I'm sure the courts and defense attorneys would love this type of event, along with the civil attorneys in a lawsuit.

REALLY? High stress, panic, adrenaline rush ---shoot to HIT !

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John

Bounce-back bullets happen occasionally at bowling pin matches. I have been shooting pins since 1978, and I have never been hit by a bounce-back bullet.

I recognize this is an old thread. . .

With regard to the hole-shot postulate and discussion. . .

Seems to me like training to shoot from that far behind a barricade opening reminds me of shooting from back in the room rather than sticking the barrel out the window and marking your position, and so on per FM 23-10.

It also drastically reduces one's field of view. That's what a spotter or security squad is for due to the danger inherent in the required tunnel vision focus necessary on the part of the shooter.

Civilian shooters might consider being asked "If you shot through that little hole how can you maintain that you were aware of your surroundings?" "Did you even see your unintended victim as he walked into the path of your bullet?"

I'm glad you brought it back, as I missed it the 1st time around. As for a ricochet, I was struck in the upper are by a .45 that bounces off of my plywood backstop at 15 yards. After nearly 30 of having this range in my yard, and thousands of rounds fired, I was astonished when it happened. I looked down and found the bullet at my feet! No skin broken but it sure did sting when it hit. Believe it, bullets will bounce back off of plywood.

Reported by people that have little to no knowledge or experience with what they are reporting on. DON'T LOOK LIKE ANY "PUBLIC" RANGE I'VE EVER SEEN. Some type of comp course. In a real deal, I'm gonna shoot ANY & EVERY part I can until my life is no longer in danger (hopefully). Standing still, shooting thru a glory hole at a stationary target??? The logic doesn't jump out at me.

Saw a guy shoot himself in the middle finger of his shooting hand when a handload wadcutter 38 entered and then rebounded out of a locust 4x4 post at 30 feet or so. Dimple in his finger and slug at his feet. Caliber or so deep wadcutter impression in post.

OMG! I want to puke. In post 19 the so called expert said that lethality was dependent upon The amount of energy hitting the target and that two rounds with 400 or so foot pounds on center mass would do it. The man’s head has to be where the sun does not shine. Now I did drink a double scotch on the rocks before I watched the video, so maybe I misunderstood but, I don’t think so. The guy is dispensing worthless training and advice.

He also entertained the question of shhotmto kill,or wound. Any knowledgeable instructor would have simply said that you shoot to stop the attack whether you kill, wound or simply scare the assailant off. and people,pay him to be able,to,shoot through a hole in a board. Yikes!!

OK, maybe I'm missing your point. If it's not transfer of energy that stops the threat, what is it?

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Freedom isn't free.

It is accuracy. No matter how much energy is delivered at the point of target contact it is not going to be lethal in itself. A 22, 25, 32, 38 or 380 can be lethal when it hits the target in the right place. Shooting 9mm and larger is going to deliver a lot more energy than the smaller calibers, but it has to hit s lethal area to be lethal. In my mind energy is #2.

In Illinois if its a good shoot the Family can't sue you !! it's written in the Conceal Carry Law ..

I completely agree Richard. Shot placement trumps all. Still have to have enough energy to do some damage, but if you can't place it where it needs to be, all the energy in the world won't help.

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Freedom isn't free.

This is what everyone SHOULD be taught to do and to say if they are ever asked this sort of stupid question.

FoxNews doesn't do much better than CNN or any other news outlet in reporting gun issues. Some of their reporters are clearly anti 2A, and most of the one that aren't are woefully ignorant on anything to do with guns or shooting.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

It's shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. All the rest is fodder for arguments.

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Who watches the watchers?

Maybe it's just me, but I was taught the central nervous system (for our purposes) was the medulla oblongata (brain stem) and the spine down to the C7 vertebra. Neither are in the center chest.

Yes, shot placement trumps the rest of the stuff-assuming sufficient energy to reach and damage vital systems and structures.

Not exactly. Yes, I completely agree that shot placement is at the top of the list, but energy isn't completely unimportant either.

If I hit you directly in the heart with a feather, it's probably not going to stop you.

Here's how we say it in my martial arts school:
ASP- An Asp is a very nasty little snake. Not the most deadly, but still nasty. So we use it as an acronym to remember what's important...
Accuracy
Speed
Power

Power- When talking about firearms, is what you brought. You can't change it or increase that power. This is why we talk about it, but it's last in the acronym; it is what it is.

Speed- You have to have some speed or your beaten before you can defend yourself. You have to bring your defense as fast as you can. If you don't, they may finish you first.

Accuracy- You might have an 88 magnum, you might bring it to bear in .01 seconds, but if you don't hit your target, it's wasted. Anyone, ANYONE can miss fast. Slow and accurate is better than fast and missing.

So, be accurate. Practice your accuracy a lot and you will become faster. Bring enough power to solve the situation. Yes, even the lowly .22LR can be enough if you're fast and accurate.

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Freedom isn't free.

But, but, I never saw the Lone Ranger, Roy, Gene, or Hoppy do anything but shoot the gun out of the BG's hand. Where has our marksmanship gone?

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Eccentric old coot

People DON'T WANT to be on the same page. That way they can confuse issues. e.g. If you are against legal immigration, you hate immigrants and every argument that comes up about the issue is said to be about 'immigration'. Not, ILLEGAL immigration.

Terms in the use of guns are even more easily able to sow confusion, as we have seen with 'ghost guns', 'assault rifles' and the like.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Guns 101: Shoot to kill vs shoot to wound| Latest News Videos | Fox News

I do not shoot to kill. i do not shoot to wound. I do shoot to stop

As long as Hollywood continues to show movie/TV heros who shoot someone in the leg (e.g., wound) this myth will never go away. I’ve been “there” and even as a uniform cop you have zero time to take an aimed shot. Those who have control over this have no interest in the truth, only selling their product for the most profit they can.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Shoot to wound is the reason they came up with the 1911 way back when.

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

A cardinal rule of tactical firearms training is realistic scenarios that the good guy can win if he deploys as he's taught.

Military accepts casualties and fatalities as business costs.

Civilian law enforcement seeks to mitigate or, if possible, eliminate casualties and fatalities.

Inside of an hour I could teach most women to do what the the woman if the video did, which was very ordinary. Targets don't shoot back. Simunition is tactical firearms training. I wonder how well that woman would do under simulated high stress tactical training.

I wish I had a nickel for every gun expert I've run across who didn't have a clue of what he was talking about.

When I hear "Spray and pray," I get to thinkin' neophyte.

Don’t forget there is another option besides shoot to kill and shoot to wound.
The Lone Ranger and Roy Rodgers would usually shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand, disarming the threat and resulting in nothing worse than a sore hand.

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Accuracy supercedes Speed

Yeah Boy!!!!

I personally like to use silver bullets. Ya know, jest to lessen the risk of infection.

And, ya never know when ya might need to dispatch a vampire.

But, as ol Doc Holiday once declared to Marshal Earp, "Don't worry Wyatt, I jest wing'd him!"

So, this fox news story is just about as silly as Doc's admission.

Oh, before I forget, this thread needs more pictures...




.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Shoot to stop the threat!

I do NOT know anyone that "wants to shoot" people good or bad! With that said people cause themselves to be shot..... stupid is as stupid does

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M&P 357sig,G31 357sig,M&P 9

I shoot to wound, hopefully hitting the central nervous system. If the felon dies, oh well.

Side tracking, why does everyone presume they're going to be viciously attacked by a dude with a swastika tattooed on his forehead?

Pro-tip: Family, friends, and neighbors will try to kill you, too, and plenty of SD-in-the-home shootings wind up being some dopey drunk, and not Ronnie the Habitual Re-Offender.

If you're mentally psyching yourself to do battle with a third-striker, it's gonna be real funny watching you get blindsided by your schizophrenic brother-in-law.

If I ever have to defend myself or another with deadly force, I am going to do whatever it takes at that time. Then, keep my big mouth shut and let an attorney answer the what whys and wheres.

History has shown that many times a large number of rounds have been fired with a small percentage actually striking the intended target.

''
I don't believe center mass means the abdominal area but rather the center of the chest. That's how I've always considered it.

Center mass is middle of the biggest part that presents itself for shooting . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

What Muss said. It's called center of EXPOSED mass.

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In Omnia Paratus

In Texas, the statue implies,
It's unlawful to reveal a ccw so as to intimidate or threaten(to include discourage)
It's unlawful to remove from it's holster and brandish it so as to intimidate or threaten(to include discourage).
It's unlawful to shoot to maim or otherwise injure.

Those imply you're left with only 1 option. If that weapon leaves its holster, you have to shoot to kill to keep from breaking the law.

Ever shoot a Taurus? I have tried to, lord knows i tried to shoot them. I have tried and tried to shoot the 3 I own. Frankly I have way better things to do with my time than ever again try to shoot a Taurus. As they say though, your millage may vary.

I hope that everyone here knows this. Firing at someone is the definition of Deadly Force. The TV idea that one could shoot the bad guy just a little is pure bunk. There is no justification for Deadly Force except that the bad guy is doing something so heinous that it must be stopped at all costs and it's immaterial if he lives or dies as a result. One should never shoot to kill or wound... it isn't even germane to the discussion. You shoot to stop his criminal action and only so long as his criminal action continues.
A person might well die from a wound to an extremity... that's why it's called deadly force.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

So don’t use deadly force to stop the bad guy to avoid a law suit?
Don’t do anything but run away right?

"Shoot to wound" is a lawyers wet dream: "If your life wasn't in danger you didn't need to shoot @ all, why did you try to murder my poor, misunderstood client?" Kind of hard to get traction w/ "I shot to stop the threat." Either pull that gun & stop the threat or don't pull it @ all. I shoot w/ intent to kill when hunting or rattlesnakes.

Shooting to wound is assault. You don't have a right to assault anyone. You do have a right to use deadly force in certain situations.

Back in the 1970's, my department was getting a lot of flack from one local news reporter regarding OIS where he felt the police should have only wounded the suspect. This went on for several months and finally the brass thought it would be a good idea to invite this reporter to our, then new, police academy and allow him to shoot the Tactical course that our cadets were required to qualify on.

He showed up at the appointed time with a camera crew and his choice of weapon was a Browning High Power that he was, oddly enough, familiar with. He was placed in a shooting booth with an instructor on either side of him and given a loaded high power with 16 rounds and the button was pushed and the tactical course began. The course did include low light, red and blue flashing lights as well as sirens and police radio chatter.

Half way through the course of fire, he had expended all of his rounds, never scoured one hit and pissed his pants. Strangely, none of the video was ever on the news and he got off our butts and found a new job in a city far away.

And there in lies the major problem. To many Lone Ranger movies viewed by those who don't shoot.

Who can prove you weren't aiming for his gun? Nervous and missed the gun, he moved at the last second. Ask my lawyer where I was aiming and why and why the bullet ended up where it did

Fourth reboot of a four year old thread. But the press has become much better about reporting fairly about firearms since then...

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Edit: Just realized this was a resurrected, old thread...



Never seen a 9 hole barrier before?


Completely safe and I do it all the time. I had the local high school wood shop make me three, all I did was supply the plans and materials. It was a graded project and they did a great job.... only missed one hole

watching the video, how do you walk past the window to engage a target over the barricade then go back to the window and engage a target without taking a procedural penalty??

Shooting was clearly a match event either IDPA or USPSA

Shoot to wound or shoot to kill? Nah, you shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand!

I am detecting an ever so slight thread drift....