If you can only get your hands on 115 grs JHP or 147 grs flat point 9mm, which one is considered the better defensive round?

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I'm going toward the heavier end. 115 grain loads are unimpressive to me.

I'd go with the 147 grain rounds. I use 115 grain JRN for practice, but I'd prefer a heavier round for self defense use.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

ill go with the jhp

Hollow points over flat/fmj, even at the weight difference.

115 JHP for sure over a flat nose 147. Even if the 147 is a JHP I'd have to know which 147 gr JHP before I'd ever carry it. I investigated 7 shootings where a PD used the old W-W 147 Subsonic rd. Totally unimpressive. We carried various 115 over the years with the last being W-W 115 +P+ JHP. The 147 the PD was using was a total failure compared to the results we were getting with the 115 +P+. Of the 147 we were able to recover none had any expansion at all. The holes they put in the bad guy looked like they'd been shot with FMJ. It would have to be the new 147 stuff before I'd ever carry it. The old 147 didn't cut it.

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183rd FBINA

For defense against the two legged, the JHP. For four legged, the FMJ. Staggering the rounds works too, one JHP then one FMJ--repeat. If I had to pick between these two subpar choices, I'd probably stagger the rounds.

The JHP. If you shoot a flat nosed 147gr, you might just as well shoot the old round nose lead 158gr. .38 special.

The one that hits the target.

I recall reading about the same types of issues. The heavier, slower 147 grain just didn't have enough velocity to cause the bullet to expand.

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Proud anachronism

If I could only get those two calibers, I would carry another caliber gun. In 9MM I stick with 124 +P or 127 +P+.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

The range officer at the PD where I was working their shootings and I played with the 147s at the time to see what we could do to improve the performance of the 147. At the time actual velocity was coming out of their 6904/6906s at about 900 fps. We pulled the bullets and started reloading. It wasn't until we pushed those bullets to 1100 fps that we got reliable expansion. But we also had signs of excessive pressure.
Just as the PD was going to the 115 +P+ they got a deal from SIG on the then new 357 SIG rd. They went with that rd and have been very happy with its performance.
I haven't played with the 147 since then but reports are the newer stuff is improved over the old original W-W 147 Subsonic. Hope so.

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183rd FBINA

Kind of off topic, but not really, I'd like to se WW bring back the 147gr Silvertip 147 gr rounds. With the soft aluminum jacket, they expanded nicely.

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Don

Go with the jhp. For defensive purposes they are preferable to fmj. Even if it doesn't expand optimally, the worst case is it acts like a fmj.
The danger of the fmj is over penetration. A 95gr .380 round passes clear through a 20" block of gel...a 9mm passes through two of them!

Jhp

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i shoot what i practice with and that the 115 g very durable

Perhaps you need another cup of coffee before typing. So far, the discussion, at least in this thread, is about different bullet weights in the same caliber: 9mm.

I would never carry anything except JHP or something like the flextip type of expandible bullets.

For DEFENSE purposes I was always taught "the type (jhp vs fmj) is more important than the weight"....JHP.

I don't like 115gr. bullets in the 9x19mm, but I will NEVER carry FMJs for self-defense.

I would rather shoot an assailant five times with 115gr. JHPs than a bystander with through and through from an FMJ.

All of my 9x19mm guns have 147gr. JHPs in them.

Their White Box 147gr. JHPs tested well for both penetration and expansion. They're what I use.

Neither is good without proper shot placement. So which ever u chose to go with. Please make sure u get plenty of range time with that particular round.

Since I don't believe in Magic Bullets nor Magic Calibers...

I always recommend one carries what one shoots the best in ones particular gun...period.

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NULLI SECUNDUS

Wait... Is this a trick question?

On one hand, you have an expanding bullet that's likely to underpenetrate, and on the other, a non-expanding bullet that doesn't crush nearly as much tissue as the former.

I choose the third option: Doing my best to avoid putting myself in a position where I'm forced to choose between bad and worse.

ETA: Okay, if I really had no choice, for self defense purposes I'd choose the 115 gr. JHP.

For my guns, the 147s tend to give me a brass shower. I go with the 115s. Geoff Who had it happen with a Glock 26 as well.

The Federal 9BP (+p) and 9BPLE (+p+) are both 115 grain rounds with a good street track record (well placed shots). The Winchester 115 (+p+) also has a proven track record. The Speer 124s and the Winchester 127 are reliable. The Winchester Ranger 147 grain Bonded seems to expand reliably. The Federal HSTs are good modern designs with a reputation for performance. There us no reason to carry a flat point, FMJ or lead round nose as a defensive caliber thanks to modern ammo design and quality. The military carrys non expanding ammo because they are bound by convention. Us civilians are not, unless local laws apply.

12 gauge 00

Since many bullets launched in your "average" gunfight fail to even hit their intended target, over-penetration is not even a remote concern. I'd be far more worried about the rounds that miss the bad guy and go barreling along at full velocity.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

The 115gr JHP was designed to offer the potential for expansion, and has been a defensive bullet design for a long time.

The 147gr truncated cone MC bullet was designed as a (non-expanding) target bullet, as I recall, possessing some inherent stability to enhance target shooting, and it also punched neat holes in paper targets.

If it were me? If only able to choose between the 2 listed 9mm standard pressure loads, I'd choose the 115gr JHP for defensive application and the 147gr flat point MC bullet for target shooting.

There are any number of other hollowpoints I'd rather choose to use for defensive application with my own 9's, though.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

The only shooting involving 147 gr 9mm I know of up close and personal was the time I defended a guy in an armed robbery that took 5 147 gr flat points to the gut and lived to be tried. That told me everything I needed to know about 147gr 9mm's.
I'll take the 115

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Forum consigliere

Different folks had some different experiences and thoughts when the oft-denigrated 147gr OSM JHP was in common issue.

I was attending an instructor school back in '90, and I had a couple cases of the stuff to burn up (it was our issued load at the time). One of the other instructors was attending with a lot of the 115gr STHP load (also denigrated after the '86 FL shooting incident that was still in everybody's mind in LE).

When he found out I had the OSM load he offered to trade me 2-for-1 boxes of SilverTips for it. I asked why, and he said that a neighboring agency had recently had a shooting incident where a cop had been saved from an armed suspect while the cop had been climbing a fence. The cop apparently only had time for a single shot fired in defense, and the 147gr OSM load had fully penetrated during what amounted to an obliquely angled shot into the thickest part of the suspect's shoulder, going all the way into the suspect's heart and reportedly instantly dropping the suspect in his tracks. Being influenced by that one shooting incident, he really wanted that OSM load instead of his 115gr STHP's, but hadn't been able to find any. I had plenty, so I gave him a few boxes of it in the interest of allied agency relations.

Naturally, and thankfully, we have access to much improved 147gr loads nowadays.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

115gr JHP for me between those two choices.

115gr JHP...Why only two choices?...I like the middle choice of 124gr JHP +P in my 9mm's. Any sort of FMJ in 9mm has a deserved reputation for overpenetration and poor stopping. The slower, heavier bullet is even worse. In my younger days, when the 9mm was not well thought of, that was mostly based on shootings with FMJ ammo. I would expect the small meplat of the FMJFP to be little, if any, better.

147gr flat point please

The various bystanders hit by through and throughs fired by the NYPD when they foolishly clung to FMJs would disagree.

The last shooting investigation I did for the local PD when they were using W-W 147 gr subsonic was just before they went to the 357 SIG. Some of their officers were involve in a running gun battle with a subject. During the period of over 30 minutes they hit the guy 11 times COM and he kept running, hiding, and returning fire. Finally he ran out of ammo, sat down by an electric pole, and gave up. He'd been hit several more times in extremities but 11 were torso hits. He had holes thru both lungs and others gut shots. All of the rds were thru and thru. We never recovered any of them. All his holes looked like small going in and small going out and very little damage on the way thru. 2 weeks in the hospital and he was taken to jail. Their asst COP said anyone else with those wounds would have been released sooner but the jail wouldn't take him until they were sure he was OK.
As far as the 115 gr SilverTip it was our issued rd in 1980. 2 of our Troops got in a shootout with a biker near Joliet IL. The biker was wearing a heavy leather vest over a leather jacket. None of the rds penetrated deep enough to hit vitals. The biker emptied his 5 shot .38 jumped on his bike to flee and fell over from a heart attack. The SilverTips didn't kill him. It was a life of eating fatty foods and the stress of being shot at that killed him. We all got called and told to immediately stop carrying the Silvertip and carry something else until we could get an issued replacement. We got the Federal 115 BP after that.
When the FBI went to 9mm and began carrying the Silvertip our head range guys called Quantico and explained the problems we had with the Silvertip with the biker. They were sent our shooting investigation. The FBI didn't care. Back then they had their Computer Man model and RII for those of you old enough to remember that formula which told them the Silvertip was the best thing going. Rapid expansion, limited penetration. They didn't care what our experience was with the Silvertip, their computer told them different. Unfortunately they learned later exactly what we learned in 1980. We were lucky and none of our Troops were hurt. As most know, their results weren't so lucky.

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183rd FBINA

Aren't you glad you asked???

You will NOT get a straight answer from this crowd.................or any other........

because it is based on the "opinion" of each person posting!!

I love it when threads like this get totally derailed.

Get a 12ga. Get a 44mag. Carry an RPG.

Short rant over.

Carry JHP. Worst case, they'll probably perform just like the FMJ's if they don't expand.

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-Mike-

FMJs don't get bigger.

JHPs don't get SMALLER.

You lose nothing by using JHPs in any reasonably likely civilian self-defense scenario.

• I don't live in New Jersey (or visit for that matter).
• The Hague Conventions don't apply to a 2:00am visit to Giant Eagle.
• Most stickup men here don't wear body armor, nor do they attempt to rob you from inside a vehicle or from cover and concealment.

Yeah, I remember how the LEAA Computer Man simulation eventually worked out.

We were stuck with the 147gr OSM until we were able to put together enough money for some Federal 147gr Hydra-Shok for a while. However, then it was back to the Win or Rem 147gr old-style JHP's because they were on the state contract.

I was finally able to convince someone that we needed to scrape together the money for some RA9TA 127gr +P+, after some visiting fed's let us try some of theirs, and we finally ordered it and used it for a while. In more recent years it's either been the Rem HPJ/BJHP 124gr +P (non-bonded) or the Win RA9124TP +P that's been awarded the state contract, making both really affordable for duty, training & quals.

Haven't heard any rumbles about the new contract yet (last one was extended an extra year, until this Fall). Surprised neither Federal nor Speer have been awarded it over the years. Although the state agencies use .40, there are still enough other agencies using 9mm that it's remained on the state contract along with .40 ... but no .45 ACP. Not enough demand for it to be considered on the state contract/bid, I guess. (Which means agencies have to try and bargain with distributors for some kind of discount for their .45 users if they're ordering 9 & .40 at contract pricing.)

Hopefully, the 9mm will remain present in some middle weight +P version for the new contract, as it's enjoying a resurgence of interest out this way. It would be nice if .45 ACP was added, too, for the agencies that still issue or approve its use as an optional caliber.

It's never perfect, is it?

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

The Federal 115 grain 9BPLE +P is a great old round. Lotsa bad guys were well and truly chilled by that round. If it wasn't for a couple of the new 124s, I'd still carry that load

Sounds like a typical government response....ignore real world proof in favor of a theory.

I'm grateful for the best of both worlds...a heavy jhp with reliable expansion, specifically - 135gr Hornady Critical DUTY.
That's what I carry in my Browning HP.

Which ever load you can shoot accurately.
two rounds to the heart/lung area and two rounds to the face/head (upper lip area is best)

P.S. I use whatever load is available.

Well, dunno about the question, because I'm pretty new. I did want to ask, since the majority seem to favor JHP over FMJ for SD:

I can get aceptable FMJ RN target rounds in 124gr online (e.g. Freedom Munitions) reliably, and go to the range once a month.

I was going to order a couple boxes of Speer Gold Dot 124 hp #53618, shot half a box at range to make sure there are no issues, then load my SD mags with those, while continuing at the range with the target ammo.

I picked Speer Gold dot based on the reputation on the 'net, as well as their availability (i.e. Either online or at say Gander Mountain.). My (only) pistol is a M&P FS 9mm. I like the 124gr vs the 115, because the 'feel' of the 124 seems more 'solid' to me after shooting the 115/124 back to back at the range. I go to the range once a month to work on my bullet placement, so I can hit what I aim at.

Good plan?

Gold Dot is a premium bullet with LOTs of street cred in the law enforcement community. Better still (IMO) is the Hornady Critical Duty 135gr JHP. It has a plastic insert in the hollow point cavity which prevents clogging, and insures expansion. Federal HST rounds out the "Top 3". You can't go wrong with either.

JHP v. FMJ? Is this a serious question?

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Centennial Every Day

I've never heard of staggering rounds. I'm really interested in the 2 legged vs 4 legged threat issues. Most of our threats are 4 legged, so I've typically been carrying FMJ ammo loaded and a speed strip with JHP and another of FMJ as my backup reloads.

Not 9mm though, I carry a revolve so it's .357 for the FMJ and 38 spec +P for the JHP.

Which does your pistol shoot best? My Hi-Power hates 124's and 147's but loves 115's. My S&W 39 is less picky but likes the 115's too so that is what I load.

The correct answer is the one you can shoot the best, small group with fastest recovery.
Why?...the truth is it not what you shoot them with...it's where you shoot them. Hits win the day...a miss doesn't count for doodley-squat