I carry a 642 with Hornady Critical Defense +p ammo, and fortunately have never had to fire it in my own defense. I know that many on this forum, and elsewhere, carry this or similar j-frames and assume that if that emergency ever arises, this round from this gun will be sufficient to stop the threat. But do we have any real world evidence that can be shared that demonstrates the effectiveness of a 642 firing 38 ammo and saving the day?

bullet placement is the key factor. Center mass is your mantra. double taps are also helpful.

There's a reason the little 5-shot .38 snubs are still heavily marketed to LE, you know.

Also why some major agencies still issue (or at least authorize) them as secondary & off-duty weapons.

I attended a couple of 1-day in-service training classes a couple years ago. One was a traveling FBI program LEOKA class (Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted) and the other was also a field class, involving street survival tactics. Both classes included a number of examples of how small 5-shot snubs (and some .380's) had been effectively employed to save the lives of cops. The little snubs are still doing the job.

NYPD requested Speer to develop what became the 135gr +P Short Barrel load some years ago, and they wouldn't have gone to that trouble if the little 5-shot snub wasn't still a viable defensive weapon in certain roles. Winchester also developed the PDX1 130gr +P (same thing as the RA38B in 50-rd Ranger boxes) in recent years.

Unfortunately, the very attributes that make the venerable J-frames so attractive and useful as lawfully carried defensive handguns, also tend to make them more difficult to shoot for many folks. Even accomplished shooters of larger revolvers generally have to work to master the little snubs, and maintain their skills with them.

When I returned to carrying a J-frame after a hiatus of a few years (while carrying a 3913), I ordered my first Airweight. It was just after the 642-1's rated for a steady diet of +P had been released. Previously, I'd only owned steel J's (M36 3" HB & a 649 Bodyguard), and the Airweight was something new to me.

I ended up going through a couple of cases of ammo during the first several months of owning that 642. I needed to not only dust off my neglected DA revolver skills, but adjust to increased felt recoil of using +p loads in the little Airweight.

I was also lucky that I had the opportunity to practice with one of the early stainless 640 .38's (the version marked in the frame window as being rated for +P+), which was available in the training inventory. I used it to help burn up some cases of W-W .38 Spl 110gr +P+ loads that had been taken out-of-service. Those +P+ loads made for some snappy shooting, even in the all-steel 640, and it made shooting +P in my Airweight seem more pleasant.

Nowadays I presently own 7 J-frames. All but 2 of them are aluminum-framed, and they include a pair of 642-1's and M&P 340's.

Even after many cases of ammo being run through my growing number of J's since that first 642-1, I still make sure I keep my skills well practiced with them. Shooting is a perishable skill, after all, and the little J's usually require some dedicated practice in order to stay sharp with them.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Back in the day, the 38 Special, like the 9mm, was a Fifty-Percenter. With improved loads, hollow points that work, etc., the 38 Special and the 9mm have both come up in the world.

No handgun will reliably drop a determined adversary with one well-placed shot.

Remember the Texas Ranger's response to the lady who saw him at a social event with his 1911 and inquired whether he was "expecting trouble." The Ranger responded, "No ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle."

Personally, I would not rely on a 5 shot 38 Special revolver as my primary arm, but if I had no choice, I would make sure it was loaded with either the Winchester "FBI Load" or the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel load.

There is plenty of evidence where a 38 "saved the day" also plenty of evidence where a 45 (or the 38) didnt. Just a few years ago in my city a guy was shot 5 times with a 38 at close range and lived to sue. There were a group of them and after the first thug was shot and the guy defending himself was out of ammo. Luckily the others fled. Could have gone the other way.

Me personally, I'd want something with more than 5 or 6 shots with faster reload.

It's a snub pistol, not a death ray. I saved my bacon with a 442 and speer gold dot ammo, but one of the slugs was stopped by an arm bone (broke the bone).
Know one fellow who emptied a 1911 .45 into a perp and had to club him down with the empty gun.
No guarantees, just a weapon.

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Science plus Art

There's plenty of real-world evidence demonstrating the effectiveness and ineffectiveness of all handguns and calibers.

Why specifically the 642 rather than any 2" snubby in .38 Special? Results should be comparable whether 642, 49, 10 or Colt Cobra.

Nicely stated.

I remember reading of a situation where an off-duty cop was unable to stop a couple armed robbery suspects with his 5-shot snub, and yet another situation where another off-duty cop effectively used a 5-shot snub to shoot and stop 3 armed robbery suspects.

I also remember a local shooting where a 180gr .40 JHP hit a suspect's forearm and was deflected up the arm into the shoulder capsule, where it came to rest. Intervening limbs and bones can cause bullets to do unexpected things.

Some folks focus on the limited capacity of the 5-shot snubs. Ok, rightly so, but it's not exactly like it's automatically a "deal breaker" all the time. It's not like they're going to be carried as uniformed belt guns for everyday duty use on patrol, right?

Capacity. It's one of those calculated risks, balanced against other perceived needs.

Most of the older guys I know who carry 5-shot J's usually express that they're only carrying them in anticipation of hopefully only dealing with 1-2 potential attackers. (Ditto for the itty bitty .380's that have 6-rd magazines.)

We'd all like to be able to essentially fit a "full-size fighting handgun" (revolver or pistol) into our watch pockets, but that's not going to happen.

Now, some folks might not be able consistently control and accurately shoot more than a standard pressure target wadcutter or LSWC out of their J's. Others might find themselves restricted to only using jacketed ammo in their ultra light snubs. Some may prefer the old-style 158gr LSWC/LHP +P in their non-Ti/Sc/PD snubs. Some may like using .357 Magnum in their snubs.

Rounds-on-target, in a consistently accurate, controllable and effective manner.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

It will do the job, if you do yours. I used a Colt DS 2" .38 special on a charging Pit Bull. One round through the chest did the job. Shot placement is king. If you miss it doesn't matter what you are shooting, except maybe a flame thrower.

Yup, as long as you can put holes where they need to go.

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Keep on Chooglin'

The 38 has price itself for many years.

There is a history of the effectiveness of the J frame 2" and K frame 2" going back several decades with the 38 spec +P FBI load. Speer markets a short barrel hollow point load developed to be effective in snubbies. There are several books out there on the subject, written by LE personnel. Crillo is one of the authors.

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Can my S&W Mdl 10 shoot +P

J frames are more difficult to shoot well than many other handguns.

Accordingly, they require dedicated training and practice: more than is true for many other weapons.

All that said, a 38 (including target wc loads) will definitely to the job IF you hit what you shoot at.

If you can't hit reliably, with speed, more ammo or more gee whiz ammo won't help.

I can provide a real world example, but with my issued Colt Detective Special (similar in size to the J frame) in 1974. A local liquor store was held up and I became "engaged" in a protracted gun battle w/the bad guy. The little Colt (I was a plain clothes detective at the time) took care of the problem, albeit w/more than one round center mass.

I'm a retired old guy now and no longer go in harm's way so a small .38 is all I need. Practice often and carry w/confidence.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

More than 14000 days toting a gun. I daresay 10000 of those days were whilst rocking j-frame.

Yessir, did 'use' a j-frame on and off duty. Never found someone who was willing or needed to get shot but suspect my little 5-shot revolver was up to the challenge...as it were.

Rolled with one today and reinforced my opinion that a j-frame with a Remora IWB at about 1600 is just about the perfect CCW.

I like simplicity and reliability and will forever choose those values over weapon 'systems and platforms,' espoused by some.

Be safe.

Not bad for a self-proclaimed gimpy injun!

Thanks, that was a stressful day at the range. I hadn't shot a gun for a couple of years since the onset on my neuropathy but I still did my dryfire practice. On the way there I was thinkin' that I'd be happy if I could still get it on the paper.
Turns out I outshot my buddy and his .45 Springfield Tactical.
Here's an interesting thought; I wonder if my neuropathy enables me to move my fingers independent of one another. Like move my trigger finger without tightening my grip, helping in accuracy? I did have to do some trigger work and there ain't no way I could shoot it with a smaller grip.
I was delighted with my shootin' that day.
I can't work a fork or write with my right hand but by golly I can still shoot my snubby.

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Keep on Chooglin'

Just so happens the last two homicide scenes I was on were both done with one shot from a .22 LR handgun (one a Ruger Bearcat and the other a Browning Buckmark). I suppose a .38 snub can do the job. As already noted shot placement counts.

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- Change it back -

I can tell you from personal experience that the .38 Special fired from short barrels is marginal for 250 pound "game."
If you were hunting a 250 pound Deer would you carry a M642? Doubtful.
Just as a .30-30 stoked with 150 grain JSP slugs at 2,400 fps will SLAM a deer in its tracks, it will do the same to a human.

So we KNOW the .38 Special is marginal.

Shot placement is KEY...BRAIN, or directly down the MIDLINE of the target hoping the slugs reach the Central Nervous System!
Even a hit to the BRAIN CASE with a low-powered round is no assurance of a "one-shot stop" due to the homeostatic nature of human physiology.
Piercing the skull will usually result in rapid swelling of brain tissue with a concommitant "set down" of the brain stem onto the Foramen Magnum leading to respiratory cessation...but it's NOT INSTANT!
Just ask Gabby Giffords.
People HAVE been shot "clean through" the head with a .38 special with no significant damage...I know, I was there.
The reason is because of "low power"....LOW KINETIC ENERGY!
A NON-expanding 7.62x51 NATO round through a human head will result in massive cranial fragmentation and deformation, with secondary "missile" formation that pulverizes soft tissue (dura matter) and causes INSTANT cessation of human action, with death only seconds away....that is ALL ABOUT SPEED and NOTHING about "expansion."

Slow bullets simply do not disrupt tissue beyond the "bow wave" of the bullet's track, and even such disruption as does occur is inconsequential.

This is WHY bullets moving above the SoS...regardless of "mass" are more lethal than those moving below the SoS. The farther above the SoS, the more violent the secondary effects....just look at how the 5.56x45 acts when fired from barrels longer than 16".

So the bottom line is, you carry a .38 caliber for convenience....concealability. When your time comes, do your best to shoot directly into the FACE/HEAD using the most powerful HP ammo you can find....

You're not volunteering to stand in front of a 642 loaded with puny 38 sp RN lead are you?

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Sure you did

Well, I guess I'll throw my 2¢ into the pot. I've had a snub revolver in one form or another ever since I came out of my Academy, back in early 1980. 1st o/d gun I ever bought was an NIB 2" S&W M-10, blued rd, butt. All these years later, the 2" M-10 is regrettably gone, but I have a Colt Cobra, ColtAgent, & my primary little companion, a 642 L/S, with a factory Magna-Ported bbl. ( From a 1996 or so special run by RSR Whlse. ) I's loaded with CCI's 135 GDHP+P. I used to use a limited amount of Buffalo Bore's 158 LSWC-HP+P in it, but althoughth the load shot right on, the GDHP's seem milder, & allow much more rapid shot placement. Sometimes I'm tempted to carry one of my Colt's, but although a somewhat larger revolver, I honestly shoot much better with the ported 642. The primary thing(s) to remember with a snub are; "Shoot center mass, mid sternum, always shoot 2 twice, & lastly, watch your distance. Snub's are excellent for up close & personal encounters, say from 0 to the 7 yard line. Remember, if the threat is too far away for decent, rapid hits, he may also be too far away to a lethal threat, thereby not warranting use of a firearm." If you remember the snub's limitations, load it with suitable ammunition, & practice at least occasionaly with your intended carry load, the 2" bbl "snub-nosed" revolver should serve you quite well.

dpast32

Real world, my daughter dropped a bad guy , J-frame 38 special. 1 -shot center torso . Bullet lodged against his spine. He fell backwards , dropped his 9mm and the cash box he was carrying. The police were impressed. She never got her gun back. The " Evidence" got lost.
It will work. She didn't have to shoot him but once either.

I am curious old cop. In that engagement how many rounds do you think you fired ?

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Hook686

Why, how dare you speak such heresy! Just the wind from Ultra-Macho Belchfire 500 is enough to knock a bad guy into the next state....

Over the years I have heard afficioados of every round carried on the street preach to me about how their favorite round will save humanity, fight back the zombie horde, and put sushi on everone's dining table. Truth seems to be that they all seem to work about the same. Use what you are comfrotable with and practice like crazy with it so you may stand a chance if you ever need it. Oh, and don't forget a healthy dose of prayer every night.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

^^^ Precisely ^^^ The Ranger was spot on. SD is one thing, but if you know there's gonna be a gunfight, better bring something you need two hands to carry and operate.

I was out with my lady friend shooting on Monday night. After she had placed around 30 holes in a man-sized target with her Glock 19, I shot it once with a 16-gauge pump, #6 shot from about 25 ft. The look on her face was priceless, and the visual was much more effective than me flapping my gums trying to explain it to her.

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Because of the metric system?

I don't disagree with the constantly repeated statement about carrying the hand gun that you shoot best with, but for me, and I guess many others, its a 22LR with at least a 4 inch barrel. I also know that if ever needed in a life threatening situation, excellent shot placement will not be an easy, and possibly not even a likely outcome. So 22 is not the caliber I chose for carrying. The two guns that I use for carrying, the 642 and a Ruger LCP are both guns that I find unpleasant to shoot and this gives me a nagging feeling that I won't likely be effective with either one when the adrenaline is pumping through my veins. So I went out a bought a new 9mm compact pistol, with good sights and a heft that should make it pleasant and fun to practice with. I guess after this post I will see several comments about how effective the 22LR round can be after all, or that I am foolish to stop carrying the 642.

Not from me. A j-frame takes a good bit of practice with to be effective. I would venture to say that most shooters would be more effective with a compact 9mm, if it worked for their carry habits.

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Because of the metric system?

when i carry my j's, its 2. my 442, and my old trusty 37. i don't feel "under gunned". i settled on hornady 158 gr. ftx in non +p. 2 speed strips also ride along. hope the need never arises, but if it does i feel confident in my ability and my j's to handle it.

I have a 442. I have Winchester "Defend" rounds in it. That's about as far up the scale as I want to go. +P is distinctly unpleasant to shoot in the gun. I could carry a gun that is more comfy at shooting +P, but then I'm adding another 8-10oz.

Maybe that's not a good trade-off in your opinions. It is in mine. I'm probably more likely to be in a car wreck than a gunfight, and yet I don't wear a crash helmet in my car.

Whenever I follow a discussion on effectiveness of .38 snubs, the infamous images of Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald in November, 1963 come back to me. I recall Ruby used a Colt lightweight .38 snub, instead of a j-frame, and the bullet was an unremarkable lead projectile.

Perhaps the value of this reference is the distance, or range, in which this fatal incident, where only one round was fired, took place. It was close, and is likely representative of the distance a personal defense might occur. A diminutive S&W 442 would seem easier to retrieve and deploy, compared to a larger arm.

Yes, because as we've learned on this forum, grizzly bears have been killed with the .22 and mob hitmen favor it, so it must be an effective self defense round.

Don't forget about the effectiveness of the .380! One shot from unskilled hands.
73-year-old Omahan shoots man coming through window of his home - Omaha.com: Crime & Courts

I am quite sure that the perp's psychological realization of "I've been shot!" has a lot more to do with things then we may give credit for, at least with handguns.

Maybe, but how much do you want to count on it?

Vito, I would not even begin to disagree with you. My premise is that you carry and shoot what is most comfortable for you. I shoot standard pressure loads in my 642 for that reason. Hitting your target is the goal and bad guys are not impressed if your hand is aching after shooting at them (and missing) with something that is uncomfortable to handle.

More power to you!

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

LOL- absolutely not! Just because most who are shot with low powered handgun rounds "survive" doesn't mean I want to take my chances soaking up 1-5 rounds of high performance HP ammo!
BUT IF....IF I were somehow to find myself in a murderous rage, and "bum-rushing" someone (which I actually would never do), the odds of me being "put down" with one, two, or all five, are low UNLESS one of those rounds strikes the central nervous system and "cuts the wires" as it were. This is WHY, close range defense using a low-powered handgun against a maniac rushing toward you with a large knife, machete, or sword is a BAD IDEA! The odds are HIGH the blade-weilder will make contact and large-blade impacts on the human body are VERY effective!
Certainly the person might die rather quickly AFTER inflicting a mortal wound to the shooter.
Now, switch from a 250 lb-ft of KE .38 Spl from a 1.875" barrel to a 10mm delivering 833 lb-ft of KE from a Glock 20 stoked with Underwood 155 grain JHP - SIXTEEN of them! THAT would be a vastly different outcome because the 10mm bullet is travelling FAST...carrying lots of kinetic energy, and will create a great deal of tissue destruction that equates to non-adapatable wounds.

But back to YOUR point...no, of course I understand the lethality of a .38 spl....and a .22 LR.

Groin,navel, sternum, face......climb the ladder and very few mopes can handle it.

Clint Smith says you don't carry a gun to be comfortable, you carry it because it's comforting.

The point being, it's a nasty world out there, we all know the mere presence of a weapon has deterred many a bad guy, and we all know that shot placement is the key. The POINT of carrying a snub gun is personal self defense and MAYBE the defense of a third person. Getting into a protracted gun fight is extremely rare for non-police civilians and getting into ANY gunfight at long range is even more rare, and not wise if you're using a snub gun. The short barreled handgun is designed for up close and personal self defense - those of us who can routinely hit the X ring at ten yards or more with a short barreled revolver are really doing it only for bragging rights. Okay, it does give us self confidence to know that we CAN do it - but none of us will be mugged at thirty feet.

Shot placement is the key.....and if you must vary from the practical advice of "think center of mass" to headshots then remember the "Mosambique drill" - if you have one assailant it's 2 to the body, 1 to the head - but that varies quickly if you're confronted with 2 or more perps and you have 5 shots.

As for reloads - can someone please tell me when was the last time you heard about a good guy (not an LEO) in a gunfight having to reload?

***GRJ***

***GRJ***

I have carried a 642 for several years. It's only seen use away from the range one time. I was walking my too-friendly Siberian Husky around a lake (on a leash) and was approached by a guy with a couple of mixed Boxer/Pit Bulls (not on a leash). I stopped walking when they got within 40 yards and heeled my dog. I asked him to go around, but he just said "they'll be fine."

They weren't fine. About 30 yards out, they set upon my dog. I had my hand in my pocket and wrapped around the Airweight when they bolted, but still didn't get into position until they were on top of my dog. 3 shots, 2 hits. Two dead Boxer/Pit Bull mixes. Harsh words were exchanged and he wants compensation.

I call the cops. Turns out he's been arrested for dog-fighting a couple of times. They didn't arrest him then, but about two-months later they did, for the same charge.

I still carry that 642 sometimes, especially in the summer. I don't practice with it as much as I used to, but now that I live out in the country, I'll put it back into the rotation.

Well done, zzbruno! I'm never without my 642 and when I am dog walking it is incidents such as you described that keep me on high alert!

***GRJ***

This Critical Defense load may have been tested in either American Rifleman or Guns & Ammo.

I will look in my back issues, and if I can find an article, I'll get it to you.

I just took deliver of a 15 oz. version of the 642. My FFL guy also has a large reloading factory and sells at most of the large gun shows. When I signed of on this gun at his factory, he advised this load over all others for this gun. It has good power but less recoil to distract you if you are taking multiple shots. Believe me, just practicing with your light pistol with any +P - or sometimes even normal loads -is unpleasant. This goes for any self defense pistol shooting that cartridge and weighing in around the 16 oz mark. I solve the problem by practicing with my 942 which is of normal weight and in 9mm, but is otherwise identical to the 640 series.

The round has an 'anti-plugging' component stuffed in to its hollow point which keeps heavy clothing from plugging the hollow point and compromising its effectiveness.

I have an American Arms derringer in .357 magnum, which weighs more than twice what your revolver weighs. I shoot regula range .38's in it. If it were loaded with .357 magums, I question which end of it might be the more painful.

Really?

Not so sure I'd be so fervent in my proselytizing of the 10mm and some lightweight/high velocity specialty rounds as a panacea.

After all, once you start to learn of instances where 12ga 1 oz shotgun slugs, .308 rifle rounds, 25-28 torso hist by 9's or .45's, or even a centered hit by .357, .41 or .44 Magnum rounds didn't, "instantly stop" some attacker, or kill some innocent victim, even "higher energy" medium-bore handgun calibers like .357 Magnum, .357SIG or 10mm may not appear so "powerful" outside of paper ME/MV calculations.

It's all relative.

But hey, I can see the allure of hot-rodded, lightweight-for-caliber rounds. As a younger man and cop I once felt my .44 Magnum revolvers loaded with the hottest of the factory 180gr JHP's was the best thing going, due to sheer ME/MV (for caliber & bullet weight) and the informal "field testing" I'd done in the woods.

I no longer carry those .44's, though, and only take them out of the safe for occasional range sessions.

Sometimes it'll be because some younger instructor or pistol shooter will wonder about shooting a .44 Magnum, and I'll bring some mild heavyweight LSWC (think 250 @1000fps), and some standard 240gr factory Magnums, and sometimes some heavier 315gr handloads I still have remaining.

Other times it'll be because I like to remember the days when cops were known to carry .44's on and off-duty.

Then, sometimes it'll be because I simply feel like showing some of the younger 9/.40/.45 pistols shooters how a .44 Magnum DA revolver can be run through the same qual courses-of-fire, just as fast (or even faster), than most of them can run their low powered pistols.

I don't see any advantage in carrying them anymore, though, even though I'm living in less populated mountain area. The potential defensive needs I anticipate can realistically be handled by any of the good quality loadings available in 9, .40, .45ACP, or even my small .380ACP or .38 Spl. I'll still occasionally carry my SP101DAO loaded with Magnum rounds (being an older revolver guy), but my pair of M&P 340's typically see +P ammo.

Now, facing a determined attacker armed with a blade is often considered to present more of a mindset, skill and tactical problem than a "caliber" problem.

Anyway, the only time an attacker earnestly tried to gut me with a large wooden-scaled kitchen boning knife ... who was suspected by responding cops of being under the influence of the then-popular common street drug PCP ... I was neither a cop nor armed with a firearm.

The attacker missed his extended lunge and swing, putting himself seriously off balance for a moment. The video (in a store) showed him try to stab me, powerfully swinging at me ... and me suddenly getting away from the blow, disappearing just outside the camera view.

What it couldn't show was how I'd grabbed a couple objects to use as expedient weapons. The attacker seemed to hesitate, and then left, still acting weird.

At that time in my life I'd had about 10 years of experience in the martial arts, and I knew the best way not to get wounded by a knife was to get away from it. Distance was good. Unfortunately, I was severely limited in the direction & distance I could evade, due to the size and configuration of the area of the store where the attack occurred, without risking exposing my back to the oddly acting guy telling me that he was going to stab me on film.

Sometimes things just unfold in ways we'd neither expect nor wish.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I hav.e .a Magna ported 357 scandium J frame that I absolutely love. It is a lot of fun to shoot and as it is a Centennial Version it does require some skill and practice to be proficient with it.I taught police officers how to shoot at the academy for many years. I carried a handgun and sometimes a rifle or shotgun for many years and unfortunately had to use them on occasion. As much as I liked to play with the J frames they were never my primary weapon. we carried the Sig Sauer p220 in 45 caliber and never had an instance where it failed to stop. Admittedly, the officers were well trained and placed their bullets well. No I would not depend on a 38 special JFrame, even as a retired officer, for serious social Work I now carry a light weight 3 inch Para Ordnance 1911 either in a holster or securely in my pocket, believe it or not. The gun is small enough and light enough to almost go unnoticed, and I am confident of the ability to handle most any situation. that said, within reason, carrying something that you are comfortable and confident with is most important. Everyone may not like your choice but you are probably better off then carrying a gun you don't shoot well and have no confidence in. Aside from that, practice, practice, practice.

I carry a model 36 S/W with jacketed h.p off duty. I like the concealment it affords especially in the summertime.
As a man stopper well, I think it depends on shot placement of course,
however, many cops will probably agree it depends on the target
they all react differently some are stopped in their tracks while others
keep coming on there are several reasons why, drugs, determination and the list go's on.
One thing I agree with during a gunfight you will only be have as accurate as your last day at the range IMHO.

Semper Fidelis

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I BACK OUR BLUE

PBSO: 89-year-old Lake Park jeweler shoots armed robber | www.palmbeachpost.com

Uncertain of the ammo, but I'm certain the store owner felt he had shot the Terminator. This suspect was hit four times in the chest nearly point blank. Then was driven 20 miles from the scene and then rendered medical treatment. The suspect survived. Handguns in general are poor at instantaneous stops. Even in a few seconds left of life, a thug can return fire, stab you etc. This store owner was very fortunate he didn't get himself or someone else killed. I'm glad for the outcome.

The Sept Oct 2013 issue of American Handgunner had a well researched article by Greg Ellifritz about what cartridge had the most one shot stops. It all boiled down to the fact that no one wants to be shot twice. that happened from 47 to 72 % of the time. I found the article a great read.

Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post
"People HAVE been shot "clean through" the head with a .38 special with no significant damage...I know, I was there. NO< NO<NO
1) Coming from a family of Polish Marines I could almost believe that, but your not suggesting that they lived, or could still function??? I would need to see that before I could believe it. CT/MRI, Full Chart, Autopsy records!!"

I spent an afternoon talking with a VIST (Visually Impaired Services) Coordinator at the VA where I worked. His last sight on this earth was of a fire-fight in Viet Nam that was at close range -- enemy about 30 yards and less from his hole. He was hit with an AK round (which would have been the steel core ball of the era) in the head, from side to side, through and through. I saw the dimples where entrance/exit wounds had been.

He was knocked out and when he woke up, he'd been put in a pile of KIA soldiers at a field medical facility, and wasn't able to call out or respond in a way as to get anyone's attention. He was terrified that he would be either left to die or buried alive. Luckily, he was discovered, treated, and has had a very productive life in the decades since. His only lasting effect was that he is now blind.

Yes, he survived and prospered after a through-and-through, side to side head shot from a 7.62x39 at close range. Bullet weight ~123 gr, and velocity MUCH higher than the .38 Spl == probably ~3x that of the .38. Unfortunately, you won't be able to view his "CT/MRI or autopsy" records, etc. because CT/s and MRI's hadn't been invented then, and he won't be dying any time soon. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Anyone who thinks they have a total lock on what happens when living organisms get shot, simply hasn't shot enough living organisms. I've shot a squirrel through the head, side to side, through and through, just like this veteran was, with a 600 fps air rifle pellet at close range, and he was blinded but totally functional, turning in circles and looking around as though wondering "who turned out the lights?"
There can be a big difference between theory and calculations vs. cold, physical reality. Another quote from Platoon: "There's the way the world "should" be, and there's the way it IS." (as best I can recall.)

In grad school, we were shown newspaper clippings and other information about a patient with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder who threatened a family member that he was going to shoot himself in the head with a .22 pistol. The family member, exasperated from many years of dealing with his life-long condition, said words to the effect of, "Be my guest!" He then did shoot himself through the head, and seems to have hit the area that was responsible for his OCD, as after he got out of the hospital, his OCD was reduced in severity by about 90%. He also had very little damage, otherwise.

There are many such stories, although I suspect you will have to find the "MRI/CTs, full charts and autopsies" on your own...

John

You should have read his whole post- I removed a great deal to save space. You can be shot through the back of the head or hit by a piece of shrapnel and end up blind as the Vietnam Vet, you can also put a small projectile through the frontal cortex and cause seizures, affect memory, change various conditions such as OCD. In his original post the through and through had NO significant damage, I would consider blindness significant. You are absolutely correct that sometimes the "impossible" seems to happen, but I will guarantee you that if you put a 175 gr SMKOT through a skull and completely destroy the medulla the result will always be the same-- No twitch. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE