model 351 PD with CT .22 magnum for CC?

breakingbad · Oct 25, 2012

Two part question:
What do you all think about the .22 magnum as a viable SD round?

What do you think of a laser for self-defense?

I combined the two by buying a used 7-shot 351 PD LNIB with CT grips on it (soft rubber ones) and I love it for it's accuracy out to 10 yards with the laser and 5 - 7 yrds with front sites only. In addition, a light J-frame where you can actually fire 6 more follow-up shots into a 4 inch grouping at 10 yrds rapid fire.

It's my BUG but I find myself just dropping it in my hoodie pocket or IWB holster more and more, especially at night when walking doggies or quick run somewhere.

It's not too slow to reload with the TUFFs speedstrip.

At point blank range shooting while moving sideways/ backwards it punches 7 holes center mass no problems. Once that laser is dialed in, all you need is decent trigger control to place your shots on the move. I still use the front site regularly bec I don't think there is any documented case of a laser being used in a street gunfight. But boy! is that red dot nice to see at night on your target. I think that intimidates a bad guy too.

I believe the .22 magnum is a "nasty" round based on my research. I use Winchester or Hornady 40 gr JHP for SD ammo.

pineappleshooter · Oct 25, 2012

I love the idea of a laser on my CCW but want something a little bigger than a 22 mag. Standard pressure 38s do way more damage and are easy to shoot accurately rapid fire.

What I like about the laser is you can get a shot off from any angle accurately.

Old cop · Oct 25, 2012

If the .22 mag is what you shoot best with then go for it. As to lasers on pocket guns I just cannot see a reason for them beyond a training tool. If you ever have to deploy your weapon it will be in a reactive panic situatiion and you will have almost no time to "aim." I know, I've been there as an LEO.

venomballistics · Oct 25, 2012

the dead minimum calibers for SD are 9MM and 38 special in my book.
lasers on SD guns ... looks good on paper in a perfect world.
if you need to draw, you probably have time to just draw point and fire. the dot means nothing to you. Furthermore, odds are that for all those months, and years of living under your clothes. the lasers batteries will be as stone dead as you will be if you are depending on it.

GLV · Oct 25, 2012

Velocity goes down

with the barrel length--from 1900+ to about 1500 for 6.5" barrel, and somewhat more for 2 or 3" barrel.

If I were going to carry The 351PD with less than a 2" barrel, I would have to do a lot of practice, much to the head. I would want to be able to put 7 shots to the head in under 3 seconds.

Just for fun, have you run your ammo over a clock using your gun? Chronograph.

breakingbad · Oct 25, 2012

Old cop said:
If the .22 mag is what you shoot best with then go for it. As to lasers on pocket guns I just cannot see a reason for them beyond a training tool. If you ever have to deploy your weapon it will be in a reactive panic situatiion and you will have almost no time to "aim." I know, I've been there as an LEO.

Hi Old Cop -
good comment re: training tool. I also agree if you have to draw your gun to shoot it will usually be under great duress. Since I carry it I do practice regularly and altho' there is no substitute for aiming with the front site, I have to admit that you can get the laser on the target from any position and then press the trigger. That can be pretty fast.

But I wouldn't depend solely on the laser other than shooting from the hip you won't miss if that laser is on the target. That seems to be where the advantage is, otherwise I think things move to quickly in a street battle for the laser to be useful.... it could even hinder.

StatesRightist · Oct 25, 2012

22 mag is OK for a Bug, but not as a primary in my opinion. You give up too much in terms of barrier penetration etc. Remember fatality in a round is not relevant. What matters is how quickly it incapacitates the BG and that is where the .22 loses out, it also has some issues with penetration at angles as well. Some of the studies on rounds fail to recognize the difference between incapacitation and lethality, that leads to inaccurate conclusions.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want shot with it, it's a nightmare for a surgeon and a head shot and it's over, but I don't see it as a primary, but as a BUG, if you shoot it well, run with it. JMO.

pineappleshooter · Oct 25, 2012

I agree with oldcop about shooting reactively. However, where the laser shines (pun intended) is if the fight goes to the ground, i.e. you get knocked on your keester, flat on your back, whatever, if you can see the dot, that is where the bullet is going to hit.

breakingbad · Oct 26, 2012

GLVO -
no chrono so I can't report.

NAA website has some interesting ballistic info out of their guns for the .22 mag and .22 LR ... I mean, at least they have data one can access easily. Try finding .22 ballistic data anywhere that you can trust - it's not even in the ballistic section at back of 2010 Standard Catalog of Firearms.

Packard · Oct 26, 2012

I think the 351 is a superior alternative to a .32. More reliable and just as light. But practice ammo is just as expensive as .38s so I would not get one myself. I'd rather use a 340PD with light loads.

Old cop · Oct 26, 2012

I don't have a laser on any of my guns but I have tried them at the range, just not my cup of tea. I don't knock those who use them but realize the limitations. My normal carry is a stock 442 loaded w/+P. Recently I picked up a Keltec .32 that is carried in those rare instances when the 442 cannot be hidden due to the social circumstance. BTW, this little Keltec is the most reliable mouse gun I've ever owned which may be luck, but I do have confidence it will work if needed.

Lobster Picnic · Oct 26, 2012

I think the 351PD is a fine choice for SD. Speer and Hornady now make .22 Magnum ammo designed for short barrels, so try those in your 351PD. I also like the 50gr Federal Game Shock, which has a nice pop and is quite accurate in my 2" Black Widow.

Practical · Oct 27, 2012

venomballistics said:
the dead minimum calibers for SD are 9MM and 38 special in my book.
lasers on SD guns ... looks good on paper in a perfect world.
if you need to draw, you probably have time to just draw point and fire. the dot means nothing to you. Furthermore, odds are that for all those months, and years of living under your clothes. the lasers batteries will be as stone dead as you will be if you are depending on it.

I disagree quite a bit on the use of lasers.

The crimson trace laser grips, at least the ones with 2032 coin cell batteries are VERY reliable. The batteries last over a year with only moderate use. For substantial dry firing I would replace them every 6 months with a GOOD battery, but my kids use the 2032 in toys and they last easily 3 months after I give them my old batteries. Their devices draw a lot of power because they are on a lot.

The laser provides INSTANT feedback for point shooting dry fire practice. It improves ones performance and muscle memory VERY quickly.

Frankly, anyone who disputest he use of lasers is not really trying one. They really work well for me and provide mental feedback that keeps me on target.

venomballistics · Oct 27, 2012

Practical said:
I disagree quite a bit on the use of lasers.

The crimson trace laser grips, at least the ones with 2032 coin cell batteries are VERY reliable. The batteries last over a year with only moderate use. For substantial dry firing I would replace them every 6 months with a GOOD battery, but my kids use the 2032 in toys and they last easily 3 months after I give them my old batteries. Their devices draw a lot of power because they are on a lot.

The laser provides INSTANT feedback for point shooting dry fire practice. It improves ones performance and muscle memory VERY quickly.

Frankly, anyone who disputest he use of lasers is not really trying one. They really work well for me and provide mental feedback that keeps me on target.

Ive played with lasers in the past. Particularly observing a friends laser sight. when it worked, it is as you say. However Ive lost count of how many times that thing was stone dead even on pre planned range trips. He like many others, didn't have the discipline to keep the batteries fresh. Reflex sights tend to be better as they have a much lower current draw than a diode laser. none the less his AR15 sight was fading fast the last time we shot. yeah he's probably the worst there is about matters of voltage but he well illustrates why anything battery powered should be weighed very carefully.
We don't get to pick when we need our sidearms for a SD fight. wardrobe malfunctions can unknowingly activate your laser and drain it prior to time of need.
we will fight as we train. if ones training focus is upon these gadgets, we will be at a loss in the moment of truth if they fail.

StatesRightist · Oct 27, 2012

or in bright sunlight, where they are useless.

breakingbad · Oct 31, 2012

here is my experience:
* daylight they are useless ... better practice with the sights
* great dry fire practice mechanism
* I don't understand the "dead battery" issue. You can easily tell when the brightness is getting so dim that you need to change it. It doesn't happen like a switch - it is gradual so there is plenty of warning. Not an issue. By the way, they last for hours when on full time, so under normal usage they will last you many many shooting sessions.
* No wardrobe malfunction can happen, at least not with the J frame. There is an on/off switch that must first be activated, which is very well situated against accidental activation. Second, you then have to grip the grips pretty good to turn it on, which is impossible when in it's holster.
Where it "shines" is low light and up close - don't have to aim if you don't want to ... just get the dot on target and press the trigger. That's not how I shoot in general, but is one of the ways I practice with it BECAUSE it can actually do that very well ... even while you are moving.

The 351 is accurate with the front sights too ... easily 4 inch groups at 5 - 7 yrds - even 10 yrds.

Caliber wise, the .22 magnum packs a pretty mean punch. One heavy clothing penetration test in gelatin in Handgunner magazine shows a 45 gr FTX bullet from a little itty bitty NAA Mini-revolver penetrating as much as a .380 90 gr FTX bullet from a Ruger LCP ... and expands the wound channel nearly as much too. BTW, it was about 10 inches, and the .45 ACP from a Springfield Micro 3" gun was 13 inches.

venomballistics · Oct 31, 2012

I have a .25" dia length of music wire with a 24" length which can penetrate 21" of ballistic gelatin when you stab the block with it (assuming 3" to hold on to)
Bullets have improved since the 40's anyone can tell you that.
However, how much improvement can one expect from something that still uses the same copper jacket, filled with the same lead core.
nope, no matter what, the old rules still apply, however much debate there may be through the decades. I made mine a 45 because it never really needed any help in the first place.

Frizzman · Oct 31, 2012

Would you want to defend yourself from a large dog or hog or cougar with a .22 Mag snub? I sure wouldn't if I had any choice. Why chose a tiny cartridge to defend something as large or larger that is probably smarter and also armed? I know of some people who kill deer with a .22 Mag RIFLE...mainly poachers...but there is a reason its illegal to use for deer hunting in this state...What does "nasty" mean? Effective at close range against an armed and determined attacker? There are people on the streets who have lots of exposure and experience with violence and will not retreat. I wouldn't depend on a tiny, 40 grain bullet out of a short barrel if I had any choice. The idea of placing bullets with great precision in a dynamic, close range situation with a human who is not standing there like a range target and may be shooting at you makes that idea unrealistic. I wouldn't count on a .22 mag to penetrate a skull. I have seen people take some serious wounds to the head and face and continue fighting. Also, rimfire cartridges are more prone to misfire than centerfire cartridges...So far as the laser goes, I thinks its another tool with uses and limitations but its no substitute for learning to handle your weapon in a fight. Don't depend solely on that tool. An pneumatic hammer doesn't make you a better carpenter than a claw hammer if you aren't skilled at being a carpenter...

breakingbad · Oct 31, 2012

True - no substutute for accuracy coupled with big bore

venomballistics · Oct 31, 2012

Frizzman said:
Would you want to defend yourself from a large dog or hog or cougar with a .22 Mag snub? I sure wouldn't if I had any choice. Why chose a tiny cartridge to defend something as large or larger that is probably smarter and also armed? I know of some people who kill deer with a .22 Mag RIFLE...mainly poachers...but there is a reason its illegal to use for deer hunting in this state...What does "nasty" mean? Effective at close range against an armed and determined attacker? There are people on the streets who have lots of exposure and experience with violence and will not retreat. I wouldn't depend on a tiny, 40 grain bullet out of a short barrel if I had any choice. The idea of placing bullets with great precision in a dynamic, close range situation with a human who is not standing there like a range target and may be shooting at you makes that idea unrealistic. I wouldn't count on a .22 mag to penetrate a skull. I have seen people take some serious wounds to the head and face and continue fighting. Also, rimfire cartridges are more prone to misfire than centerfire cartridges...So far as the laser goes, I thinks its another tool with uses and limitations but its no substitute for learning to handle your weapon in a fight. Don't depend solely on that tool. An pneumatic hammer doesn't make you a better carpenter than a claw hammer if you aren't skilled at being a carpenter...

yup .. 22's are good guns for the range, some trails, pest control, sometimes a backup, and a few "special operations" as described. Most roles for it are when the weight of risk isn't against you. SD the weight of risk is against you and you don't get to pick the surroundings. It might be that you only get a leg to shoot at. 45 and 357 can break bone. 40 .. I think so but haven't played with it enough to say for certain.
That ability is well worth consideration.

model 351 PD with CT .22 magnum for CC?

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