Seriously, I am contemplating the occasional switch to .22 LR pistols. I have a couple of them, they're nice and thin and easy to conceal either in a pocket or IWB - even I can IWB a .22 caliber pistol. I say that because IWB used to be easy before I chubbed out. Anyway, they're easy to shoot, pack 8 rounds, it's a tempting concept for a guy who drags a S&W 642 in his pocket every day.

Comments solicited - and you can be as mean and sarcastic as you like!

I probably won't be impressed by stopping power discussions - if I was I'd carry a .45, not a .38. PLENTY of folks stop breathing after being hit by .22 caliber rounds. So try some other persuasive concepts, please.

Thanks.

Well, if stopping power is not a concern in your self defense handgun, then it should work fine....

If thinness and light weight are the real concerns, why not a Kel Tec p-32, or a Ruger LCP? I don't know of any 22 rimfire pistols that are lighter or thinner than these. The "unneeded" increase in stopping power provided by the big .32acp, or the brutal .380acp is just icing on the cake...

Larry

Rimfires are not only anemic by comparison, but are much more prone to misfires than a centerfire.
A defensive gun should really be as reliable as you can get it. This isn't the time for dud rounds.

something I don't understand is why the capacity is so low on 22 pistols when for example the SD9VE holds 16/17 rounds of 9mm?
Norm

Because they are tiny?

The question is: are these little pistols reliable?

A gun that doesn't go bang has zero stopping power.

seems like with the smaller cartridge they should be able to pack them in and get 20 to 30 rounds ...

More people are killed by .22lr every year than any other caliber, but the stopping power is minimal. I have 4 handguns, and 3 rifles in this caliber. I carry a CS 45, however. I suggest as a minimum a .380 or .38 special.

They should and do. Kel-Tec, and in WMR, no less. 30 rounds, and they work.

A 22lr will kill you as dead as an atomic bomb. That said, unless you hit Mr. Bad Guy's heart or brain, he'll be on you doing great bodily harm before he bleeds out. But, by the way your post is written, you've already got your mind made up, so good luck.

I hear this all the time, but I'd be curious to see that statistic in print. I'm not pulling your chain, I'm genuinely curious.

I can believe that it is probably responsible for the most domestic deaths in history, but not every year.

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Because of the metric system?

The greatest advantage to carrying a 22 rim fire is your ability to carry literally hundreds of rounds in your pockets when you have to head for the hills. Try that with your 12 gage shotgun. Just as bad is heading out when the SHTF with your 45 or 40. It's all about the weight of the ammo. CCI ammo virtually never fails so load up on it. You have the flexibility with a 22 from having to kill anything from a deer down to squirrel. I have no problem with self defense using a 22 and some CCI Velocitors. A Smith & Wesson M17 is the best choice for all-purpose emergency carry. A Smith Kit Gun with a 2 or 4 inch barrel is perfect for self defense when loaded properly. When it all comes down to "the world having a really bad day" you'll be the one left with pockets full of ammo when the other "survivalists" are throwing their empty guns at the target. Carrying for self-defense is about being prepared for anything. The only gun that meets that requirement is a 22 revolver.

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Dr. B

.22 ammo is the most unreliable ammo I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to matter what brand I buy, every time I go to the range with the .22 guns/rifles/AR that I am constantly fighting clearing chambers with things go click and not boom.

No way I want to be clearing a click when I needed to hear a boom.


Matt

Now you knew better than ask that question here. If your OK with it do it! 38 spl. Kills my hands and it won't get any better. When I can't take the pain anymore the 34 will be in my snubbyfan holster. If I go " I'll go out in a blaze of glory".

How much thinner is your .22 auto than say a single stack 3913?

I've had all manner of bulk ammo through my Model 63 and can't remember a misfire or dud. I had a Bersa 22 that was 100% reliable as well though I didn't put a huge number of rounds thru it.

I have a PMR 30, have fed it CCI or Hornady cartridges and it has been 100% reliable, even with not recommended bullet weights (less than 40 gr). This gun is pretty big but really thin. Haven't tried to CCW it but I wouldn't feel under gunned if I did.

That's because it's the most common caliber. If everyone carried a 22 then it would be a 100%. I wonder what the most common 22 gun that is used? Ruger? Would that mean Ruger is the most deadly handgun?

No I wouldn't rely on 22 unless no other options existed. If it ment I had to save up a little more money I would.

I'm thinking he's talking semi-autos not revolvers. If it were up to me, thinking critically, there is no reason to carry a K frame 22 for SD when they're no lighter or small than a K frame 357 or 38. As far as carrying the 22 goes,I agree with reasons stated above. FTF issues common with 22, no big deal at the range. HUGE deal when someone is advancing. Another thing is that ANY SD situation will not go how you plan it in your mind.You can put a 22 round into the bullseye at the range all day, good on you. But at 3 am, in an alley ( or your hallway ), with someone coming at you, or shooting at you, that type of accuracy is almost impossible.Keep in mind that if it's in your hallway, you may still be trying to fully shake off the sleep you were just enjoying. They teach center of mass shooting to a LOT of police agencies because it's the biggest target, and one that your body, all amped up on adrenaline will find the easiest.Your fine trigger and accuracy skills decline rapidly under stress and adrenaline.For me, I'll go shotgun for the house, 45 when it's cool enough to allow an overshirt, and my 642 when it's warm.

Sorry for the long winded post.

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1st smiles,lies.Last,gunfire.

I think I'm far more likely to actually discharge a handgun against a dog than a robber- that's the way it is where I live. Since the predominate threat has proven difficult to stop with a 9mm, I carry 10mm, .45acp, and recently .357 sig. I wouldn't consider .22 for a second.

I don't understand the thought process that led you to make that decision. Influenza can kill, but I'm not going to cough in a bad guy's face and then try to wait him out.

The high-capacity pistols typically use magazines that are double-stack and single-feed. With rimless cases this works well at just about any angle. But the .22 rimfire cartridges have a case rim, so in order to work in a double-stack magazine the angle of the magazine in the pistol would have to be fairly steep so that the case rims would not interfere with each other in the magazine. The ergonomics of the pistol would have to be significantly different.

Not that it can't be done, but the market would have to include considerable demand for such a .22 pistol to justify the research and development to bring it to production.

Nothing wrong with a mouse gun.

I have a Beretta 950BS on it's way to me (.25 ACP), which I plan on carrying in the summer when wearing light shorts. It's nice to debate the caliber wars, but I know I'd rather be armed with something. 8+1 rounds of .25 beats nothing, and the the 950 is reportedly reliable, accurate and can spit out 9 rounds in a very fast rate of fire.

I have an NAA .22 Magnum Sheriff, but manually cocking the hammer each shot would be too slow.

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--Rick

.22LR may not be the best SD caliber...
OTOH
let me shoot you in the face with one a few times and then see how you feel about it.

Guys, guys, I said "somebody stop me", I didn't say I was totally committed to it. It's just an idea bouncing around in my head.

I own dozens of guns, some very tiny, some very large. I carried a Beretta 950BS (.25 ACP, as noted above) around for many years because it went everywhere invisibly and it was going to be there when I needed it. After the CHL law passed a 642 in a pocket holster became my EDC. I've been known to carry a variety of other guns under various situations. But slipping a small .22 into my pocket or onto my belt is a concept I'm toying with.

Clint Smith always reminds us that a handgun is a compromise. If you KNOW you're going to a gunfight you take a long arm. So using a .22 LR caliber pistol (mine are pistols and reliable, although I do understand the reality of the total reliability of a .22 wheelgun) is another part of the self defense compromise. I never said my mind was made up........

I shot a dog with a .22 Magnum rifle and he ended up walking away. He dropped when I shot him, and then just lay there. Then he got up and walked away.
Conversely, I shot another dog with a .357 and that was that. No more living dog.
If I sound cruel, I had my reasons for each dog.

When I was much younger, I would sit on hot afternoons like this in the backyard plinking away with the old pump action Winchester .22, going through many bricks and hundreds of rounds a day. Hitting many a can, and testing many a large ol Sears catalogue, I've learned many things about the .22 in casual use.

First of all, the unreliability is a major issue. I wouldn't say that there was a dud in every single brick I every shot, but it was very close, and sometimes you would get two duds in a brick. A failure of 1/500 from the ammunition alone is a poor ratio, and 1/250 at worst, is even worse. Depending on lot and grade that you buy, it might be better, or it could be even worse. When a failure might mean death, this is a serious consideration.

Killing a lot of animals, and shooting a lot of random things, with many different weapons and calibers, I also found that .22 was inconsistent. When I would put bullets through large magazines or old papers that were going to be burned, it was interesting how the rounds would often times pierce all the way through a stack, and a few would get stuck a quarter of the way through. Rimfire not only can lead to reliability issues, but also inconsistent firings and results.

The .22 lr lacks serious penetration, and on the worst angles and thickest of targets to deal with, it may fail. Even when it does penetrate, it does very little damage. If one does not strike the brain or heart, you are relying completely on psychological stop, which may not stop them at all. Whereas a more serious caliber can do major damage to other organs and blood vessels, leading to physical incapacitation through serious blood loss, the .22lr is going to be a critical kill, or a very lousy and incapable wounder.

I've done my fair share of hunting with the cartridge. I also know the type that brags about being able to shoot squirrels int he eye at 50 yards, and talk about shooting deer or other large game with them. Listen to them long enough, and get close enough to them, you will not only hear the stories about the time they shot a deer or moose in the head and killed it, you will also hear the horror stories of when they grazed the skull, or put a bullet through its jaw, and it ran off wounded. 22lr is every country boy's favorite, so favorite they are tempted to use it for everything, and eventually do, leading to more unethical hunting and shots than any other caliber, and more wounded animals than any other caliber. A great deal of hunting horror stories comes from people making long range shots they shouldn't; most are stories revolving around the abuse of the 22lr for tasks it wasn't meant for.

The 22lr is the cartridge everyone loves, because its so easy to shoot, was their childhood favorite, cheap, ect. It often means we forget its downsides and weaknesses, exaggerate its strengths, and glorify its image. Keep in mind, anything can look good if you remember only its strengths and accomplishments, and forget all of its weaknesses and failures.

During my 30 years on the street I saw many big dudes felled by a twenty-two. Remember the big Secret Service Agent dropped by the guy who shot President Reagan? If you want to carry a .22 and understand all the shortcomings then do it. I have in the past and might again if need be.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Awwwww.........seeing Denozo get smacked in the head by Gibbs just makes my day!!!!

+1 John Hinkley damn near took out the US Gov't. in 5 seconds with a "Saturday-night-special" 6 shot revolver loaded with .22 shorts.

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John

Recoil....

I have a NAA 1 1/8" .22LR that got pulled out of the safe a couple years ago (after spending maybe 20+ years buried in it). It sometimes rides in a front pocket holster when I don't expect I'll need to be armed, and don't feel like pocketing one of my J's or LCP's. I consider it probably a better alternative to the bulky tactical pen I got from the S&W rep.

I consider the diminutive .22 for "Onion Field" type situations, not for when I actually expect to need to be armed with a "primary" weapon.

I'll be adding a 1 1/8" .22 MAG version in the near future.

I have a close friend who was recently the intended victim of an armed robbery in a dark parking lot. The suspect (black male adult) who quickly came up to him from behind was wearing a shoulder valise, behind which one of his hands was concealed ... except for the bulk of the extended magazine of what my friend presumed to be a pistol.

The suspect was a bit late in getting his pistol out from behind the shoulder bag, and found himself with a .22 MAG kit gun snub stuck into his belly. A moment of non-verbal communication ensued between suspect and intended victim. I'm guessing the 60's vintage SE Asia Army Ranger vet's expression and mien may have had some effect on the suspect, but that's merely an idle bit of speculation on my part (since I've known the guy for over 40 years).


The suspect apparently decided the one thing he wanted to do more than anything else was to not try and raise/point his gun at my friend, and to run away. My friend, acknowledging he wasn't keen on making the news for shooting a minority robbery suspect, let him flee.

Awareness and reaction time can sometimes help.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Here is a video of a Beretta 950BS .25 ACP mag dump. Skip to 1:15 to get to the good part:

https://youtu.be/vm3CP3ijPIs

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--Rick

Below is the British solution to a .22LR caliber personal defense weapon - the L66A1:





The British Army ordered 3000 of them in the mid 1970s for use by the Ulster Defense Regiment, an infantry regiment operating in Northern Ireland, for off duty carry.

The theory is that they wanted a non British military weapon in a non military caliber, presumably in the event a British soldier was caught with one it could pass as a personally owned weapon, and some folks suggest that the small caliber ensured no British soldier was going to start a fight with one.

They are Walther PP pistols in .22LR with West German military proof marks and originally had no British proof marks at all. This one was FTR'd after it returned to Britain where they were used for training. Most of them were retired in the 1980's with about 1500 of them being imported to the US in the mid 1990s.

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As noted above, .22LR is not a great choice just based on the inherent reliability of he cartridge. Over the years, I've had numerous failures to fire with .22LR, even with high quality ammo. I expect to have one every 200-300 rounds. In contrast I can count the centerfire rounds that have failed to fire over 38 years of reloading and about 40 years of centerfire shooting on one hand, and I shoot a fair bit - a couple hundred rounds a week on average.

The Walther PP in .22LR has a 10 round magazine, but it won't feed the first two rounds reliably, so it is realistically an 8 round pistol - just like the 7.65mm Browning/.32 ACP Walther PP. In that regard I never understood why the British didn't just issue them stock Walther PP pistols in 7.65mm Browning, other than the possibility that they really didn't want their troops starting anything with them.

The Walther PP in .22 LR is also very particular about ammunition in terms of the momentum needed to cycle the slide. It needs high velocity ammo with 40 grain bullet to work reliably.

But with those caveats, mine has been extremely reliable mechanically. The only failures have been ammo related with 3 or 4 rounds every 500 rounds or so that either fail to fire, or lack enough power to fully cycle the slide.

Mine is very accurate, easily grouping around 2" at 25 yards and it's great fun to shoot and slightly lighter than a .32 ACP or .380 ACP PP, given the slightly thinner/lighter slide.

If you want to go small, I suggest consider a PP, PPK/S or PPK in .32 ACP. They are sweethearts to shoot, the cartridge is much more reliable, and it is much more effective than the .22LR.

A .22lr handgun in your pocket when suddenly the SHTF is better than the .44 Magnum back home in the safe.

I used to carry a Colt Combat Commander .45 but as it was too heavy to walk the dogs in shorts on a balmy 95'F Florida day so
would walk them unarmed thinking the dogs kept me safe,
FF to the day my two dogs walking on leash just 5 feet ahead of me grabbed a 5' eastern diamondback rattlesnake out of the tall grass just ahead of my flip flop shod feet and boy did I wish I had even a sharp stick in a hurry.....These days I do not walk them with at least an NAA mini 22lr revolver with 1 or rounds of rat shot alternately loaded.

Most days I carry a Model 37 although when traveling down to Mi-Jami I still prefer a Model 59 and spare mag.

Basicly while I wouldnt want to be holding a .22lr when suddenly the local Bodega gets held up at gunpoint its better than an empty pocket or sharp stick .

Something often overlooked in a "stopping power" conversation is the willpower of an attacker, to continue the fight in the face of a weapon being fired in their direction...... Especially if the aggressor is in the mindset that the victim is "unarmed".......

Kind of like when you step in the shower, and there is a big spider there to great you........

There isn't any guarantee that a handgun caliber is going to change someone's channel. Will a 22 stop someone? Yes eventually. But not near fast enough.

We know that these events happen in extremely close quarters. Which is why I carry the biggest caliber that I can shoot effectively and repeatedly.

I'm not old. But I'm old enough. I can't run as fast. I'm not as strong as I once was. I can't stand toe to toe with a younger stronger attacker. Armed or not, I want him stopped immediately or as close to immediately as I can get.

Bigger is better. But only if we can handle "bigger".

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

We took our son's Scout troop out several years ago for a rifle shooting weekend. A recently purchased quantity of Winchester .22 LR was used. That stuff was filthy and we experienced multiple failures to fire with various types of rifles. I would not feel comfortable relying on anything chambered for .22 RF for defense, but it certainly beats your bare hands...

I like this report.

The majority of people stop what they are doing when shot, either from physical incapacitation or psychological. However, the number who didn't stop was double for calibers smaller that .380. .380 and above were about the same.

As far as rimfire reliability... With good ammo like CCI and a revolver I'd not fret over reliability too much. Even if there's no ignition you just pull the trigger for another go at it with a new round. I wouldn't choose a rimfire autoloader for carry even though my Ruger pistols are quite reliable. With caliber and rimfire ignition already not in your favor, that's enough without adding more potential complications.

To get relief from the bulk of a 642 for pocket carry, I have an LCP.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I used to carry a Beretta 21A back when maximum concealment was most important, and the only other option was a .25. I spent so much time practicing with the little Beretta that I wore it out and had to buy another. At the time, there was no Tomcat, and the Secamps were expensive and hard to come buy, and the Walther PPK in .32 was so elusive it seemed like a myth. Anyway, kept clean, lubed, and fed quality solid nose ammo, the Beretta functioned very reliably. That said, there are probably better options, but if a .22 is what you're comfortable with, you're better off with one than be I g unarmed. My only beef currently with .22s is that ammo is still so scarce.

I have a High Standard Sentinal, 9 shot, 2 in. barrel with a round butt. I keep it so if my arthritis gets so bad I can't handle the recoil from a real gun I will carry it. With a rev. if a shell doesn't fire just keep pulling the trigger. There is no way I will carry an auto in .22 for defense especially one with a tip up barrel and no extractor. Larry

I like this thread. On the internet it's easy to say that the minimum caliber for defense should be a 38 special, 9mm or whatever, when I just need to go get a loaf of bread in my safe neighborhood the hassle of putting on a holster can make me skip carrying.

Can I ask what 22 you are considering?

I carry a BG380 in a Hedley pocket holster when I'm feeling lazy. Since it "prints" just like wallet I can wear it with anything.

Other than the NAA series revolvers I don't see many guns that weigh less than the BG380. My friend has a Seecamp 32 and while it's noticeably smaller, it weighs about the same and so I don't see it as an improvement over the BG380.

Since you are more likely to shoot yourself than anyone else, I think .22lr is a wise choice.

Well, my Sig P938 is pretty small and thin.....



But if I want real thin, I'll go with my Kahr CW380.



If I were to use .22 LR for defense, I'd probably opt for a revolver.

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- The Federalist #46 -

Would not be my choice, but if it makes you happy, its better than nothing.

If you need hundreds of rounds for an EDC, you probably are better off throwing the gun at the bad guy.

This thread reminds me of the old saw about lightweight hunting rifles.
It always goes like this:
"You carry a rifle a lot more than you shoot it..."
True enough. But the whole point of carrying the gun for is to hit and kill something when you use it.

John Hinckley technically did kill James @'Brady with a .22.. His death last year was ruled a homocide. But there's a huge difference between ambushing a group of people (including inattentive SS agents who were not watching the crowd) and stopping someone who is attacking you.

I worked a case years ago where two brother's in law shot and killed each other after an argument. Witnesses reported that the first BIL reached into his closet and pulled out a .22 semi auto rifle and shot second BIL fifteen times. After being shot fifteen times he made his way outside to his pickup truck, retreived his .38 revolver, came back inside the house and shot the first BIL one time with the .38 Special. Both were found dead on the scene when we arrived.

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- Change it back -

When I was shooting .22 many years ago we never had a misfire. QC has gotten ****** like everything else.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

You obviously didn't hit the vital core. Where is the vital core on a dog anyway??

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

i have a Walther TPH pistol in .22LR. Small compact pistol. It can fit in my shirt pocket. It has always been reliable for me. I'm not allowed to carry it.

My attitude about a .22 pistol is that it is like a rattlesnake. A rattlesnake's rattles are a warning, but it is the rattlesnake's fangs that will kill you. My Walther TPH is a warning. My fangs are a .44 Special.

My Kel Tec P32 is usually with me, except when sleeping, or showering. It has gone bang every time I have pulled the trigger. 8 rounds of 73 grain FMJ Fiocchi, and fully loaded, it weighs all of 10 ounces. The only time the 32 isn't in my right front pocket, is when my model 60, with 158 grain BB standard pressure wadcutters, is in my jacket. Sometimes I have both available. I forget the Kel Tec is even there. My 2cents.

If I was going to carry a .22, I wold use non-bulk ammo. CCI Mini-Mags would be the minimum and I would not use hollow points as they have in many peoples opinion poor penetration. Unless it's a head shot then any type would work. For ignition reliability I lean towards the European brands, such as RWS or Eley.