 dB. The 16" carbine also drives 124 gr hollow point at just under 1580 fps.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

I'm running on memory, but I think a lot of pistol bullets actually come apart, which, again, might not be the worst thing to have a few 50 grain chunks screaming through flest.

You mean on impact (not in flight) I presume?
If you can find any links to that info I'd sure like to see it.
Naturally those kinds of issues would be dependent on the construction of the bullet of course. I can't see where a semi-jacketed soft point 357 handgun bullet would be any more prone to fragmentation than a semi-jacketed soft point 30-06 bullet. If that is an issue I'd like to learn more about why.

[Cal44]

Originally Posted by BC38

I can't see where a semi-jacketed soft point 357 handgun bullet would be any more prone to fragmentation than a semi-jacketed soft point 30-06 bullet. If that is an issue I'd like to learn more about why.

Well there are reasons. The jacket on a rifle bullet may be thicker. It may be bonded to the core more securely. The jacket may be a stronger alloy of copper (or whatever they use).

I do shoot quite a bit of Blazer Brass 158gr JHP as practice ammo for 357 Magnum revolvers.

Perhaps that would be a good choice for my carbine.

And it's inexpensive.

I only use it for practice because I can't count on it to expand when fired from a revolver.

But from a 18.5" carbine, it probably would expand.

[bigwheelzip]

Originally Posted by BB57

Absolutely. I have a 9mm AR-15 carbine and a 9mm AR pistol with an 8.3" barrel. The 16" carbine puts out 117 dB, while the 8.3" carbine only puts out 120 dB. The 16" carbine also drives 124 gr hollow point at just under 1580 fps.

Great info there, thanks.

I'd love to see a sound chart, similar to the velocities in BBTI's charts, since noise is a concern, especially with .357 revolvers.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[white cloud]

At the range I can't tell a lot of difference in report of a .357 carbine round and a 5.56 fired from a 16" AR. This observation is VERY unscientific but that is what it seems like to me. Both of these sound a lot quieter than my hunting .357 round fired from a revolver. I don't shoot a lot of 9MM so can't comment on that. If things "head south", I pray that I have a long gun available. To that end I keep one in both of my vehicles.

[bigwheelzip]

Originally Posted by white cloud

At the range I can't tell a lot of difference in report of a .357 carbine round and a 5.56 fired from a 16" AR.

I'd imagine your talking about an outdoor range, because at an indoor range, a 5.56 AR sounds MUCH louder than any pistol round to me.

This matters mostly because we're talking about potential indoor home defense use.



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[derek45auto]

Here's some chrony data from my 16" Rossi 92



22gr H110 125SJHP 2241fps

19gr H110 140xtp 1963fps

17.3gr H110 158xtp 1748fps

6.1gr win231 158swc 1280fps

6.4gr win231 158swc 1338fps

17gr H110 168gr SWC-GC 1882fps

[Donn]

I've got a Henry Big Boy 357. Never thought of it as a first choice HD gun, but if I did, seems to me a 158gr semi wad cutter hollow points would be a decent choice. That said, the new Super Vel 110gr spun copper hollow points interest me, for rifle and/or revolver.

[derek45auto]

Originally Posted by pocketshaver

Its not a question of what will feed, or how much energy it will have.

The question to ask it, how much are you surpassing that bullets velocity threshold?

Bullets are designed for a velocity range, the XTP,,, push a high velocity bullet too slow, its an fmj. push a low velocity 38 special xtp to magnum velocity, it explodes on contact.

yep
I suspect a 125grSJHP at 2200fps would be like a varmit bullet
probably good for coyotes

[Borderboss]

Originally Posted by pocketshaver

push a low velocity 38 special xtp to magnum velocity, it explodes on contact.

Sorry, but I would have to see it to believe it. "Explodes on contact". Really?? Certain SJHP rounds may shed some metal after a few inches of penetration, but the majority of the bullet will hold together just fine.

In these days of bullets designed for expansion and penetration, you're not going to be able to push the bullet fast enough in a .357 to have it literally come apart.

[roo_ster]

A lever gun in a magnum cartridge is a fine HD gun. Maybe a bit noisy, but not as noisy as an AR-15 indoors.

Pretty much any full power 158gr JHP/SJHP will do the trick. Move up to 180gr if you want more penetration, but the 158s do the trick, even at carbine velocities.

Before my wife went with a modified 12ga pump, her go-to HD long gun was a Rossi 92 in .44mag. She preferred my mild LSWC handloads at 1000fps as the hot 180gr and 240gr JHP/SJHP loads were too sporty.

[Tyree1867]

I would be remiss if I did not mention that Buffalo Bore has a number of excellent .357M cartridges, including my deer load-180gr hard cast LFN. BB lists this as the Outdoorsman. It is very effective in my Marlin 1894 CSBL.

[Ethang]

You are overthinking this. Any quality 357 load is going to work just fine for home defense out of a carbine. Personally I would choose a 158 JHP load, but even the 125's will be just fine for the purpose.