I teach CCW (carry concealed weapon) classes. It is my goal in these classes to help people learn the law and to shoot better in defensive situations. The law in CA doesn't require a shooting component to get a CCW license. However, my local sheriff likes to see it included in the class. To qualify for the shooting portion, a student must shoot 20 shots. They must all be within the silhouette of a B-27E target like this one:

This target is enormous at 2' wide by 3' tall.

The course of fire is:

• 4 shots from 3 yards
• 6 shots from 5 yards
• 6 shots from 7 yards
• 4 shots from 10 yards

All shots are fired with the shooters choice of grip and stance and start from the ready position (gun loaded, but not in holster). They are all untimed so, there is no need to hurry.

The goal here is to see that the students can handle their guns safely and at least get their bullets to go in the general direction of the target. I thought this would be a very easy test. After instructing many students, I can see that this is more difficult than I thought.

Because I thought it was easy, I had never actually shot the full course. I'm a huge believer that an instructor doesn't need to be the best, but should at least be able to do what he's asking the students to do. So, today I shot the test. Here is my result:

Notice that all the shots are in the orange. There is actually a tiny bit of orange between the right line and the right most hole. So, none of my shots are even touching the line. (It was sunny, but the wind was blowing about 5-10MPH from my back.)

So, I challenge everyone here to run the same course of fire. There is a lot of talk about, "I shoot well enough to defend myself." OK, I'm calling you out. Run this course of fire and post your pics here. Can you keep all 20 shots in the orange? I don't think you can! That's right, I said it, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT!!!

Here are the rules:

• Any target may be used. To say you did as well as I did, all your shots must be within a 2"x3" oval. That's the size of the B-27E bullseye. So, either use a B-27E (regular B-27 would be fine) or provide proof of the size of your group.
• The gun must be a gun used for self/home-defense.
• The gun must be used in the same fashion it would be used for defense. So, if it is a DA/SA, the first shot at each yardage must be shot DA first and then SA for the rest. If it's a revolver it must be shot DA for every shot.
• The course of fire is as above.
• All shots are untimed.

This is done on your honor. If you say you did it, I'll believe you, but you must post a picture of your target. Let's keep this in the spirit of the forum. While I'm sure you can use this gun to defend yourself...

...it doesn't fit the spirit of the competition.

I used this one:


Well there it is.

I know you can't beat me, but can you even come close? PROVE IT!!! (There might be a prize involved. )

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Freedom isn't free.

Rumor has it that it may break the freezing mark here in PA for the 1st time since August. If it gets near 50 anytime soon, I'll play.
I have pistols that would fit the CCW/HD bill that I might be able to do it with, but I have my doubts about my 3914. Then again, the challenge isn't to win, but to learn.

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Because of the metric system?

It's too cold to go to the range right now but I've done this;

With this;

From about this far away;

The head shots were done from the low ready position, bringing the gun up and shooting quickly. I also dumped one cylinder quickly in the red.
I can't help but wonder how I'd do if my hands worked right.

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Keep on Chooglin'

If this is a gun you use for defense, let's erase those doubts. Give it a shot (pun intended). Who knows, you just might do it.

Absolutely correct! You sir, understand.

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Freedom isn't free.

You get extra points for using a snub.

I understand why instructors in CPL classes either choose not to, or aren't allowed to have clients draw from a concealed holster during cpl classes....But in my opinion not doing so practically excludes any "training" element from this "qualification" class.

Nice shooting Snubby!

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Freedom isn't free.

Love it. Have been very jealous of the internet matches in one of the other sub forums. Great idea Rastoff.

We are in the record books for cold and snowfall depth at this point but by god I will find a way to do this!

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~ From the Land of Lobstah ~

I like this exercise. I think I'm going to include this in my next range session. If I do I'll update with a picture.

In the meantime, I shot the following group at my last range session back in January. It was my 1st 5 shots of the day (and the 1st 5 shots in a long time...haven't been able to get to the range in quite some time, much longer than I'd care to admit).



I shot it using my 642 with 132gr PMC FMJ at ~10 yards, 2-handed, standing, no support. Carefully aimed each shot. Also, the gun is stock except for Spegel boot grips (i.e., no trigger work). It's the gun in my avatar.

The target is a BT-5 (my favorite, FYI) and the white rectangle is a 3"x5" adhesive mailing label.

Not great, but I don't think it's too bad, either. There's always room for improvement.

In a defensive situation...those 5 would get the job done!

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Stay protected my friends.

Thanks.

I don't care how well you shoot unless you're shooting at me. When you're 63 with two bad knees that will barely hold you up, hands that shake, and eyes that will never focus again, then we'll have a level playing field.

But I can still pass your test.

I'll give it a try this next week using my EDC...a Glock gen 3 mod 22. I have my doubts about how I'll do until after my cataract surgery next month...

BTW...since you said self-home defense, someone who doesn't carry but has a SD/HD gun just to stay at home, someone COULD meet your standards with a red dot equipped AR ya know...

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

OK, I'll play. Only difference is...this is from 7 yds and 10 yds (25 rounds each). The "fliers" are at 10 yd's.

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Stay protected my friends.

Well, yeah, I guess an AR with a 4x ACOG would technically meet the criteria. Of course it would violate the essence of the OP.

But hey, if you feel you need a rifle to best what I can do with a pistol, then OK.

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Freedom isn't free.

LOL...I see what yer doin'...

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

Nice shooting and the right gun too!

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Freedom isn't free.

You guys ever consider a pistol from the 2nd half of the previous century???

Actually, that was one of the pistols I was referring to in my previous post.

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Because of the metric system?

while cleaning the suv and front walk, 5 deg. & snowing wed., the wind was right and i could hear someone using the range. put a smile on my face, doesn't take much w/ cabin fever. -6 the other night and i stood outside looking at the stars, a thought- spring is coming. cleaned out the range bag. cut some patches. being able to go to the range during the week is great, few shooters. now i just have to search how to post pictures.

I take your challenge and I plan to beat you!
I may have to enter a few times.

David

When it warms up a bit, I give it a shot. It'll be interesting to see my results.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I can help with posting pics. There are a couple of explanations on the forum, like this one: Posting pictures

Or you can email them to me at [email protected] and I'll post them for you.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'll give it a go at my next range trip.
I typically use the Birchwood Casey 6" Shoot-N-See.

Rastoff- I spent a couple years full time teaching various federal LEO agencies. About 85% were new recruits, and 15% advanced instruction.

What surprised me was that a large number of the "advanced" students could not do what you have posted.

I understand the need for speed, cover, and "combat accuracy", but it all begins with basics - proper grip, sight alignment, and trigger control.

Good shooting with that old fashioned 1911, by the way...

Larry

I love it! Nice shooting there RV4driver.

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Freedom isn't free.

OK, ok, are you gonna play or not?

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Freedom isn't free.

This group was shot, per the challenge, with my Browning High Power.

Next range trip I'll shoot it with my EDC (Shield 9mm)...prepare to be beaten!

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Stay protected my friends.

Not bad brother. I loves me some Hi-Power. The last progeny of JMB himself. It's a wonderful gun. I wonder how it would have turned out had he lived a little longer. Sometimes my wife will let me shoot hers.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'll post mine next weekend. I did the 3 and 5 yard shots yesterday, and I'm going to do the 7 yard Saturday afternoon and the 10 yard Sunday morning. Thought I'd get yelled at for posting a picture of the target halfway through . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Oooh, you're cheating. The idea is to do them all at the same time. Meh, I don't care. It's hard enough just to get people to do it at all.

Go ahead, post the pic of the target you've got so far. I won't yell at you.

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Freedom isn't free.

All shots are fired with the shooters choice of grip and stance and start from the ready position (gun loaded, but not in holster). They are all untimed so, there is no need to hurry.

So what rule are you changing next?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Even though I'm sure Muss Muggins KNOWS what you meant by "they are all untimed", technically he's got you!

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Stay protected my friends.

Hey, just like I said with the rifle, if that's what it takes to beat me....

At least he's shooting. How many are out there that won't even try?

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Freedom isn't free.

Sweet! I'll try to do it tomorrow after work.

I don't have easy access to a range due to my work schedule, but I'll post the description of my last LEOSA qual with my G17 (shortened to G19 butt size and better sights):

At 3 yards, draw and file 4 shots, 2 body, 2 head, 7 seconds.
At 5 yards, draw and fire 3 shots, strong hand only, 5 seconds.
At 5 yards, 3 rounds, support hand only, 7 seconds including switching hands.
At 7 yards, from the ready, 5 rounds, 9 seconds.
At 10 yards, from the ready, 5 rounds, 12 seconds.
At 15 yards, from the ready, 5 rounds, 12 seconds.

25 rounds total, 250 points, 247/250. I think those time limits are unduly generous and try to push myself to as much faster as I can.

Did not do as well with 45ACP revolver, still got 213 with at least 1 dropped shot (0). I don't shoot revolvers much and should do more training with them. A couple years ago I had the same score with .41 loaded with Gold Dot JHP which made me more than a few enemies on the indoor range.

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NHI, 10-8.

I will never understand a concealed carry qualifying score being attained while firing "from the ready . . . "

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

A police officer that doesn't have access to a range? That's just wrong on so many levels.

Thanks for posting the qualification test. I'd just like to see guys do the one in the OP first. Then we can move on to other tests.

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Freedom isn't free.

Man! I sure expected alot more people on this forum to participate. Guess we have more "talkers", than "shooters", huh?

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Stay protected my friends.

Give some of us some time.
I'd like to become proficient. This challenge seems a way to begin.

Considering the challenge was only posted last Friday, this ain't such a bad turnout... Especially with this weekend's weather.

I was able to hit the range this morning to do the challenge. I fired it cold, no warm-up or practice runs.

I used my 642 (stock except for Spegel boot grips), firing Remington UMC Leadless 125gr FNEB.

The gun:



4 rounds @ 3 yards
6 rounds @ 5 yards
6 rounds @ 7 yards
4 rounds @ 10 yards



I'm not sure if the target's dimensions match the B27, so I took a couple more photos with a tape measure for reference:





And for the defense-minded, I did three 5-shot strings, rapid-fire, 1-handed, at 3 yards, using Speer SB-GDHP. The last 5-shot string was fired after drawing from concealment.



I used my Side Guard Quick Clip holster:



Not exactly award-winning marksmanship, but I think it would suffice.

Also noticed my groups concentrating to the left. I'll have to look into that.

I just found this thread, and will do it next week when I go to the range. In fact I'll do it with three different guns. But I will do it all at 7 and 10 yards. I don't like to shoot at the range at the 3 yard mark. I always laugh at the girls and guys doing that. Since we can't "draw" from the holster at the indoor range(their rule) trying to simulate self defense shooting at 3 yards is useless.

I'll use my smith and wesson M&P 40c which is one EDC. I'll use my ruger SP101 which is the other I use. And either my Model 15 or just for giggles I'll get out my Hi Pointe .40 S&W and shoot it.

New Shield 9mm, M&P FS 9mm with Apex FSS, GI 1911 45acp stock
Looks like best chance is with the 1911.

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OK, OK that's what I wish it looked like.

I shot 4 at 3yds, 6 at 5 yds, 6 at 7 yds and the remainder of the 2 magazine(14 rnds) at 10.
All the flyers on the right were at 5 and 7 yds
This is the real thing:

*
Retired. I would not be doing a LEOSA qual if I weren't; I'd still be doing the duty qual. This is the BUG/Covert course I think they call it.

From the ready, yeah, that's imperfect and your concerns are reasonable, but i think the underlying assumption is that especially for a BUG course, that at distance one would have drawn. I am not sure that's a valid assumption.

Yes, I do it cold.

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NHI, 10-8.

I made it to the range this morning and ran the challenge.
The only pistol used today was my 9mm Shield (my carry pistol).

The 1st target was shot 'cold' (no Warm Up).
The Orange center on that target is 2" in Diameter.

The 2nd pic of three 6" 'Shoot-N-C' targets are as followed:
Left Target was @ 21', All shots were Controlled Pairs. My Followup shots seem to be going Low-Left.
Center Target was a repeat of the Challenge.
Right Target was at 30', mostly single shots, 1sec-2sec intervals.
For reference, on the 6" Shoot-N-C targets, the distance from one number 9 to the other number 9, is 2" across.

If I can do this with a Little ol' Shield, you guys with the bigger artillery should be able to handle this challenge.

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Looks pretty good to me Phil...
When ya gonna do the 3Yd, 5Yd and 10Yd parts?
(Ducking for cover...)

I has been too cold and nasty here to get out and play. But, I found this B34 REV target that I shot at a local indoor shoot in 2008. S&W m60 , 10 shots, 10 yds., standing, two hands, double action.
The 10 ring measures 2"x 3".
I know the one shot got a bit wide. But I'm old and can't see as good as I use to. Does that count ?

If it ever warms up here. I'll get out and play the game.

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I just got home from work and this was the first thread I looked at. I'm very excited to see that at least a few are trying it.

For the record, I shot my target "cold" too. This is how it is normally done at the class. I'm not opposed to allowing a warm-up, but I haven't ever done that and no one has asked to. So, to be as accurate a representation of what happens in my class as I could, my target was the first 20 shots I took that day.

I'm impressed with the targets I've seen so far. This is good shooting, all of you. Yes, all of those hits will stop the bad guy.

Phil, I've shot an LCP before. I'm pretty sure I couldn't keep in on the paper at 7 yards. He's right, that gun has a ridiculous trigger and little bumps on the slide that are Ruger's excuse for sights. To get a group like that with that gun is very good shooting indeed. I'd like to see what you could do with a different gun and actually shooting the whole course of fire.

Protected One,
I'm not surprised at the number of participants. The weather over in the East is really horrible so, that's a factor. Also, most aren't used to this style of shooting. This is the self-defense forum after all. And, we all have lives beyond this forum. It will take a little while for some of us to filter our way to the range.


While there has been some good shooting posted, no one has beat me yet!

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Freedom isn't free.

I'm sure you're right about the weather (although an attack could occur in cold weather too).

It doesn't take much prodding to get me out to the range - regardless to weather. And a "challenge" is MORE than sufficient!

Coming soon: The target that beats Rastoffs

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Stay protected my friends.