opinion on escalation

[Mexistrat]

A little while back I was considering a private party sale of a gun I have. I eventually decided to keep it, but I interacted online with quite a few people first. The discussion with one person veered into the age old topic of carrying with a round chambered vs. not. I only ever carry a revolver, so thus far it has not been an issue for me, except as a matter of endless theorizing and debate. Anyway, this particular person alluded to being an LEO (made mentions of being "off-duty" vs. "on", "CC" vs. "Duty" weapon). His position was that when "off-duty" he carried without one in the chamber. Reason being that during a confrontation, racking the slide put him in a "combat state of mind" and would intimidate the other party into backing down. He also mentioned having lasers on his CC handguns, and that the intimidation factor of training a laser dot on the offending party would serve the same purpose.

I was quite shocked to be honest that someone who alluded to being a police officer had this mentality. I wrote back that in my opinion, racking the slide during a confrontation would be escalation rather than the opposite, as would putting a laser dot on someone's shirt. To me, it seems irresponsible, and tantamount to an avoidable shooting. I never heard from him again.

Is this something that LEOs are taught? I understand there are differences in the rules of engagement for cops and armed citizens, but he was talking about "off-duty" CC. I also understand there is a big difference between a Confrontation, and an Attack. This person was talking about confrontation.

[Decker]

I have known a number of police over the years.
Some of them would occasionally drop by and shoot the breeze about all sorts of things, and I learned a lot about how they view their jobs, and even some fun tactical stuff they would talk about.

The kind of nonsense that guy told you is nonsense.
He was not a trained and experienced police officer. No way.

[LoboGunLeather]

I retired after 24 years as a LEO, including nearly 7 years as a police chief. All I can tell you is that cops come in all sizes, shapes, attitudes, and mental states. Some are "gun guys", many are not. Some are laid back, relaxed folks that can be a pleasure to be around. Some are opinionated, aggressive, or otherwise difficult to be associated with. Some make it through a career while others can't hold a job for any length of time.

Attempts to generalize anything about cops are about like attempts to generalize about any other occupation, profession, or group.

[Mexistrat]

Originally Posted by Decker

The kind of nonsense that guy told you is nonsense.
He was not a trained and experienced police officer. No way.

I hope this is true.

[Muss Muggins]

I wonder which muscle memory he defaults to under stress. Will he rack the slide on his duty weapon and drop one on the deck, or will he not rack his CCW weapon and hear a very loud "click?"

[Mexistrat]

Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather

Attempts to generalize anything about cops are about like attempts to generalize about any other occupation, profession, or group.

Absolutely. I've known a few cops myself. Most of them were super nice. Only one I can think of was a jerk. I was just wondering about training for off-duty carry, but I suppose that varies a lot by department.

[Mexistrat]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I wonder which muscle memory he defaults to under stress. Will he rack the slide on his duty weapon and drop one on the deck, or will he not rack his CCW weapon and hear a very loud "click?"

Oh wow, yeah. Being a non-autoloader guy, I never even considered this. You're not likely to remember at the moment of truth if you carry different conditions at different times.

[Arik]

He is gecko45!

For an hour of entertainment Google "gecko45".

[roscoepc]

Originally Posted by Arik

He is gecko45!

For an hour of entertainment Google "gecko45".

Holy Bovine Excrement Batman!!!!!!! I gotta get a case of beer and peruse this some more tonight!!!!

[Arik]

Originally Posted by roscoepc

Holy Bovine Excrement Batman!!!!!!! I gotta get a case of beer and peruse this some more tonight!!!!

Unfortunately this was so long ago (2001 or so) that most of the forums no longer have those posts or data. It is saved in archives so you can still find it but the original had more content

[roscoepc]

Just what little I read was rather,,,, Informative!!!!!!

[wialco]

I captained a bullseye pistol team for a number of years and had four LEOs that shot with us. I also shot PPC with them on a regular basis. These men were and are the salt of the earth as were the vast majority of the many others I interacted with. They reminded us continuously that you will revert to your training under stress. I can't imagine carrying differently on duty and off. Too easy to come unglued under duress.

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by Mexistrat

His position was that when "off-duty" he carried without one in the chamber. Reason being that during a confrontation, racking the slide put him in a "combat state of mind"

I wonder what "state of mind" being disarmed and killed while trying to chamber a round would put him in...

[16thVACav]

If the cartridge that should have been in the chamber was being carried in his shirt pocket, I think I know who this was.

[RalphMP9FS]

Originally Posted by Mexistrat

A little while back I was considering a private party sale of a gun I have. I eventually decided to keep it, but I interacted online with quite a few people first. The discussion with one person veered into the age old topic of carrying with a round chambered vs. not. I only ever carry a revolver, so thus far it has not been an issue for me, except as a matter of endless theorizing and debate. Anyway, this particular person alluded to being an LEO (made mentions of being "off-duty" vs. "on", "CC" vs. "Duty" weapon). His position was that when "off-duty" he carried without one in the chamber. Reason being that during a confrontation, racking the slide put him in a "combat state of mind" and would intimidate the other party into backing down. He also mentioned having lasers on his CC handguns, and that the intimidation factor of training a laser dot on the offending party would serve the same purpose.

I was quite shocked to be honest that someone who alluded to being a police officer had this mentality. I wrote back that in my opinion, racking the slide during a confrontation would be escalation rather than the opposite, as would putting a laser dot on someone's shirt. To me, it seems irresponsible, and tantamount to an avoidable shooting. I never heard from him again.

Is this something that LEOs are taught? I understand there are differences in the rules of engagement for cops and armed citizens, but he was talking about "off-duty" CC. I also understand there is a big difference between a Confrontation, and an Attack. This person was talking about confrontation.

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.

[BigBill]

I carried my first 1911 not chambered. After thinking about it I chambered it, cocked and locked.

I came to the conclusion to treat every gun as if it was loaded. Safety first.

Every ccw gun is loaded. Ready to rock. It's no wait a minute while I load this. Making a split second shot could save lives as well as your own. You have milliseconds to put together what's happening and your reaction.

I don't look forward to the day something happens. But are u ready?

Ok do you carry loaded or not?

Barney Fife? Lol

Now since we're on this subject how about the family holiday gatherings do u carry?
Is it loaded?

Once I committed to ccw carry it's like my wallet it's with me loaded 23 1/2 /7 365 days a year. There is no leaving it at home or carry it unloaded. Are u committed to ccw loaded carry? There is no part-time carry. Our shift is 23 1/2 hours a day. I don't take it in the shower.

When u relax at home is it with u? Or near u?
Once you pack it's like nothing new u just automatically grab it.

Either run with the big dogs or stay on the porch?

[Old cop]

I was a cop for 30 years, retired in upper management and had to use my gun to defend myself more than once. From what was said about this character he sounds very much like a wanna-be cop. I have serious doubts that he is a real LEO just from the macho nonsense he has handing you. Everything he said goes against all the training and experience we gain over time.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.

That's what you assume but it doesn't always play out that way and I don't think you want to see what happens if it doesn't go according to plan. Even unarmed bad guys sometimes fight armed cops and win but no one can know ahead of time who will and who wont.

You rarely see them coming because bad guys wait till you're not paying attention or just don't see them. They don't announce their intentions from across the street.

[murphydog]

I suspect the person who wrote the comments is thinking about what might intimidate him (her?) with being attacked, kind of like the "loading the pump shotgun with a night break-in" story. One would think, however, that simply showing a gun would be enough to deter an attack.

This in turn reminds me of the story of how the DAO revolver came into widespread use - by accidental discharges after cocking them to show you were serious about using it.

[texmex]

In 41 years of law enforcement, I have known only one officer that did not carry a round in the chamber. He had been in the South Vietnamese Army and said they taught him to never carry a round chambered and there was no way we were going to convince him otherwise. Ironically, he carried a Sig 228 9mm DA/SA.

I had better luck convincing older guys back in the 1970s that it was okay to carry one under the hammer on a modern S&W or Colt DA revolver. We usually had to take them to the range, pull the hammer back on a fully loaded revolver, then tap the trigger with something until the hammer fell. When they saw for themselves that there was no likely way for the firing pin to strike the primer unless the trigger was held to the rear, they learned to carry all five or six chambers loaded.

Our hard headed boss in 1981 had to have an accidental discharge before he believed what we had been telling him about carrying his Combat Commander on half-cock. The gun fell out of his waist band and hit the floorboard of his private plane. The 230 gr. Hardball went into the instrument panel of his Piper Commanche. When he got back home, he did not get any gear down/locked lights. He did a low flyby and I told him they appeared to be fully extended so they were probably locked. He landed and the gear stayed down. He carried cocked and locked from then on. Even he could not see carrying with an empty chamber. Things happen too fast to be screwing around loading your gun not to mention your off hand may be busy holding the assailant off while drawing your weapon.

Just because the military does not trust their people to carry a loaded weapon (or even have a weapon most of the time) does not mean that is correct. They are more worried about ADs than they are about the enemy. Fort Hood X2 should have taught them a lesson but the recruiting office attack shows they are extremely slow learners.

[ISCS Yoda]

There is such a thing as the combat mindset. If you're carrying a gun you're supposed to have it. The mindset should include your basic firearms training, all of your practiced skills, and your choice of whether you will use your weapon or not. You don't put yourself into the combat mindset by racking your slide. All you do is make it likely that you'll have an accidental discharge.

Even a cocked and locked 1911 can be drawn and pointed without immediately flicking off the safety. It takes experience but nobody should carry a 1911 unless they know what they are doing with it.

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA.

For average American gun folks, it's a VERY bad practice. Whomever told that story to the OP needs some serious instruction into lethal force and use of weapons.

[Arik]

The Israelis do it for a different reason and it should not be implemented for civilians in the US.

[Mexistrat]

Great discussion, and lots of good points. I absolutely don't think that drawing means you have to be commited to shooting. I do think that you should be ready though. The reason I don't carry a semi-auto other than the fact that I don't own one is that I am not trained in their use. When I do get the 1911 I've always wanted, I won't carry it until I've taken at least one tactical handgun course with it, and trained some more. I should actually train with my revolver beyond just going to the range, and this discussion has reminded me of that.

I am glad to know that the general consensus seems to be that this guy is a joker, and likely not a cop (or at least not a very smart one).

[roscoepc]

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.

Respectfully I have to disagree with your belief... If there's a situation that warrants pulling, racking, and pointing a gun at a person, you're in a life or death situation. That's really the only time a weapon should be used in self defense anyway, Right??? A pistol is NOT used to threaten or intimidate!!!! It's used for Center Mass......

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Arik

He is gecko45!

For an hour of entertainment Google "gecko45".

I think I posted a link to the complete original threads from Glock Talk somewhere here

[gray wolf]

They reminded us continuously that you will revert to your training under stress. I can't imagine carrying differently on duty and off.

You will revert back to the level of training you have mastered.
People sell themselves short if they think they will rise to the occasion.

There is such a thing as the combat mindset. If you're carrying a gun you're supposed to have it. The mindset should include your basic firearms training, all of your practiced skills, and your choice of whether you will use your weapon or not. You don't put yourself into the combat mindset by racking your slide. All you do is make it likely that you'll have an accidental discharge.

Even a cocked and locked 1911 can be drawn and pointed without immediately flicking off the safety. It takes experience but nobody should carry a 1911 unless they know what they are doing with it.

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA.

For average American gun folks, it's a VERY bad practice. Whomever told that story to the OP needs some serious instruction into lethal force and use of weapons.

I couldn't agree more with the above statement.

As for the 1911 ? folks that carry with an empty chamber will say many things to defend what they do.
When the truth is they are just insecure about doing it.
For them I recommend: get over it or get a different side arm,
Of course they could acquire a full understanding of how a 1911 works,
at least take note the thumb safety blocks the sear AND the hammer.
The grip safety and the trigger finger add to the mix.

Rack a slide and you just told me where you are and where to shoot.
Turn on a laser and while you are trying to find me with it I can put a few in your center mass.

The best thing to do with people that give that kind of info as in the OP
is to get away from them.
They have other problems way beyond cocked and locked or one in the pipe.
If you let them they will grind you into the ground with there conveluted thinking.

[Darkhawk]

If you carry, Concealed or Open,Carry Condition One, Locked and Cocked

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

The ONLY people who should carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round in the chamber are Israelis - because that's how they're trained. All IDF personnel, from the new recruits to the counter-terrorism elites, are trained to rack their slides and commence shooting - this might not be the best plan in downtown Podunk USA but those folks are so well trained it wouldn't offend me to see it in practice in an armed confrontation in Podunk USA .

This ^was true at one time it is not true now,

When the Israeli Defense Force was originally formed back in the 40s, they were armed with whatever weapons they, as a nation, could quickly acquire. This meant that their pistols were a mish-mash of different designs. Some single action, some double action, some with safeties, and some without. Many were not drop safe. Many did not have holsters.

They needed one simple method to train a large number of people, many of them inexperienced in the use of arms, regardless of what weapon they had. The result was to carry with the chamber empty and rack on the draw. This method:

1) works regardless of the gun's design (SA, DA, safety, no safety)
2) prevents a non-drop-safe gun from going off if dropped (a real possibility when you just stick it in your waistband because you don't have a holster)
3) avoids the possibility of someone not accustomed to a safety sticking a loaded, cocked, and unlocked single action into their waistband

It is important to note that this method IS A COMPROMISE.

There is no tactical advantage to be gained from carrying this way. In fact there is a tactical disadvantage, because it requires both hands. With a modern firearm, there is no safety advantage to be gained from carrying chamber empty, either. (One possible exception to this is someone trying to shoot you with your own gun, but if you are planning your carry method based on someone stealing your concealed gun from you before you can react, perhaps you should reconsider carrying a gun.)

If you need to use a gun in self defense, you're already behind the curve because:
A) You didn't see the situation coming in time to avoid it.
B) You weren't able to find and take an escape from the situation once it started.
C) You weren't able to control or de-escalate the situation before a gun became your only option.
D) You need a gun RIGHT NOW.
E) Your gun is still in its holster (because you don't draw before you need it, right?)

Why put yourself at a further disadvantage by having that holstered gun unloaded as well?

You are not a member of the IDF. You are not mandated to carry your gun in a less-than-optimal manner. Why would you choose to handicap yourself this way? Why would you carry in a manner that may require more hands than you'll have available? That takes more time to deploy? That precludes the ability to fire from retention? That requires putting the gun out there in a place that's bad for retention?

The Israelis don't carry chamber empty because it's tacti-cool. It was a compromise that gained a bit of needed safety at the cost of tactical advantage. Today, now that they have standardized, modern pistols, many Israelis (like SWAT and Special Forces units) do carry with a loaded chamber.


Just carry with one in the pipe, already.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hearsi a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.

Yeah........ No.

If I pull my weapon shots fired or not I'm going to have to justify my actions to someone. I'm going to have to articulate specifically what the bad guy did that convinced me that my life was in imminent danger.

What you are describing would be a crime in Colorado unless you could justify that your life was in imminent danger and if your life was in imminent danger you wouldn't have time to chamber a round.

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hearsi a racking semiautomatic.

Unless of course the bad guy sees and hears you have a feed jam at the worstpossible moment

[wingriderz]

Originally Posted by 16thVACav

If the cartridge that should have been in the chamber was being carried in his shirt pocket, I think I know who this was.

Indeed. R I P. Barny.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic . . .

This is an urban legend on par with the Neimann Marcus cookie recipe. Most confrontations don't start with a showdown in the middle of the street akin to The Quick and the Dead. You aren't afforded that four or five seconds to assume a stance, draw, rack, and assume a modified Weaver stance. If you don't believe me, I don't care. You roll your way, I'll roll mine.

[RalphMP9FS]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

This is an urban legend on par with the Neimann Marcus cookie recipe. Most confrontations don't start with a showdown in the middle of the street akin to The Quick and the Dead. You aren't afforded that four or five seconds to assume a stance, draw, rack, and assume a modified Weaver stance. If you don't believe me, I don't care. You roll your way, I'll roll mine.

Thanks, that was the typical response I thought I would get. If the bad guy has planned his attack and executes it within a couple of seconds, your defensive plan will fail. The odds are much greater that you will confronted with bodily harm during a road rage incident or during a domestic dispute, which is 100 times more likely to occur than a planned armed assault. I can't teach common sense, nor will I try to.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

The odds are much greater that you will confronted with bodily harm during a road rage incident

I can't picture a road rage incident where you have time to do all that where you would also be justified in doing all that

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

or during a domestic dispute, which is 100 times more likely to occur than a planned armed assault.

Why are you involving yourself in someone else's DV incident?

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

I can't teach common sense, nor will I try to.

But I'm sure a guy with one CHP class and 6 or so months experience carrying a gun has plenty to teach a professional cop with YEARS of experience (Muss not me)

ETA

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

Ijust finished my CCW class two weeks ago here in Illinois. Inadvertently exposing your firearm is not illegal and not considered brandishing. Also, if you are cited for any gun carrying violations, you are fined $150 for each violation and can have your license revoked, only after the third violation.

posted on 12/09/2014

[Arik]

I guess,since cops rarely get attacked out of nowhere they should just carry without eve a mag in the gun. Chances of them getting mugged or beat up randomly are slim to none. Most often they get a call to show up. Plenty of time there to load

[Arik]

Plenty of time to scare the guy here
https://youtu.be/oWcPulKK07w

[Arik]

Also what do other people's domestic problems have to do with me. And road rage incidents is the last place you want to have an unloaded gun. Not only are you in an uncomfortable position to get to the gun easily but it's also not loaded. One more thing to think about. .....you may not always have the use of both hands. If you find yourself in a fight and using one hand to hold off the attacker who's going to chamber your gun?

Here's a good video on how hard it is to get your gun out let alone chamber it.

https://youtu.be/J_KJ1R2PCMM

[BigBill]

I was ccw a 6" python in a shoulder holster. I lost it one time. A drug user next door told me I was lucky my truck had a alarm system in it and he couldn't make any money on me. I drew the python and told him if I ever caught him or anyone else in my truck ripping me off I'd shove this up your butt and pull the trigger. His eyes were big as silver dollars. After that if he was outside when I walked out of the house he went in his house. He avoided me for a year. This clown grew up with my three brothers who were punch first ask questions later they were tough if u crossed them. He should of known better to mess with me. My brothers taught me. This was 35 years ago.

My point is yes there was six rounds in the cylinder.

[old bear]

I'll start by saying the today's L/E's received much better training than those of us who started the job in the 1970's.

But remember that now as then to many cops firearms are just one more tool then carry to do the job. So many of today's L/E's are not firearm experts.

TO those of you who are currently on the Job, please understand that the above is not a shot. You are doing a job that I'm not sure I would want to have to do in the current way society treats each other and you.

[g8rb8]

opinion on escalation

His position was that when "off-duty" he carried without one in the chamber. Reason being that during a confrontation, racking the slide put him in a "combat state of mind" and would intimidate the other party into backing down.

There's bad escalation and good escalation.

In general I'd say the situation presented in this example is bad escalation.

On the other hand I like escalating a beer from the table top to my mouth. That's an example of good escalation.

[BigBill]

I feel bad and really respect the LEO's of today. It's bad in some areas. It's escalating out of control. Even with some of the strictest gun laws in the country the murder rate is up. The people in Newtown should be proud of what they done.

[texmex]

Originally Posted by Arik

I guess,since cops rarely get attacked out of nowhere they should just carry without eve a mag in the gun. Chances of them getting mugged or beat up randomly are slim to none. Most often they get a call to show up. Plenty of time there to load

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, most law enforcement shootings are at close range with little or no warning. There are times when I am responding to an incident where there is a strong possibility that there may be armed resistance. Then I deploy my rifle. Eating pizza? Walking out of the barracks? Checking out an abandoned car? All low threat scenarios yet officers were murdered. Officers have to be ready for instant response to surprise attack at all times.


2014: A Terrible Year for Ambushes
On January 30th, Sergeant Cory Wride of the Utah County (Utah) Sheriff's Office was shot and killed from ambush while checking on what he believed was an abandoned vehicle. He is survived by his wife and five children.

On March 19th, Deputy Ricky Del Fiorentino of the Mendocino County (Calif.) Sheriff's Office was shot and killed from ambush while searching for a subject who had abducted two people earlier in the day.

On May 1st, Sergeant Patrick Scott Johnson and Trooper Gabriel Rich — both of the Alaska State Troopers — were shot and killed by ambush while investigating reports that a person had brandished a firearm in the village of Tanana several days earlier. Rich is survived by his two sons, fiancé, and parents. Johnson is survived by his wife, three daughters, parents, and siblings.

On May 30th, Officer Brian Jones of the Norfolk (Va.) Police Department was shot and killed from ambush while investigating the killing of a 17-year-old boy earlier that day. Officer Jones was a U.S. Navy veteran and is survived by his wife and three young children.

On June 8th, Officers Igor Soldo and Alyn Beck — both of the Las Vegas (Nev.) Metropolitan Police Department — were shot and killed from ambush execution style without warning while eating lunch at a pizzeria.

On July 6th, Patrolman Jeffrey Brady Westerfield of the Gary (Ind.) Police Department was shot and killed from ambush as he sat in his patrol car. The exact circumstances of his death are unknown, although it’s notable that he had responded to the same area on a call earlier in the night. Westerfield is survived by his four daughters and fiancée.

On July 13th, Detective Melvin Santiago of the Jersey City (N.J.) Police Department was shot and killed from ambush as he and his partner responded to a robbery call. Santiago and his partner had just pulled into the parking lot as the gunman exited the building and opened fire on them without warning. Santiago is survived by his mother and stepfather.

On September 7th, Patrolman Nickolaus Schultz of the Merrillville (Ind.) Police Department succumbed to gunshot wounds sustained two days earlier when he was shot and killed from ambush. The was wearing body armor but decided to commit suicide after murdering Patrolman Schultz.

On September 12th, Corporal Bryon Keith Dickson, II — of the Pennsylvania State Police — was shot and killed from ambush as he emerged from the front door of the barracks where he worked. Dickson was a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and is survived by his wife and two sons.

On November 22nd, Deputy Sheriff Christopher Smith of the Leon County (Fla.) Sheriff's Office was shot from ambush as he responded to a house fire. It is believed that the assailant intentionally set the fire with the intention to kill responders. Smith is survived by his wife and children.

On December 20th, Officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos — both of the New York City Police Department — were shot and killed from ambush when a subject walked up to their patrol car and opened fire with a handgun, striking them both in the head and upper body multiple times. Ramos is survived by his wife and two sons. Liu is survived by his wife of two months.

On December 21st, Officer Charlie Kondek of the Tarpon Springs (Fla.) Police Department was shot and killed from ambush by a gunman who had recently been released from prison on parole. The assassin drove over Officer Kondek as he fled the scene. Kondek is survived by his wife and six children.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by texmex

I wish that were true. Unfortunately, most law enforcement shootings are at close range with little or no warning

He was being sarcastic

[texmex]

Originally Posted by Smoke

He was being sarcastic

I know but I still wish it was true. LE or concealed carry, you need to be able to respond quickly. When someone tries to carjack you or rob you or kidnap your trophy wife, that is not the time to be loading your gun. If you are not comfortable with one in the chamber, get a double action revolver (or two or three).

[RSanch111]

Having to, let alone being trained to, cycle a slide on a hand gun before being able to shoot someone as a cop is just stupid. No, he wasn't a police officer..... Having said that, I was watching a show on A&E, I think it was, about police vehicles over the years, which was hosted in part, or which interviewed, in part, Detroit's chief, Isaiah McKinnon, and they showed a couple of DPD bicycle cops rolling up on a dope house, dumping their bicycles, and drawing and cycling the slides on their Glocks. This was before they went to S&W's. Laughed my behind off......

[Mexistrat]

Interesting. This person also said that the new .380 ammo had recently been approved for off-duty carry, and was the reason he was selling his LC-9. He had painted the raised lettering and Ruger emblem on the grip white, and said that the reason for that was to not get it mixed up with the other guys' at the range. He said he did the same to his mags, because "guys like to acquire your mags".

It doesn't surprise me that people lie, but it is somewhat surprising to see someone burrow so deeply into a lie.

[GerSan69]

Originally Posted by RalphMP9FS

I happen to agree with his explanation. Most confrontations can be stopped cold if the bad guy sees and hears a racking semiautomatic. Unlike the vast majority on this forum, I believe it's wrong, in most cases, to have this attitude that, if I pull my weapon, I'm going to fire mentality. So many handgun carriers on here have said exactly that.

...reaffirmed in subsequent posts.

Look, I hope you don't carry a gun, I really don't. If your mindset is such that you really think "the sound of a racking semiautomatic" is enough to stop a fight, Please, don't carry. If you aren't at least ready to shoot immediately when you draw, don't carry. If you have the idea that drawing a weapon in and of itself is all it takes to stop a fight, definitely don't carry. "Common sense" dictates that introducing a firearm into a situation is only done if you plan on shooting it, not because you think it will scare off the bad guy or some other reason.

As for the rest, insulting people with considerably more experience than you is not going to make people think you "get" this very serious subject. Good luck...

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Mexistrat

Interesting. This person also said that the new .380 ammo had recently been approved for off-duty carry, and was the reason he was selling his LC-9. He had painted the raised lettering and Ruger emblem on the grip white, and said that the reason for that was to not get it mixed up with the other guys' at the range. He said he did the same to his mags, because "guys like to acquire your mags".

It doesn't surprise me that people lie, but it is somewhat surprising to see someone burrow so deeply into a lie.

Dude is not a cop . . . .

[Doubless]

A couple or three reasonably random thoughts:

1) police officers are not the same breed of men they were when I was younger. A fair number of them are those that were bullies in HS, and they figured out they could take courses for a year and then have a badge that allows them to continue to push people around. And I have experienced it. I am 61, and although I still try to respect LEOs, that respect is nowhere close to where it was when I was in my 30s.

2) If I ever clear leather with my CC piece, it is going to bark. If you take it out to play show and tell, try to bluff someone, that someone is going to take it away from you and kill you with it. It is the absolute last resort, but if they see it they will feel its effects. Period.

3) When said piece clears leather, it will be ready to rock. No justifiable reason on this earth to not have one in the pipe when you are trying to save your own life.

Just my own $.02...

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by Doubless

2) If I ever clear leather with my CC piece, it is going to bark. If you take it out to play show and tell, try to bluff someone, that someone is going to take it away from you and kill you with it. It is the absolute last resort, but if they see it they will feel its effects. Period.

Most of the self-defense failures I see involve people who didn't actually defend. They:

• drew but did not fire, instead giving warnings or trying to "negotiate".
• drew but were not prepared to fire, mostly due to carrying with an empty chamber.

I don't feel that I MUST shoot if I draw. But I will ONLY draw to shoot.

There's an infinitesimal chance that I might not shoot once I draw, and then only if my assailant flees before attacking, or renders himself harmless beyond all doubt. However, that window of opportunity for my assailant is razor thin. The odds of him squeezing through it are vanishingly small.

If you don't like getting shot, you shouldn't do things that would convince a reasonable person that you NEED to be shot. If you ignore that eminently sensible advice, I haven't an iota of sympathy for you.