Which is more important?

[Rastoff]

Carrying a gun that's easy to carry or carrying a gun that you shoot well?

Is it valuable that you just have a gun?

[The Big D]

Though I believe a gun owner should be able to shoot everything he/she owns "well," easy to carry is way more important. That's provided it isn't a derringer, or .22, .25, or something.

And, NO, it's not valuable just to have a gun if one doesn't know how or, more importantly, WHEN to shoot it.

Be safe.

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Carrying a gun that's easy to carry or carrying a gun that you shoot well?

Is it valuable that you just have a gun?

[66Park]

I think you should choose a gun you can shoot well that is easy to carry. What's the point in having a gun that is easy to carry if you can't hit well with it? What's the point of having a gun you shoot well if it doesn't conceal well or is so heavy that you leave it at home?

[gdnagle]

Well if you can't shoot it well it won't matter if it's easy to carry as it won't do you any good. If I could only shoot a full size well, I would find a way to carry it. Carrying a firearm that's easy to carry but you can't shoot well, you might as well be a poser as you could get the wrong person hurt.

[WR Moore]

To quote a couple of well known people:
1. Clint Smith:"Carrying a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable."
2. Paraphrase of Mas Ayoob: "A gun doesn't act like a garlic wreath to a vampire, you have to be prepared and able to use it."

I tend to carry full size pistols as they're easier to shoot well and generally are more reliable. In addition, they frequently hold more ammunition. Yes, you should carry extra ammo.

[chief38]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Carrying a gun that's easy to carry or carrying a gun that you shoot well?

Is it valuable that you just have a gun?

Both are equally important.

If you are so uncomfortable carrying it you will tend to leave it home - which is useless should you need it.

If you can't shoot it well, than what's the point of carrying it?

BOTH ARE EQUAL AS I SEE IT.

[snubbyfan]

Fortunately, I can shoot a dao J frame snubby well and carry a 442 concealed.
However the only reason I can shoot it well is that I had lotsa practice with it. To me it's my shoot often, carry always gun. Lotsa practice, both dry fire and live fire.
In my opinion it's, learn to shoot a concealed carry gun well before you carry it and continue practicing with it.
As chief38 said, "If you can't shoot it well, than what's the point of carrying it?"

[Smitty357]

Just carry 2.

One that u shoot well and the other that carries easy. Use which ever one u get ur hands on first. =-). Problem solved

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by gdnagle

Well if you can't shoot it well it won't matter if it's easy to carry as it won't do you any good.

I completely agree.

I asked this question because I see a lot of people getting a carry gun for what I think is the wrong reason; easy to carry. I personally know at least three guys who carry tiny guns because they fit in their pocket. None of them can shoot a group smaller than 10" at 7 yards with these tiny guns no matter how much time they have. Worse, because they shoot them so horribly, they almost never practice with them. One guy actually said to me, "Well, I can't group that well with it so, it's a waste of ammo to practice much with it. I'd rather use my other gun for that."

I also hear this comment a lot, "It's my carry gun so, I won't shoot it much." That's a discussion for another thread.

So, why do so many buy guns solely based on the size?

[blujax01]

It seems that most carry conversation centers around "it's small and doesn't weigh much" or "you'll hardly know it's there" as opposed to "this fits your hand well, has the capacity you want, and you can hit the point of aim easily. Of course, now we need to learn how to change your mode of dress in order to accommodate this sucker."

Carrying a gun isn't easy. It's damn hard and a huge responsibility. These ain't cell phones - you know?

[Don 73]

It's kind of like a sliding scale with "Easy to Carry" on one end and "You Shoot it Well" on the other. There has to be a balance. If it's easy to carry, that might mean the gun is a minor caliber and not the best choice for self defense, whereas if it's a gun you shoot well, it could be a big 'ol honkin full-sized cannon that's impossible to conceal. You have to make the choice on where YOU put the most value.

Personally, I think my 9c is just about right for 24/7/365, a proven caliber in a midsized package.

[Murdock]

A teensy, tiny Walther TPH is part of the display set up I use teaching NRA courses in personal protection. I use it because so many CCW students want something they think will be easy to carry and conceal comfortably.

Then I let them try to shoot it. So far it appears that I am the only person in North America that can make this little gun cycle through a full magazine without a FTF. Despite the little gun's quality it is very fussy about ammo and requires a surprisingly firm grip for reliability while avoiding hand placement that can retard slide movement.

Some stuff is just too small to work. Getting a gun that is a pleasure to own and shoot can make it much more comfortable and pleasant to carry.

And remember that the belt is just as important as the holster for comfortable, secure carry.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

So, why do so many buy guns solely based on the size......

I asked this question because I see a lot of people getting a carry gun for what I think is the wrong reason; easy to carry. I personally know at least three guys who carry tiny guns because they fit in their pocket.

I carry an LCP for ease of carry. Pocket carry.

Rule#1 for me is that if I intend to be able to use a gun for self defense I need to have it with me. I'm not going to carry my full size handguns, so that's that.

Just for forum posting... I drove across the street to the club today and shot a mag with my LCP.

27' from me to the target, (about 24' muzzle to target when shooting). The sights on the LCP ain't 'much to begin with, and my eyes are old and tired so I pretty much just keep a general fuzz aim. The below is perfectly acceptable to me for self defense.

I drop an LCP in my pocket in the morning and it stays there until I go to bed at night. I carry the LCP for the wrong reason?

[WR Moore]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

So, why do so many buy guns solely based on the size?

Because it's easy and requires no commitment. And besides, you're never going to need it.

A friend of a friend was 6'5" and 270 or so lbs. His carry gun was a Walther PPK or PPK/S because anything larger was an intolerable burden. Of course, he didn't shoot it much because when he did, the slide cut grooves in his hand.

This would be avoidable with a larger weapon better suited to his size, but, since it was an intolerable burden.................... Circular argument that rationalizes his situation.

Anyone else remember Jay's sidearm in "Men in Black"?

[walkin' trails]

When it comes to carrying.a pistol, many who are required to or choose to carry prefer the smallest, lightest package they can find. Seldom do they think about how the gun will handle when they shoot it. Upon learning that their chosen piece behaves badly when putting rounds down range, some may simply not seek to shoot it anymore they they will still carry it. I have had more than a few tell me they don't like five shot revolvers because they got to shoot one once and didn't shoot well. Any gun you carry must be a gun you will also commit to training with regardless of size. A five shoy revolver or micro 9 or 380 may not be anyone's ideal target pistol, but if you're going to carry a pistol for defense, but with practice are a lot more accurate than people realize.

[Old cop]

I've been carrying some sort of J frame for over 40 years. During my LEO career I had to qualify w/it for back-up authorization. In retirement I practice monthly and have become competent w/it. A full size revolver is just too much weight and too difficult to hide on my skinny frame.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

The below is perfectly acceptable to me for self defense.

If you can do that every time and can get two shots, at that distance, in a group like that, in under 2.5 seconds, while presenting from concealment, then I'd agree that that is good shooting too.

However, if it took you 10 minutes to get those 6 shots then it's not acceptable.

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

I carry the LCP for the wrong reason?

My statement was over simplified. If the only reason you carry that gun is because it's small, then it's the wrong reason. But, if you can shoot it like I stated above, then it's a reasonable gun for carry.


The gun you carry doesn't have to be the gun you shoot best. That is an oversimplification. It should be the gun you can shoot adequately to protect yourself. Again, I would qualify adequate as:

• 2 controlled shots within a hand span of each other.
• Those two shots must be approximately in the middle of the chest.
• They must be shot starting from concealment.
• They must be delivered in 2.5 seconds or less at 7 yards. Faster for closer distances.

In my opinion, if you can't do that with your carry gun, why carry? Thus, selecting a gun solely for size is a moot point if you can't hit with it.

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Carrying a gun that's easy to carry or carrying a gun that you shoot well?

With the incredible number of firearm-holster-belt options, there's really no need to choose comfortable carry versus quality shooting.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

If you can do that every time and can get two shots, at that distance, in a group like that, in under 2.5 seconds, while presenting from concealment, then I'd agree that that is good shooting too.

However, if it took you 10 minutes to get those 6 shots then it's not acceptable.


My statement was over simplified. If the only reason you carry that gun is because it's small, then it's the wrong reason. But, if you can shoot it like I stated above, then it's a reasonable gun for carry.


The gun you carry doesn't have to be the gun you shoot best. That is an oversimplification. It should be the gun you can shoot adequately to protect yourself. Again, I would qualify adequate as:

• 2 controlled shots within a hand span of each other.
• Those two shots must be approximately in the middle of the chest.
• They must be shot starting from concealment.
• They must be delivered in 2.5 seconds or less at 7 yards. Faster for closer distances.

In my opinion, if you can't do that with your carry gun, why carry? Thus, selecting a gun solely for size is a moot point if you can't hit with it.

Didn't draw the gun from the holster. Took it easy... about a second between shots. Little LCP shoots pretty well. How I would perform in a high-stress life and death situation, regardless of what size gun is in my hand remains to be seen, and hopefully remains so.

I know a LOT of guys who carry at the club. Rarely does anyone carry a full size gun, yet most own several. Most carry compact and subcompact guns, or go unarmed.

21' is the standard that folks repeat from the FBI, but for average Jack and Jill carrying a gun I don't believe they are as likely to be squeezing off rounds at 21' or more in self defense as they are at arms length or a few feet away.

Those are fine standards you've set for yourself, but to imply that it's useless for anyone to carry who does't perform to those standards is silly. Lots of folks successfully defend themselves who don't meet any of those criteria.

How many rounds did GZ fire and at what distance to get the guy off his chest?

The reality is that most folks don't practice much at all regardless of what size gun they carry. There's something like 15,000 with carry permits in the county that I live in. If they all showed up to the pistol clubs around here just once a month there would be lines miles long.

[Waywatcher]

Well, I think its important to have a couple guns suitable for carry, each little bit different in size and weight, but overall operation, feel, and pointability must be similar.

For example, for those times that I really don't feel like carrying a gun, a snubby in the pocket. (Favorite is an LCR with Lasergrips.) When my planned attire is sufficient, a compact automatic OWB. (Favorite is a Glock 23.)

Options are good; for me, no one choice is perfect everyday.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

... How I would perform in a high-stress life and death situation, regardless of what size gun is in my hand remains to be seen, and hopefully remains so.

Those are fine standards you've set for yourself,...

Not "standards", rather something to create at least a little realism. Obviously we can't recreate a real scenario. However, using a timer adds a little stress. It helps you judge how you would do under pressure. Not perfect, but it helps.

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

...but to imply that it's useless for anyone to carry who does't perform to those standards is silly. Lots of folks successfully defend themselves who don't meet any of those criteria.

I'm not trying to say that if you can't meet some arbitrary standard then it's useless to carry. What I am saying is that if you only practice by calmly shooting in an air conditioned building and taking your time on every shot, you're fooling yourself to think that you'll perform like that under stress.


And, yes, I do think that every one of those 15,000 CCW holders in your county should practice with the gun they carry at least once a month. At the very least they should be doing dry practice at home. If it did create a line out the door, maybe more shooting places would open up. Wouldn't that be a good thing? Don't you want people who carry a gun to be proficient with it?

At my last CCW qualification class there were 18 students. I was the only one who had a group smaller than 5". Only one other guy and myself kept all our shots on the paper. I can't prove it, but I'll bet at least 12 of those in my class hadn't shot their guns since the last time they qualified (2 years prior). I know for sure that at least 4 of them hadn't because they told me so. It is their right to do that. It is their right to carry. I think they are fooling themselves thinking that they'll be effective under the stress of a real life threatening situation. I mean, if you can't keep it on the paper under calm situations, what makes you think you'll do better under stress?

[Bill Bates]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Carrying a gun that's easy to carry or carrying a gun that you shoot well?

Is it valuable that you just have a gun?

This is easy; if you can't get the rounds quickly and accurately on target with your firearm there isn't much point in carrying that firearm. Getting fast and accurate requires range time and lots of rounds down that range. Some of the easily concealable small handguns can be down right painful to shoot. If it is painful you won't put in the range time to get quick and accurate.

With the number of good concealment rigs out there most handguns can be concealed comfortably. It may just take time finding the right setup.

So I say that having a firearm you shoot accurately, shoot quickly and will shoot often should be what you carry. Caliber and easy of carry are well down my list of importance.

[Highhawk1948]

You got to be able to hit what you are shooting at. I believe that you need to carry a gun that you are very proficient with.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Not "standards", rather something to create at least a little realism. Obviously we can't recreate a real scenario. However, using a timer adds a little stress. It helps you judge how you would do under pressure. Not perfect, but it helps.

I'm not trying to say that if you can't meet some arbitrary standard then it's useless to carry. What I am saying is that if you only practice by calmly shooting in an air conditioned building and taking your time on every shot, you're fooling yourself to think that you'll perform like that under stress.

Sure you did. [[ if you can't do that with your carry gun, why carry? ]] You just didn't like it when I pointed it out.

Of course more practice is better, and the more you demand of yourself can only help and can't hurt. But the fact of the matter is that no one knows how they are going to perform under high stress if and when the time comes, the first time.

In any event, getting back to the original point, I choose small and light guns to carry because they are small and light. I learn to shoot them to my satisfaction. The J frame is the most popular frame size for personal defense so says S&W. My guess is that folks are not buying small, light (particularly airweights), five-shot revolvers with short sight radius and long double action trigger because that makes them inherently easier to shoot more accurately and better for extended gun fights. I figure a lot of folks they buy them because they are small, more convenient to carry than larger guns like a full size 1911, and then learn to shoot them to their satisfaction. That's why I bought my J frame. Wrong reason again?

Sure, there are folks who just can't learn to shoot some guns. Some people are too weak and feeble to handle some guns, both large and small. Others can't deal with a particular grip angle... long pull double action... all sorts of reasons. And if you can't shoot whatever gun you have to your satisfaction I would suggest you replace it. Whether it be a full size gun or subcompact.

[SgtLumpy]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

...I choose small and light guns to carry because they are small and light. I learn to shoot them to my satisfaction. The J frame is the most popular frame size for personal defense so says S&W. My guess is that folks are not buying small, light (particularly airweights), five-shot revolvers with short sight radius and long double action trigger because that makes them inherently easier to shoot more accurately and better for extended gun fights. I figure a lot of folks they buy them because they are small, more convenient to carry than larger guns like a full size 1911, and then learn to shoot them to their satisfaction. That's why I bought my J frame. Wrong reason again?

I don't think you chose a J frame for any wrong reason. You learn to shoot them to your satisfaction. Can't go wrong with that kind of approach.

But I'm guessing that most people don't do that. There's probably a lot of people (most?) who can't make a logical and reasonable "learn to shoot them to their satisfaction" decision. Hardly anybody knows what it's going to be like IF they have to use their gun in self defense. So that makes it hard to set goals for "I should be able to do this or that".

I think there's also a lot of people who think that they can never get accurate with a snub. So they "settle" for the broad side of the barn and don't train to get any better.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who goes to the range and sees a lot of people with handguns firing at 5 yards, slow fire, and hitting a basketball sized circle or worse. And those aren't just snubs. I see full size tupperware shooters doing that. They fire 10-15 rounds then go home.

I don't think it's a good idea to choose one or the other in "easy to carry" vs "shoots well". Probably because the problem with "shoots well" is not in the hardware, it's in the shooter.

WhatEVER gun(s) you decide to carry, I think learning to shoot them very well is vital. But again, even with that, lots of people are going to leave it at basketball sized 5yard slow fire because they think that's "as well as this gun will get".


Sgt Lumpy

[Bkreutz]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I completely agree.

I asked this question because I see a lot of people getting a carry gun for what I think is the wrong reason; easy to carry. I personally know at least three guys who carry tiny guns because they fit in their pocket. None of them can shoot a group smaller than 10" at 7 yards with these tiny guns no matter how much time they have. Worse, because they shoot them so horribly, they almost never practice with them. One guy actually said to me, "Well, I can't group that well with it so, it's a waste of ammo to practice much with it. I'd rather use my other gun for that."

I also hear this comment a lot, "It's my carry gun so, I won't shoot it much." That's a discussion for another thread.

So, why do so many buy guns solely based on the size?

Simple, blunt answer: They're stupid. (sorry if that offends anyone but if a firearm is bought solely for size, it's stupid) Size can be a consideration in the decision, but that's not how the question was phrased.

[wildenout]

Shoot well, shooting well is the most important factor IMO. Since you can conceal almost anything if you try hard enough.

[feralmerril]

I didnt read all the many posts but we are told the average gun fight is usualy under 7 yards or less? Feet? You should be able to hit someone with a rock at that distance. Besides a decent caliber (at least .38) I would and do carry a J frame. I guess there are small 9mm`s out there too. We tend to carry whats comfortable and fudge packing the heavy stuff once we are past the novelty of it.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Bkreutz

Simple, blunt answer: They're stupid.

I think it's ignorance more than stupidity. A person wants to increase their ability to defend themselves so, they get a gun. Because they know little to nothing about guns, they pick one that is light and easy to conceal. The actual shooting is a secondary thought.

Then, because they have a gun, they feel safe. The truth is that they know not how to deploy this gun. Thus, they have a false sense of security.

Anyone here know the 4 levels of competence?

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by SgtLumpy

I don't think you chose a J frame for any wrong reason. You learn to shoot them to your satisfaction. Can't go wrong with that kind of approach.

But I'm guessing that most people don't do that. There's probably a lot of people (most?) who can't make a logical and reasonable "learn to shoot them to their satisfaction" decision. Hardly anybody knows what it's going to be like IF they have to use their gun in self defense. So that makes it hard to set goals for "I should be able to do this or that".

I think there's also a lot of people who think that they can never get accurate with a snub. So they "settle" for the broad side of the barn and don't train to get any better.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who goes to the range and sees a lot of people with handguns firing at 5 yards, slow fire, and hitting a basketball sized circle or worse. And those aren't just snubs. I see full size tupperware shooters doing that. They fire 10-15 rounds then go home.

I don't think it's a good idea to choose one or the other in "easy to carry" vs "shoots well". Probably because the problem with "shoots well" is not in the hardware, it's in the shooter.

WhatEVER gun(s) you decide to carry, I think learning to shoot them very well is vital. But again, even with that, lots of people are going to leave it at basketball sized 5yard slow fire because they think that's "as well as this gun will get".


Sgt Lumpy

I agree.

And yes, it's common to see folks at a gun range that shoot as you describe. Most of the highly advanced shooters are on the Internet.

[SgtLumpy]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

I agree.

And yes, it's common to see folks at a gun range that shoot as you describe. Most of the highly advanced shooters are on the Internet.

Bring targets with the holes already in them. If anybody asks, say "I'm shooting through the holes that are already there"


Sgt Lumpy