Orphan Cartridge

[SixGunSancho]

Decades ago, the FBI load was the definitive Chief Special self-defense round. For self-defense, semis have just about completely pushed revolvers into orphanages. But there are circumstances where revolvers have legitimate utility. The question is whether that FBI load has retained its supremacy as the definitive self-defense cartridge.

I will admit to encouraging expanding populations of handgun orphanages. Hence, I'm outta touch with short-barrel (Model 66-8 2.75") .38 Special self-defense ammo. How's Speer Gold Dot 135 .38 Special +P ammo? Is there a better choice? Or is the FBI load still the ammo to put in K-Frames?

[OKFC05]

For short barrel 66s and 65s, my commercial choice for defense is the Speer Short Barrel .357 magnum. I can't speak for others. I use the .38 version of the Speer load in a 442.

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Without butter, please.

[ISCS Yoda]

I use Winchester Silvertips, Remington Golden Saber, or Hornady Critical Defense in my .38 caliber concealed carry revolvers. I don't worry much about what the FBI does or did. I do not load +P, I wouldn't even own a J frame .357, I think they answer a question that nobody asked, but a 2.5" Model 19 is a different kettle of fish. I'd still use the ammo I named or, if I find some, 158 grain LRNs or HPs. Never .357 because it's not my job to penetrate engine blocks or otherwise over penetrate anything.

[ContinentalOp]

The Speer .38 Special 135gr SB-GDHP +P has established a solid track record with NYPD and other agencies. It's my preferred J-frame snubby load.

However, there's nothing wrong with the FBI load as it also established a solid track record and would be my second choice if I couldn't find the Speer load. I still have a box or two of the Buffalo Bore version (standard pressure) on hand, but I'd be ok with the Remington version (or Winchester...or Federal...).

When I had K-frames, a 3" 65 and a 2" 64, I usually carried them loaded with the BB FBI load or the Speer .38 Special load. I also had some of the Speer SB-GDHP .357 Magnum load for the 65, but in my limited experience (it's been quite a few years since I've had a .357) it was harder to find than the .38 Special version. Plus the .38 Special version can be found in 50-round boxes.

[BAM-BAM]

Once you get past.... HP vs. FMJ........I think you reach a point where all you're doing is "splitting hairs".

Good shot placement and fast followup shots (double tap) are more important in my opinion.

[robertrwalsh]

Shot placement is criteria #1. Adequate penetration is criteria #2. Everything else is largely academic.

[GerSan69]

My old department used Gold Dot before I retired. I used it in my off-duty guns back then, and ever since leaving in every caliber I own.
Glad you brought this up. I've been retired for five years so it's time to check in with the firearms section and see if there are any updates!

[Echo40]

I imagine that it's every bit as effective as it ever was, before and after the FBI had a knee-jerk reaction to one instance of it failing in an extremely botched bust which they desperately needed a scapegoat for.

Seriously, up until the Miami Shootout the .38 Special had a long, evidently successful career in Law Enforcement, when suddenly is was declared inadequate because of one very specific case of underpenetration against someone who was using a vehicle as cover, only to be replaced by another cartridge which has since been recently retired as well.

Much like every other cartridge which is commonly used in self-defense, the .38 Special FBI load is effective, and has a history of proven effectiveness in the field of Law Enforcement.

People honestly need to learn that Law Enforcement ceasing to use a cartridge does not indicate that the cartridge is completely ineffective, merely that it no longer suits the individual needs of the department in which it was previously issued. Law Enforcement across the globe uses a variety of different firearms, cartridges, and bullet designs. Yeah, 9mm Luger is the most popular cartridge in the field of Law Enforcement right now, but obviously it wasn't so previously, and even now there are still departments using other cartridges. For example, my State Police had recently adopted .45 ACP within the past few years, regardless of the fact that many other departments including local ones had switched to 9mm Luger, heedless of the FBI's statements that their testing had concluded that modern 9mm Luger is equally as effective as .45 ACP. Heck, did you know that police in Hong Kong are still using .38 Special? I guess word must not travel very fast that the rest of the world has for the most part has switched to 9mm Luger or otherwise something must have been lost in translation, otherwise they surely would have made the switch as well, right? After all, individuality is such an outdated concept, and 9mm has been declared the ultimate, one-size-fits-all cartridge for Law Enforcement. You know, until it isn't...Again...

[SixGunSancho]

Originally Posted by GerSan69

My old department used Gold Dot before I retired. I used it in my off-duty guns back then, and ever since leaving in every caliber I own.
Glad you brought this up. I've been retired for five years so it's time to check in with the firearms section and see if there are any updates!

I've recently had my weapon inspected. I bought a box of Speer Gold Dot LE Duty Ammunition 135 Grain +P. An armorer of my former agency said it was excellent ammo, and he's a retired cop.

I bought a box (50 rounds) of W-W FBI load some 38 years ago when I got in to LE. I still have that box.

[SixGunSancho]

Good Morning Dirty Harry Callahan,

I do not believe that it was cartridge as much as gun that was impetus for the LE transition from revolvers to semis. Excellent quality DA semis had demonstrated increased reliability rivaling revolver reliability. Add more rounds, faster and easier reloads, and revolvers were headed for LE obsolescence.

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan

I imagine that it's every bit as effective as it ever was, before and after the FBI had a knee-jerk reaction to one instance of it failing in an extremely botched bust which they desperately needed a scapegoat for.
.

The round that “failed” on 4/11/86 (known outside the Bureau as the Miami Shootout) was the 9mm Silvertip fired by Jerry Dove.

The round that killed both murderers was the FBI load - the +P .38 Special lead hollowpoint. It worked just fine.

[Echo40]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

The round that “failed” on 4/11/86 (known outside the Bureau as the Miami Shootout) was the 9mm Silvertip fired by Jerry Dove.

The round that killed both murderers was the FBI load - the +P .38 Special lead hollowpoint. It worked just fine.

Actually, I was thinking of the shot that William Matix took to the head from a .38 Special.

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan

Actually, I was thinking of the shot that William Matix took to the head from a .38 Special.

The one that kept him from shooting anyone else?

The .38 FBI load preformed well in that shootout, and remained in FBI service for many years. It was never scapegoated by the FBI or anyone else.

The 9mm Silvertip was pulled right away and replaced with the 147 grain Hydra-Shok.

Most of the internet information about 4/11/86 is wrong. Especially the awful Ayoob files, that he later supplanted with a slightly less-awful followup. All the info (guns by model and serial number, evidence logs of recovered rounds, witness statements) is available on the FBI FOIA site.

You guy realize its been almost 34 years since this shootout, right? The FBI gets into between 12-20 shootings a year. Do you really think the only thing we changed was the weight of our 9mm bullets? How many shootings with multiple agent deaths have happened since?

[Echo40]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

The one that kept him from shooting anyone else?

The .38 FBI load preformed well in that shootout, and remained in FBI service for many years. It was never scapegoated by the FBI or anyone else.

The 9mm Silvertip was pulled right away and replaced with the 147 grain Hydra-Shok.

Most of the internet information about 4/11/86 is wrong. Especially the awful Ayoob files, that he later supplanted with a slightly less-awful followup. All the info (guns by model and serial number, evidence logs of recovered rounds, witness statements) is available on the FBI FOIA site.

You guy realize its been almost 34 years since this shootout, right? The FBI gets into between 12-20 shootings a year. Do you really think the only thing we changed was the weight of our 9mm bullets? How many shootings with multiple agent deaths have happened since?

No, the one that temporary knocked him unconscious for a minute or two before he got right back up and started shooting again.

My whole original post was the argument that the .38 Special FBI Load is an effective round, so you'll get no argument from me there. Perhaps "scapegoated" was a poor choice of words, what I meant is that the cartridge was removed from service in short order, which would suggest that the FBI felt it was ineffective, (or that seems to be how a lot of folks interpret it anyway) and the search began for a replacement duty cartridge, starting with a cartridge which is ballistically pretty much equal to .357 Magnum, only to ultimately adopt a shortened version of the same cartridge which they later went on to say is no more effective than 9mm Luger, thus rendering the whole process entirely pointless.

I'm not sure who you're arguing with at this point because it seemingly has nothing to do with anything I said, so we're done here.
I mean, really... I never said that internet information on the Miami Shootout was 100% accurate, nor do I know what your line of questioning regarding FBI shootings over the past 33 years has to do with my original post.

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan

No, the one that temporary knocked him unconscious for a minute or two before he got right back up and started shooting again.

My whole original post was the argument that the .38 Special FBI Load is an effective round, so you'll get no argument from me there. Perhaps "scapegoated" was a poor choice of words, what I meant is that the cartridge was removed from service in short order, which would suggest that the FBI felt it was ineffective, (or that seems to be how a lot of folks interpret it anyway) and the search began for a replacement duty cartridge, starting with a cartridge which is ballistically pretty much equal to .357 Magnum, only to ultimately adopt a shortened version of the same cartridge which they later went on to say is no more effective than 9mm Luger, thus rendering the whole process entirely pointless.

I'm not sure who you're arguing with at this point because it seemingly has nothing to do with anything I said, so we're done here.
I mean, really... I never said that internet information on the Miami Shootout was 100% accurate, nor do I know what your line of questioning regarding FBI shootings over the past 33 years has to do with my original post.

I don’t know where you got your information about this shooting. Its all wrong. Magazine articles?

I went into the FBI five years after 4/11/86. I have met several of the survivors. I’ve seen the follow up investigation. I’ve seen the autopsy reports.

No one got up and kept shooting after taking a .38 to the face. Ayoob might think so, but it didn’t happen. Matix made it into the other car, then collected a bunch more bullets from Ed Mireles.

The .38 round in question wasn’t pulled from service soon after this. It remained in service for years. Eventually it was replaced with a +P+ 147 grain Hydra-Shok but it had nothing to do with this shooting. It is still a good round. At least on that we can agree. Nobody in the Bu was unhappy with the performance of the old load. Why would we be? It killed the bad guys decisively.

The +P+ load was adopted after the Bureau ammo protocol tests were devised. It did better on glass and sheet steel. Its not even that hot - 147 grains at 950 fps. Nowhere near a .357 load.

I usually let internet hokum regarding the shooting go, but this is the first time I’ve heard we weren’t happy with the .38 LHP.

[Ivan the Butcher]

Back to the question in the OP. I have 2 J-Frame, 2 K-Frame, I Colt and 1 Ruger snubby. In making reloads for practice with 1 7/8 to 2 1/2" Revolvers in 38 special, I found that around 900 fps bullets cast bullets lighter than 135 grain would strip the rifling and become less accurate than the same load from my 6 revolvers with 4 inch barrels! While bullets at 135 and above maintained their level of accuracy in either 2 or 4 inch barrels. I didn't choose the 135 Gold Dot +P 38 Short Barrel, on anybody else's recommendation, but on my own tests! But that is what I use, everyday of the year, in a J-Frame Model 49 no dash! If for some reason I feel I need a high capacity 9 or a compact 45, I will add these guns to the Humpback! not the other way around!!!

Ivan

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by Ziggy2525

Sorry, my sarcasm/dry humor detector seems to be broken. Are you actually claiming expertise because you watched COPS on tv? Or did I miss an implied smiley face in there somewhere?

I didn't read that as him saying that made him an expert. I read it as of the examples he has seen with women cops, they always required backup. However, I am not real sure how that fit in to this conversation.

Rosewood

[SixGunSancho]

Originally Posted by OKFC05

For short barrel 66s and 65s, my commercial choice for defense is the Speer Short Barrel .357 magnum. I can't speak for others. I use the .38 version of the Speer load in a 442.

Does this ammo produce a large muzzle flash?

Thanks.

[Echo40]

Originally Posted by rosewood

I didn't read that as him saying that made him an expert. I read it as of the examples he has seen with women cops, they always required backup. However, I am not real sure how that fit in to this conversation.

Rosewood

Yeah, everybody knows that if you want to feign expertise on firearms, you claim to have trained at Gunsite, because apparently that means you know everything there is to know about firearms, including things which aren't part of Gunsite training, everything you say is objectively more valid, and you are utterly immune to criticism.

For example, if I were a complete fool, then I could have simply responded to sigp220.45's posts correcting me on the details regarding the 1986 Miami Shootout by simply saying, "Yeah well, I trained at Gunsite!" Nevermind that sigp220.45 was an FBI Agent, was acquainted with some of the survivors, and may very well have actually trained at Gunsite himself.

[hkcavalier]

I carry the Federal Micro HST 130 grain simply because of the Luckygunner tests.

It's likely harder to reload under stress but that's not really a top concern for me re: my J frame.

As a shot placement/CNS believer (no, not a backhanded reference to the '86 shootout) I wouldn't feel undergunned by any .38 Special really, even a standard pressure LRN. But why not carry the one that opens up to nearly 3/4in and penetrates "well enough"?

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/t...-38-special-p/

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by SixGunSancho

Does this ammo produce a large muzzle flash?

Thanks.

The Short Barrel loads use flash-suppressed powder, so they don't produce a lot of muzzle flash. I don't recall the Magnum version making much, if any, flash when fired from a 3" barrel, but it has been a few years since I've shot it. The .38 Special version doesn't produce much flash at all from a 2" barrel.

[rosewood]

I have to say, I have only been a member of the S&W forum for a few months now. The post have been more civil than most other forums I have been on. This is the first one I have seen with so many personal attacks. I sure hope this is an anomaly and doesn't become the norm around here.

Rosewood

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by rosewood

I have to say, I have only been a member of the S&W forum for a few months now. The post have been more civil than most other forums I have been on. This is the first one I have seen with so many personal attacks. I sure hope this is an anomaly and doesn't become the norm around here.

Rosewood

Unfortunately, it does happen from time to time, especially in this subforum for some reason. It has gotten bad enough that I've quit coming to the forum for weeks or months at a time. Lately I've been thinking it may be time to take another break (not that anyone cares).

[BB57]

I'm going to second HKCavalier's link to the Lucky Gunner site:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

Whether you like the FBI's test criteria or not, gel testing is a useful way to compare handgun rounds and Lucky Gunner gives both 2" and 4" results including penetration and expansion. Even if you don't buy the 12" to 18" FBI penetration requirement, you should be concerned about expansion.

Loads that do well in both metrics in a 2" barrel include:

- Federal 130 gr HST
- Hornady 110 gr FTX +P (the non +p load is marginal on expansion, expanding only 60% of the time.)
- Remington 125 gr Golden Saber +P
- Winchester 130 gr PDX1 +P
- Winchester Ranger 130 gr Bonded +P (Winchester 130 gr Train and Defend also comes close with expansion 80% of the time)

[BB57]

Originally Posted by rosewood

I have to say, I have only been a member of the S&W forum for a few months now. The post have been more civil than most other forums I have been on. This is the first one I have seen with so many personal attacks. I sure hope this is an anomaly and doesn't become the norm around here.

Rosewood

If it does become the norm, I'm out of here. The moderation tends to be heavy handed here, but for good reason, and I hope they continue.

[SixGunSancho]

Once in a while, we'll come across instances where new technology does not mean better technology. I'm sure the self-defense rounds I've recently bought for my Model 66-8 2.75" are excellent, so is the FBI load. I'll be good with either.

I can't tell you the last time I've carried a handgun on my person. I'm practiced at avoidance. My new revolver is not intended for bipedal self-defense. It's intended use will be a hiking handgun in areas where rattlesnakes are common, and it'd be possible to cross paths with a lion. I do have #4 shot capsules for rattlers. The FBI load would work on a lion motivated by bad intentions.

[SixGunSancho]

Originally Posted by BB57

I'm going to second HKCavalier's link to the Lucky Gunner site:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

Whether you like the FBI's test criteria or not, gel testing is a useful way to compare handgun rounds and Lucky Gunner gives both 2" and 4" results including penetration and expansion. Even if you don't buy the 12" to 18" FBI penetration requirement, you should be concerned about expansion.

Loads that do well in both metrics in a 2" barrel include:

- Federal 130 gr HST
- Hornady 110 gr FTX +P (the non +p load is marginal on expansion, expanding only 60% of the time.)
- Remington 125 gr Golden Saber +P
- Winchester 130 gr PDX1 +P
- Winchester Ranger 130 gr Bonded +P (Winchester 130 gr Train and Defend also comes close with expansion 80% of the time)

My take on expansion is I'll never rely upon it as displayed in marketing photos. If I were to get it, I'd be happy. But I wouldn't rely on it to save my life.

Many, many years ago, I carried off-duty a 1911 with 230 grain ball ammo, and I never felt the least bit slighted. A 1911 is amazingly easy to conceal. Its weight, fully loaded, forced me back to my Model 60 loaded with the FBI load and a speed loader.

As I grew wiser, I realized that if I stayed out of banger claimed territory and anywhere near it, I wouldn't have to worry about an off-duty gun.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by SixGunSancho

My take on expansion is I'll never rely upon it as displayed in marketing photos. If I were to get it, I'd be happy. But I wouldn't rely on it to save my life.

Many, many years ago, I carried off-duty a 1911 with 230 grain ball ammo, and I never felt the least bit slighted. A 1911 is amazingly easy to conceal. Its weight, fully loaded, forced me back to my Model 60 loaded with the FBI load and a speed loader.

As I grew wiser, I realized that if I stayed out of banger claimed territory and anywhere near it, I wouldn't have to worry about an off-duty gun.

Me either.

None of the photos there are marketing photos. In fact the majority of the are failures to expand and for 2" .38 Special the vast majority are failures to expand.

I also agree with you that rule number 1 for anb armed citizen is to avoid places where he or she thinks a gun might be needed.

That's a critical difference between LEO needs and armed citizen needs. LEOs sometimes have to go in dark and scary places looking for bad guys. If an armed citizen is doing that he or she is just out looking for trouble - and they'll eventually find it.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by SixGunSancho

My take on expansion is I'll never rely upon it as displayed in marketing photos. If I were to get it, I'd be happy. But I wouldn't rely on it to save my life.

Many, many years ago, I carried off-duty a 1911 with 230 grain ball ammo, and I never felt the least bit slighted. A 1911 is amazingly easy to conceal. Its weight, fully loaded, forced me back to my Model 60 loaded with the FBI load and a speed loader.

As I grew wiser, I realized that if I stayed out of banger claimed territory and anywhere near it, I wouldn't have to worry about an off-duty gun.

The larger problem with relying on the latest high tech super dooper stopping rounds are that they are expensive. Consequently shooters carry them, but don't shoot very often with their carry ammo - if they shoot at all. I don't care how great the round is, a miss is a miss and will not stop a determined assault. You need to be able to shoot whatever you carry with sufficient accuracy to get effective hits. and a bit with a .32 ACP 73 gr FMJ is going to be far more effective than a miss with a perfectly expanding 240 gr .44 Magnum.

[SixGunSancho]

Originally Posted by BB57

The larger problem with relying on the latest high tech super dooper stopping rounds are that they are expensive. Consequently shooters carry them, but don't shoot very often with their carry ammo - if they shoot at all. I don't care how great the round is, a miss is a miss and will not stop a determined assault. You need to be able to shoot whatever you carry with sufficient accuracy to get effective hits. and a bit with a .32 ACP 73 gr FMJ is going to be far more effective than a miss with a perfectly expanding 240 gr .44 Magnum.

There is no such thing as a tactical handgun man stopper cartridge.

Avoid, avoid, and if that doesn't work, try avoidance. It's the only known way of surviving a gunfight.

If avoidance isn't an option, don't get shot. It's far more important to practice tactics designed for getting outta a bad guy's sight picture than hitting a bad guy with your rounds.

[SixGunSancho]

Originally Posted by BB57

Me either.

None of the photos there are marketing photos. In fact the majority of the are failures to expand and for 2" .38 Special the vast majority are failures to expand.

I also agree with you that rule number 1 for anb armed citizen is to avoid places where he or she thinks a gun might be needed.

That's a critical difference between LEO needs and armed citizen needs. LEOs sometimes have to go in dark and scary places looking for bad guys. If an armed citizen is doing that he or she is just out looking for trouble - and they'll eventually find it.

You are an extremely wise man. I wish all gun owners had your wisdom.

Cops have to go in harm's way. We don't.

It's far more wise to be a live witness than a dead hero.

[SixGunSancho]

There's an axiom that should guide everyone's thoughts:

The bigger they are, the harder they hit.

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by SixGunSancho

There's an axiom that should guide everyone's thoughts:

The bigger they are, the harder they hit.

That applies to bad guys and bullets.

[s&wchad]

I deleted a number of replies to this thread.

If you see posts that violate our rules or cross the line of civility, please report them.

Seems some members need a refresher:

The following topics are BANNED on this Board:
Abortion
Religion
Racial issues
Gay rights/homosexuality
General LEO bashing
Political Discussion and Comment

1. We ask that you conduct yourselves as ladies and gentlemen. Civil Discourse and Courteous Behavior shall be the norm.
2. Remember- opinions will differ. Get over it. State your opinion calmly, and allow others to state theirs. Discussion will be fine, but there is no need to take a thread into a verbal fistfight or shouting match.

[s&wchad]

Originally Posted by pocketshaver

What you call being uncivil is merely presenting information that YOU don't like.

Your posts weren't deleted because of your opinions about cartridge effectiveness, they were deleted because of your crude language and abrasive comments. Your contempt for modern law enforcement and female officers is obvious and not acceptable on this board.

We have a large number of past and present LEO's on this board and they will not be made to feel uncomfortable here.

Your PM reply to another moderator just earned you some time off. Use that time to decide if this community is a good fit for you.

[Grayfox]

Getting back to the original subject......
I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but I have been shooting for most of my life. My 'go to" .38 defensive load has been the 158gr LHP +P for as long as I can remember. Its got a proven track record and its very accurate in all my guns. Why should I change to whatever fancy cartridge/bullet from somebody else that I have no experience with? If something works, don't mess with it.

Most of my shooting is simple paper punching and for that I shoot mostly my own reloads. However, I do keep some factory ammo around for carry and such. A couple of months ago I noticed that I was getting low on this particular load. So I went hunting on the internet. I don't know if I just caught the time between factory runs when supplies are low or what. Maybe its gone out of style? Maybe everybody else has changed over to the latest wonder bullet? But I had trouble finding it. I finally found some Winchester @ $49 per box. I passed on that. But after considerable searching I finally found that Lucky Gunner had the Federal @ $20 for a box of 50. So I bought a case. Now I have enough of this fine load to last for many years to come.