Stopped in my LGS today and was talking to the guy about concealed carry. I had been leaning toward an M&P 40, but he strongly advocated a snubnose like the 642 with .38 spl +P. Very concealable, plenty of stopping power at close range, but I'm wondering about 5 shots vs. 15. I know there are advocates of each. Advice?


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I think statistics show the average number of shots fired in actual self
defense shootings is about two. Most people find that when carrying
strickly for self defense as a non law enforcement civilian that they
quickly tire of bulky, heavy handguns when the actual chance of having
to use it is slim.

I think of defense (whether it's with my hands or another weapon) as giving me extra time to get away. Given that mindset, I personally think that if you need more than 2 or 3 shots - you aren't in a gunfight any more - and you ought to be running.

My well-worn 442 is the one that always seems to make it into my pocket on those quick trips or when I will have to disarm repeatedly to go into restricted places. So the larger guns don't get carried as often as I perhaps should. I think everyone should have a pocket gun they actually can carry (almost) everywhere, regardless of what else you have.

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Science plus Art

very apples to oranges comparison.

whats your mode of carry, attire and so forth?

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I'm only allowed 30 characters

Another vote for the 442. I've been carrying for over 40 years and found out that large & heavy gets left behind eventually where small & light is carried always.

I'm getting ready to leave the house now and my Colt Cobra is in my pocket and the Glock Model 23 is in the safe.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

My most carried guns are a 642, 9c and 3913.

The 642 is great for pocket carry and IWB in dress slacks.

The 3913 is a great IWB gun.

The 9c goes IWB when there is a lot of work to be done crawling under my truck to repair something or working in the shop.

I don't care to carry my full size M&P's.

.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

I carry a full size 1911 everyday if the weather permits wearing a jacket or vest. If not then I carry a M&P 9C. Sometimes I carry a j frame.

You're comparing two completely different guns. First think about how, where, and when you intend to carry. How you dress in cold/warm weather. These are some of the things that need to be considered before buying any carry gun.

What works for some may not work for others.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

If you're not carrying a 3913 I'd go with the 642.
You'll never have an excuse not to carry it.

Everyone who posted ahead of me is correct. Let me add this: how well do you shoot each gun? Have you ever fired the J-frame revolver, and more than just 5-10 rounds?

Try the typing paper test: can you keep your shots on an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper at 3 to 7 yards? If yes, can you do double-taps, 2 rounds at a time on the same target? You can do these also with the semi-auto. Learn your capabilities.

Perhaps you can rent the 642 (or similar) at a range. Perhaps some instruction will help; it has helped me! It would be unfortunate to buy a gun and find that it doesn't 'fit your pistol.'

I love my M&P's but carry a M642.

I carry my 442 everyday either in my pocket or on my belt, along with 2 loaded quickstrips in my left front pocket.

Model 640 for me the year around, nearly always pocket-carried in a good holster--Uncle Mike's or DeSantis Nemesis.

That average round count, two to three per shooting, is also accompanied by an average duration of two to three seconds and range from contact to ten feet, with most at five feet or less, in the figures I've seen.

Shooting in actual contact when somebody is on top of you, a revolver won't go out of battery, or fail to fire if your grip isn't as strong as you would wish. I know, you shouldn't let anyone get that close, but stuff happens.

I like the Centennials because they are DAO and, unless altered in some obvious way, comparatively lawyer-proof--no negligent-discharge claims that you carelessly fired a "hair-trigger" weapon. I figure if an assailant is far enough away that I need precise single action fire to hit him, I'll have a hard time claiming self-defense.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Another vote for the 442. I carry a high cap auto a lot. I carry the Airweight Centennial a lot more. For defensive purposes the snub will take care of most all your CCW concerns.

24X7 CCW=S&W Model 642

I usually carry a 9c. Comfortable to shoot all day long, unlike the last time I shot a jframe. I also have no problem concealing my 9c.

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M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

Concealibility is great but if you can't hit anything with the weapon, it's useless.
Try and rent a 642 or 442 or even a 637 and shoot at 5 yards. Try to simulate how you think you would be shooting in an SD situation.
When I have done that with j-frames that had excellent trigger job, I still did not hit the target. I carry my M&P Shield in my pocket everyday.
I agree that if a target is 5 yards away it may be difficult to claim self defense but what if you were in a situation where a BG is ten yards away (say in a convenience store) and getting ready to shoot the clerk or stabbing them. You may have to make that shot to save a life and as good a shooter as I am, I've decided not to trust that scenerio to a j-frame. No offense to it's supporters. I agree with everything said about concealibility, but decided they're not for me.

All very good comments!

I actually traded my 9c for my 642 pro. I found I wasn't carrying the 9c because I didn't like it IWB - I prefer to carry in my front pocket.

I would reiterate what others have said: shoot both, a lot, and figure out what you like better. If you won't carry it, or can't hit with it, it's just another gun in the safe.

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But then, what do I know?

A lot of good information here. The main difference that really concerns me is the difference in capacity. With the j-frame I have five shots. According to the stats people are quoting here, that SHOULD be enough. But I'd rather have fifteen rounds and ned two, than have five and need eight. That's what makes me a bit leery about the revolver. With the semi, I have my fifteen shots in one compact package. To get the same capacity with the revolver, I need to pack a couple of speedloaders as well. And then there's the reloading under pressure as well.


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I agree with others that you should try out both handguns to help you make your decision. While I have no experience with the other model handgun, I bought a 642 earlier this month. I'm very happy with its accuracy. Although I hadn't shot a double action revolver in years, I shot tight groups of double taps from 3, 5, and 7 yards using 130 gr. FMJ .38 Special ammo. At 15 yards, using 125 gr. +P hollow points and slower, aimed fire, I placed every round within the 4 and 5 ring of a standard sized Trans Star target. What more can you expect from a lightweight, concealable self-defense handgun?

Michael
The box is not filled out on where you live. This can make some difference also.
I live just down the road from Mayberry. Probably about as low threat as it gets. I am perfectly happy with a revolver.
I carried a revolver most all of the 17 years I was in Law Enforcement. I have been considering getting my commission back with the Sheriff's Dept as a Reserve. I would be carrying my 610 again if I decide to get back in the game.

In your application the J Frame is much easier to conceal year round. It is also much harder to master.
I shoot in BUG Division every other month with a revolver. The only time I ever get smoked is by a Glock or M&P Compact. They are both easier to shoot well, and hold more ammunition. They are also harder to conceal year round.

The larget the handgun the harder it is to dress around it. This is going to be the part you have to do some serious thinking about. No doubt an M&P would be superior to a J Frame at distances past say 10 feet for most who carry. However the superiority factor goes out the window if the M&P is home in the gun safe because you have decided it is too much of a pain to carry daily.

Myself I have a 442 that I really like. I carry it when I need to dress lite. OR when I will need to come out of my concealment clothing. Like at Church where it is too warm to wear a jacket. I then use a pocket holster and have the 442 in an inner jacket or coat pocket. I keep the coat with me in these situations. When I step up in size, it will normally be to a 2", 2-1/2" or 3" K Frame. I do carry my full size 1911 some also.

My advice is to get a J Frame or a small semi auto like a Shield first and get your feet wet carrying something that is easier to conceal. You can always move up in size later.

Most places that you need a hi capacity handgun for protection they do not allow you to carry. Such as Washington DC, Chicago, East St Louis, etc.

Bob

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ICORE MO2908

I have a MP40 with a Crossbreed and a Ruger LCR .357 with a Galco IWB (Model STO158).

90% of my carry time goes to the LCR. Mainly because of its size.

Now that its warm here in Tennessee, I see the MP40 being retired to the safe till Fall.

I will probably switch to pocket carry for the LCR when I break out the cargo shorts.

I will be getting a different holster for the LCR. The Galco does the job but it feels like a fist sticking in your back.

By comparison, the Crossbreed feels like a hand on your lower back.
Extremely comfortable.

I would like to get a single clip Crossbreed for the LCR if they have one. If not, I will get one like I have for the Smith and Wesson.

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Wake me when it's over...

Excellent point. With equal shooting times with both the LCR and the MP40, my wife can shoot so much better with the MP.

She says the trigger is better on the MP (I agree).

She is trying to get used to the longer pull on the revolver. Just takes more practice.

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Wake me when it's over...

I almost always carry my 442.

Unless it's jacket weather then I carry a Glock 23, or sometimes a full size 1911. So, about a third of the year I carry one of these. Sometimes I go ahead and carry my S&W model 65 stoked with .357 rounds, especially when I'm out in the woods around my farm.

On Sunday mornings I typically carry my Glock 27 in a ankle holster to church. Lots of crazy people coming in shooting up churches these days.

Of course, if it's real hot or I'm just wearing shorts and t-shirt I carry my Colt vest pocket .25 ACP. It hides very well.

When I'm on my motorcycle I almost always carry a Colt 1903 pocket pistol in my boot.

When I'm kayaking, which I do a lot of in the spring, I usually have my Ruger SR22 with me in a dry bag.

You know, I really don't carry my 442 as much as I thought I did.

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- Change it back -

I stopped carrying a full size M&P 9 in favor of 640. Weight of the steel j frame is a non issue after carrying the M&P.
However now comfort and convenience of the 640 is so much better for everyday carry.

Depends a lot on your training, along with your ability to control your parasympathetic reactions, John. There are folks out there who spray and pray in a confrontation, and then there are those individuals who calmly aim and make every round count with a hit. We're not discussing police stats here anyway, since most who are reading this thread are civilians (though many have a LE background). Civilians don't have to go in after a barricaded bad guy or chase a fleeing felon. If I thought I was going up against multiple suspects or a gang, I'd carrying more firepower than a handgun in the first place. The object in defending yourself is to stop the threat, and remove yourself and loved ones from danger ASAP. A lot of bad guys have been put down with one round from a revolver, or run rather than face an armed defender. If you like a double stack for a concealed handgun, more power to you. Some of the guys in this forum have extensive handgun experience, and prefer a revolver. More power to them. I carry both.

There is more to CCW that just the CC. One of the most important things I discovered in my own search has to be the ability to practice with and become proficient with whatever you choose. I fired 2 mags (12 rounds) through a Ruger LCP, liked it and purchased one for my primary CCW. I started to practice with it and found that I'm developing arthritis in my trigger finger, any more than 3 mags caused my finger to become a problem.

With more thought I fired a Ruger LCR and 642 .38+P range revolvers 50 rounds each of .38 Specials. Both were nice shooters and much better on my trigger finger than the LCP. I ended up with the LCR simply because the LGS had a very nice used one at a non-gouge price.

I may keep the LCR as a back-up pocket pistol for the times we go to places where we should be alert. I think that someone on the forum called it a "New York Reload."

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Paul
Sandusky Bay, OH

John:

I really don't see where you and I have much of an argument. I frequently carry two handguns when off duty: a semi-auto and a revolver. Both are compact, easily concealable firearms, and I have an extra mag for the semi-auto. I feel I'm pretty well armed.

In reality, discreet double stack carry is not always possible or preferable for everyone, as others in this thread have explained. Small capacity revolvers or semi-autos have their place, and having lots of ammo is of little use unless the shooter is proficient with their chosen handgun(s). All other issues being equal, I would agree that a greater number of available rounds could be of consequence in a multiple assailant situation or a prolonged gun battle. In my experience, good training and regular practice are equally, if not more important that the type of handgun carried.

As a civilian (non-LE) once the imminent threat is gone, you have achieved your objective. Nobody expects you to pursue an armed fleeing assailant. Doing so could place you in serious jeopardy, since the Police or another good guy might not be able to distinguish between you and the bad guy during ensuing action. You might have different scenarios in mind. When the **** hits the fan, we all have to rely on our training and discretion.

Thanks for the attributions. I will take a closer look at them when I find the time.

Sorry I'm late to this thread, but I bought a 9C for when I feel like carrying a S/A and later a 442 for summer/deeper conceal. Since I got the 442, it has gone essentially everywhere with me and the 9C is starting to get lonely. I'd advocate for both, but if both isn't an option, I personally gravitate toward the snub.

Thanks John. First post to actually address my question. I read the Farnam piece, and he makes a really good point. The oft-quoted statistic that most officers fired two to three shots per incident actually included accidents and suicides, which would be obviously limited to one shot, thereby artificially lowering the average. Officers with revolvers tended to fire every round available to them. I wonder if the increase to 8 rounds with semi-autos is due to an increased tendency to automatically double-tap most shots? In any case, it's obvious that there could indeed be instances where 5 shots is not enough. (Unless I'm Jerry Miculek.)
http://youtu.be/lLk1v5bSFPw

Farnam's conclusion was telling:

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Pretty much irrelevant to my question. What I wanted to know is whether 5 rounds is enough most of the time, or is it worth it to carry 15? Nothing at all to do with mode of carry or attire.


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Interesting side discussion. I have been advised to carry no less than .40 caliber because 9mm rounds etc., do not have as much "stopping power." The clerk was claiming that a .38+p is close enough to the .40 in "stopping power" to be sufficiently equivalent in a fight.

Now I am quite aware that a bullet will not throw a bad guy through a picture window, despite Clint Eastwood's pictures. And even a bullet through the heart may not stop an assailant immediately. But I don't think we're talking about a binary situation here; i.e., one round will stop an assailant while another will not. Isn't it more of a continuum, where one round will stop him faster or more effectively than another? I am also an archery hunter. We are taught that when you shoot an animal with an arrow, you wait 30 minutes before pursuing to give the animal time to bleed out and expire. If you pursue it right away, it runs a lot further and is harder to find, but it's still "stopped" at some point.

I guess a lot depends on what YOU mean by "stopping power."

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For me it varies depending on the time of the year AND what I am doing at the time.

We are entering the hot sticky months, and I will be in shorts and T-shirts 99% of the time. (being retired, every day is a Saturday for me. ) My 642 will be in my pocket and a loaded speed loader in my weak side pocket. In jacket weather -- I love my Shield 40 carried in an IWB. In the really cold winter, I'll sometimes carry my M&P 9 FS with an OWB under my heavy parka.

So -- don't restrict yourself to just one gun.

Oops -- I read going backwards through the posts and Michael -- I see that you are frustrated with many of the answers because they don't address exactly your original question. So let me add to what I've already said (which may be of benefit to someone else).
I enjoy the heck out of having 17+1 in my FS 9. So much so that I often forget to carry a spare mag. If I can't win the shootout with 18 rounds, I am going to be a dead duck anyway. With my Shield 40, I am carrying 7 rounds. I am a pretty good shot, but I am certainly not a fast gunslinger. If I find myself in a situation where the fastest draw wins the battle -- then once again, notify my next of kin. If OTOH, I have time to prepare for the confrontation, then I don't see why I would need more than two rounds, both aimed center mass. So that is why in the summer, I feel "adequately protected" with only 5 rounds from my wheel gun. I do have the spare speed-loader, but I've timed myself reloading - and let's just say it ain't pretty.

Now - if we're talking taking out zombies as they come over the hill during the coming revolution -- then if I haven't won with my rifles and I have to resort to my handguns, the gig is up -- it is BROKEN ARROW time!

It all depends on what your are comfortable with. After carrying a variety of semi autos with magazine capacities from 9 to 17 rounds, its sometimes comforting to know that you have that many rounds in the gun plus a reload. If all you've ever carried is a five shot revolver and feel secure with it, then you're probably fine. There have been instances where police officers chose to carry a small revolver off duty because it was really light and could simply be dropped in a pocket. That was the wrong line of thinking, and I recall reading about at least one who actually got into an off-duty gunfight in a store and found the J-frame didn't perform well for him in an actual fight (or rather he did not perform well enough to master the J-frame). Then again, I recall reading about a federal officer in Chicago a few years back who got called out to a train station armed only with a five shot. He and his partners encountered some perps who wanted to fight, and the officer acquitted himself well with the J-frame and saved everyone's bacon. I have seen the syndrome of the former - people just want a light, easy to carry gun and don't care about the fact that they might have to shoot it. A J-frame is not an inaccurate gun to shoot, but does require training. J-frame sights are generally lousy from the factory, and replacing them with aftermarket sights that are visible to the shooter's eye can become expensive. The M&P comes with better sights out of the box. A J-frame's trigger press will always be longer and require more pressure than an M&P's. Both, however, will break in with proper lube, dry fire rituals, and of course range time. Spend 30 minutes a day dry firing your J-frame - with special emphasis on maintaining an undisturbed sight picture while pressing the trigger - and you'll have mastered the double action revolver. Same is true with the M&P. Reloading will be faster with the M&P, but I've seen Christmas come sooner than it took some shooters I've had to deal with get their semi auto back up and running. Get some dummy rounds or snap caps and practice using speed loaders with the J-frame. Carry at least two extras. Speed strips are slower, but still better than reloading from loose rounds - and a whole lot better than carrying no reload at all. Regardless of what you may decide to carry, train with the whole package, not just a trip or two to the range once in a while. Remember that the best gun to have is the gun you are most likely to carry in all circumstances.

I used to carry a Model 60, when the 640 came out I sold the 60. A couple year ago I picked up a 642 only because it was lighter than the 640. Now the 640 is my wife's gun and the 642 is one of my 2 carry guns. The other a KelTec 380. Like the KelTec in the summer time with gym shorts.

A few years back, Hand Gun Magizine did an article on the top 3 defense hand guns. #1 was a 1911 A1, #2 was a Sig either 226 or 229 and the third was a 640.

The best defense carry gun is the one that you have in your pocket when needed.

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Ricky
Coastal GA

Yeah, handgun rounds suck at stopping man sized wild critters.

Southern Oklahoma Hogs and Handguns...

A doctor said rifles create more devastating wounds than handguns? What a revelation. Why do you suppose LE often grab the long gun when it's available? .

Why do you suppose police fire many rounds during armed confrontations?
It has a lot to do with the fact that they have an adrenalin dump that triggers a parasympathetic reaction resulting in rapid heart rate, rapid breathing, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and loss of fine motor control. Moving attackers and stress frequently result in a low hit ratio in relation to the numbers of rounds fired. Under stress, very few will visually align their sights, because they have tunnel vision, focusing on the threat of their assailant. At close range, point shooting is relatively effective; however, most LE don't practice point shooting at distances greater than 5 to 7 yards, and then at nonthreatening paper targets.

Reading what some have to say about handgun stopping power, I get the feeling they think we should all melt down our pea shooters, and carry nothing but semi-auto, high power carbines with a couple of hundred rounds at the ready for SD. If I knew I was going to a gunfight, that would be appropriate, but for every day SD needs, it's not what I consider practical.

Here's another forum thread that discusses these same issues, if you're interested: The Myth that .380acp is ineffective for defence.

There are a lot of first hand experience testimonials, which includes results targeting the "Thoractic Triangle" for improved stopping power with any caliber of firearm.

I tell my students it is always going to be a compromise. Some of us compromise at different points. What if you need 17 rounds and only have 15? Whatever you decide there is always a situation where it won't be the right choice. It is sort of do you want to be prepared for 99.5% of the problems or 99.9% of the problems. Either way, you are prepared for most of what you are likely to encounter.

I like John and have trained with him a lot, but he made a significant error in that, IMO. When one controls for the unusual things that LE has to do, the true DEFENSIVE use for revolvers OR autoloaders is still around the 2-3 number. Where things get screwed around is when 3 officers shoot 44 rounds while chasing after a suspect, or the time that over 100rounds were fired at a suspect during a foot pursuit that went on for something like 6 blocks. CCW folks shouldn't find themselves in those more "offensive" shooting situatioins.

So let me catch up:

1. We're holding the NYPD up as marksmanship examples.
2. We're assuming you've fired five rounds off, not touched a perp and we're still on our feet.

Interesting. Seems likes there is some mental massage going on here (edited).

Michael, your post fails to address the most important question of CCW. The correct question is which gun gives you the best chance of landing your first couple of shots? Assuming you are going to get more than that is mistake. Once you've answered that question, buy that gun, then worry about the rest of the details.

As for your brushing off the apples and oranges comment, your response that it's not relevant shows your lack of experience on the subject. Guns are tools, not status symbols. You buy a certain tool for a certain situation, the guns you mention are for two different applications in that you can do some things with a J frame, you can't do with another and vice versa.

That said, I carry a 442 and another gun, what else depends on the scenario, at all times. There are some really good Jerry Miculek videos that address that J frame accuracy and reloading. It all comes down to practice, awareness and your ability to perform in a shooting situation, not the rounds in the magazine or cylinder. JMO

These guys have given you some good info and have experience, good luck with your choice.

A cop's job is to take the fight to the criminal till he achieves victory, i.e., either the criminal is shot or arrested. The job of the concealed carry civilian is to save his own skin, and/or that of another. Most bad guys make tracks when confronted with an armed intended victim, and the victim, unlike a cop, is under no obligation to catch him and bring him to justice, forcing him to make a choice between winning in a shootout or being sent back to the slammer.

Perfectly valid point, but the revolver has advantages that the semiauto doesn't, pushing the scale in the other direction. For example, with a revolver, dry fire drills are recommended and advantageous, while not so with a semiauto. This is because dry fire drills with a semiauto like the 9c will ingrain a dangerous motor memory, i.e., to fire one round then rack the slide. No such problem with a double action revolver, as no racking of a slide is needed to squeeze the trigger two or three consecutive times after the draw. As a result, the owner of a double action revolver may beneficially engage in dry fire drills constituting hundreds of trigger pulls per day, and this without having to purchase any ammunition. Dry fire drills, with a double action revolver, can beneficially make up 90% of your training. Unless you live where you can shoot in your backyard, or have practical access to a range every day, and can afford truck loads of 9mm ammo, the double action revolver has this significant training advantage.

Since last adding my two cents to this thread, I have seen some articles that have been published to offer arguments against some of the draconian magazine capacity bans some states have enacted. Massad Ayoob, for example brought up some real world civilian shooting incidents where the availability of higher capacity weapons, and multiple weapons ended the fight in favor of the civilian crime target. I will simply add that the capacity of the handgun you carry should be relative to the situations you may find yourself encountering an armed threat. If you must go every day and run the gauntlet of armed criminals, then two of the highest capacity pistols available might be the minimum you should consider. If you are suburbia where the biggest risk you take is going to an ATM, then a five shot revolver may be all that you'll ever need. I would go so far as to say that a small, concealable handgun and a couple of reloads are all most CCW holders will ever require if they wind up in an armed confrontation. Remember that all it takes to end a violent encounter is one, well placed shot - most of the time. Whether you carry a crew served weapon, or a little bitty Beretta 21A in .22 LR, you should train so much with that pistol so that every time you press the trigger, you score a hit in a vital area on whatever target you're using for training so that in the real world, you score vital hits. There ain't nothing wrong with a five shot 642, and if a 642 works, consider carrying two. They're light and relatively easy to carry.

I don't believe in switching carry guns or switching methods of carry.

I carry a 642 in my pocket, regardless, summer, winter, spring of fall. Regardless of what I'm wearing.

If I need my gun, I want to get it without thinking, without wondering if its in my pocket, on my belt or in the truck.

Consistency is the best practice. My primary carry gun on or off the clock is currently an M&P 45 FS in a strong side holster. That's how I was trained. My 640 BUG rides in a High Noon Mr. Softy in the appendix position. I am comfortable either way. I used to carry a BUG on my ankle, but that more or less stopped as my back started giving me problems. Pocket carry, if done properly is a great way to always have a gun on you, unnoticed. My problem is that currently, I carry too much other **** in my pockets. Whatever the case, the gun you have on you at the time you need a gun is the best gun you have.