So just taking a survey and maybe sparking a little discussion on how to load a short shotgun kept for defensive ​purposes. How would you set it up for the first shot?

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Why?

Short shotguns don't enhance spread hardly at all. The advantage is in its concealability. You wouldn't have the accuracy when using slugs (human error and shorter sight radius). Blunderbusses had the flared barrel to facilitate loading under pressure not for increasing spread.

Assuming no choke, spread would be at the same rate. If the spread is normally 4" at a foot from the muzzle, it would still be 4" at a foot from the muzzle (MAYBE!).

I load mine with number 4 buck exclusively.

me too....

Since it's pretty useless in my home, my Ithaca Model 37 DS/PS stays locked in the safe.

When I did live somewhere where it was useful, I used #4 buck exclusively. I did have some 00 buck and some slugs, but kept the shotgun loaded with #4.

Those huge holes blown in doors that you could fit your head thru, seen in films is BS. You might be lucky to make a glory hole. Pattern your ammo to see just how much they DON'T open up. The plastic wad may be what kills.

Having hunted half of my life with buckshot...you'd be surprised to learn how close the gun has to be for the wad to penetrate. About six inches to muzzle contact distance. Beyond that it tends to just hang in the entrance wound.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

R-U shooting blanks? I've seen wads make holes in plywood numerous times from 10 yards/360". Stuff happens so I don't doubt you have experienced that. I agree wholeheartedly with the full stock being more accurate/controllable, and less maneuverable, BUT they take up more room, & are harder to conceal. Hopefully that's why people are using them & not cuz they are tacticool.

Me too.

Larry

At house range (10-20'), it's hard to beat a 3" #4 turkey load. A bad guy would have a hard time continuing to be 'bad' after being hit with that many hard pellets. Neutralizing the threat is what's important in this scenario.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

My only experience with a shotgun was shooting #00 buckshot with an 18" Remington 870 police shotgun, so one should probably take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I have researched using a shotgun for HD, and it seems like the best choice is the 2-3/4" #1 buckshot load as it penetrates deeper than #4 buckshot but with less risk of overpenetration in close quarters than #00 buckshot. So, disregarding the practicality of a pistol-gripped, short-barrel "non-shotgun" like the Shockwave, I'd go with the #1 buckshot. I have no idea what kind of recoil one would experience shooting a Shockwave with #1 buckshot, but my limited experience with #00 buckshot in a full-size shotgun was not what I would call "pleasant."

Personally, I think of the Shockwave as more of a novelty item than a practical SD weapon. It's only advantage is concealment, so the only real benefit I see to it is either one intends to carry it concealed or one has a secure hiding place that the Shockwave can fit into but not a stocked shotgun. I view the shotgun at its best as a "hunker-down-in-the-saferoom" HD gun.

Having said that, I do think it would be neat to have one as it reminds me of the cut down shotguns used by the US Marshals Service Witness Security (WITSEC) deputies.

Just my opinion.

Even a Goose load of steel pellet #T's would do the job........

Heck, it is a 12 Ga. !!

Interesting suggestion on the #1 Buck. I had actually considered loading the whole thing with Baby Mag #1's, but sadly they seem to be unobtainable anymore. I'm running either a 3" OOO Buck or 3" #4 Buck if there was something that needed the shot to be contained.
Recoil with this gun is really not abusive. I roll with it fairly easily and I love the ability to push pull cycle the gun. It translates into very fast cycle times. Take my evaluation with a grain of salt, I am a fan of recoil.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

I'm sort of a shotgun guy. I understand the theory of pattern spread and much more importantly the actual truth as it pertains to this particular gadget. I chose a 3" 000 Buck shell as the lead off for its ability to bring quite a bit all at once up close and still retain pretty penetration​ at some distance.
Really I was trying to get back to the romance of fixed choke shotguns and the varied first shell which was as personally varied as the socks folks wore. One might swear by a "Baby Mag"(2¾" Magnum) #1Buck as my Father did or be a die hard #4Buck guy like my Uncle. There are often interesting stories behind the choice of shot.
Jim Cirillo had an interesting idea about setting up a shotgun for combat that varied for daytime and nighttime, but let's hear your ideas....

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Setting it up? First shot? No, I wouldn't suggest anything fancy. Just load 'er up with 00 Buck. If for some reason you need to take a longer shot, like 50 yards, do a "select slug" reload and put a slug in there. Otherwise, every defensive shell is 00 Buck.

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Freedom isn't free.

It's a hallway gun. #8 will do the job. Everything else is just bar talk . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

^^^^^^^^
What he said!

All this fuss about buckshot and slugs in the house is silly.

A trap load of # 8 in the house is all you need.

Folks that haven't killed critters with a shotgun get carried away imagining what's necessary at self defense ranges in real world applications (not fantacy zombie attacks).

Inside a house, use any shot size you want. A 50 yard shot with a slug is not self defense, not in Tennessee anyway. The judge will not compliment you on your marksmanship for sure.

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Just a shooter

+1

Shooting Illustrated | Buckshot vs. Birdshot for Home Defense

And if #8 isn't enough, there are lots of option between #8 and 00. At self-defense ranges inside the typical home, 00 has way more penetration than needed. A hunting load is an ounce or more of lead at 1200fps muzzle velocity hitting at 5yds, 7rds, 10yds in a home scenario. #6's, #5's, #4's are going to turn any body part in its path into hamburger. No way is a perp getting up after that. And all while minimizing the risk of killing the neighbor next door, or the same for a family member in the next room.

JMHO



.

Despite report after report to the contrary, blanket statements like these still exist. There's no such thing as a GUARENTEED one shot stop. Perps take multiple hits all the time from much bigger/faster projectiles than birdshot. Just ask Rapper Fiddy cent. TOO much gun for defending your life???

A wad make holes in plywood? From 10 yards? Then why are we loading shot or slugs in our guns at all? I've seen a lot of shotguns patterned on paper and cardboard. I've seen the wad make holes in both of those at 13 yards. I've seen plenty of shotgun shots at plywood, but I've never seen a wad put a hole in plywood by itself.

Exactly right. And this is why trusting your life to bird shot is...well...not advised. Use the largest, most destructive load you can effectively place on target. Could #8 stop someone? Well, I guess, but I'm sticking with a real load for self-defense.

Actually, I don't understand why anyone would even do that. What's the reasoning? They don't recoil less.

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Freedom isn't free.

I agree with 00 Buck.
I don't think a 50 yard hit with a slug is possible, unless there are 10-12 folks shooting at the same target.
But hey, I was pretty good with a M-79 Grenade Launcher. (Blooper) So just maybe........

Disclaimer- I'm nowhere near the marksman Hickok45 is, and perhaps just as importantly, I'm not nearly as big a guy as he is.

But on his review of the Shockwave, he was pretty accurate with it, and handled it well. He put slugs on target on the gong, I think that is 80 yds at his home range.

He seemed to hold it "almost" at eye level, maybe about sternum height, and was controlling recoil well (heck, he was dual-wielding in the intro!).

I was at a buddy's home range. His 870 has a rifled barrel and rifle sights.

My 870 is a Wing Master with a shotgun barrel that is cut to 19" and no sights. Shooting slugs, we could hit a man sized steel target at 50 yds. no problem. With no sights.

At home, first 4 shells are 2 3/4" 0000 buckshot. #5 is a slug.

Put me down as another for 00 buck. It's what I know for shotguns, and have a good supply on hand, I'd stuff it full and be pleased and confident with that loading.

I'm a bit intrigued with the shockwave, wouldn't mind having one of my own.

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America First

Not only is 50 yards possible, I've done it under time pressure successfully.

I agree that a 50 yard shot is very unlikely. That's why I say to load the gun with 00 Buck and load the slug when you have to.


I don't understand this thinking. No one would pick a .22LR as their first choice. Yet, when it comes to a shotgun, bunches of guys pick the projectile that's 2 1/2 times smaller? It will potentially wound, but it is not a stopper. When the bad guy comes in, you want to stop him, now.

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - The Box O' Truth

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Freedom isn't free.

I'm taking the first shot as a 3" shell for free as far as capacity is concerned. I'm not going to make the gun less handy by the addition of a side saddle for extra shells, so capacity is important. My first shot is unique; it is my opportunity to make a decisive action at this point, so I want to make the most of that. If I could somehow get a 3½" first shot, I would seriously consider it; especially since it is the equivalent to having fired the gun twice with OO Buck.

There is a very, very slim chance that a game bird or turkey is going to break into my home or accost me in such a way as to demand shooting it in self defense. As such, there is no way in hell that I will ever be loading a defensive shotgun with fine shot. Folks that want to take that chance are welcome to, but I'd request that we confine our discussions of shells loaded to buckshot or slugs please.

Perhaps you need to visit Tarhunt.com. There was at one time a very good discussion about the accuracy and limitations of slugs to be found there. It talked about the major limitation of the slug being the lack of stability at or beyond the transonic point which occurred at 125-150 yards for Foster slugs typically. The 50yard trajectory of a slug is stable out of most smoothbores that have not been "back-bored" to almost boring regularity. The biggest limitations are often a lack of sights and more often an operator who is incapable of finding or maintaining a repeatable hold.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

So, using a slug on a bad guy who's inside your house isn't self-defense?

I don't like having different loads in a self-defense gun. The reason is, if the first shot misses, I probably want the second shot to be the same load. And, I probably want that second shot to be just as powerful/effective as the first under any circumstances.

Then, what if there are two bad guys? Wouldn't you want the same stopping power for the second guy? So, I say, load full up with whatever you decide is the right first round.


The shotgun is a capacity deficient tool. At best you're looking at 8 rounds and most of us have less. Shotguns like the Saiga are not common and quite difficult to wield. The KSG is the best for capacity.

A side saddle really isn't a problem, but I don't like the extra stuff either. In the unlikely event that you might need a slug, I'd go with this shell holder:

It's one way to get that extra round without being too interfering.

Also, one must pick the right gun. Any shotgun will do, but a regular hunting gun with a 28" barrel is difficult to maneuver in the house. If you're doing it correctly, letting the bad guy come to you, length is less of an issue. I like this one for home defense:

Not expensive and holds 8 rounds. The sights are effective, but don't limit your field of view. This is a very reliable gun when properly maintained. I've fired Trap loads to full power (1400FPS) 00 Buck without ever failing to cycle.

So, get the right gun. Load it with all the same loads to reduce confusion. More importantly, have your fist and second lines of defense in place so they don't get in your house in the first place.

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Freedom isn't free.

I don't honestly see a marked difference between the first shot and second shot in my setup. I just tried something and found I can change that last two shells in the magazine out for 3" and suffer no loss to capacity. That's a lucky discovery indeed. I guess I'm set for several bad guys now...
The trade off of capacity for handling is tangible. I have a side saddle on a shotgun and in this case the balance point is obstructed, the with is doubled, and it defeats the purpose of this platform. The match saver is a great idea for matches. I don't want one to put on a defense gun anymore than I would ghost load a defensive Benelli.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

Thanks for the info. I'll look for his video.
Old Hickok45 is a amazing shooter.
Thanks.

My first round would be the same as the rest of the rounds.

In theory , no1 Buck would be best balance of pattern density and pellet size . But alas it is rare on the shelf in my area, and Federal Tactical 00B is plentiful, so that what I usually roll with. If you were speaking literally in the home, 4B would be more or less viable , but for my rural home, front door to end of driveway is close to 50yds.

No, I'm not volunteering to take a load of #8 to the face at close range. But the various birdshot has reallly, really shallow penetration, and I'm not even a penetration obsessed guy. Like 1-2 inches of pnetration. Unless I'm mugged while dove hunting ( actually a real thing) , I'll pass .

In actual fact my first couple of rounds currently loaded are duplex loads of #4 birdshot and BB shot. Factory Remington loads (MRP12S BBX4). But #8s or 7 1/2s at room distance would do as well or better. Mostly because they are still a seething mass 'o destruction at that distance. Not really separate shot at all.

But for any kind of distance beyond "inside the house" they aren't so good.

Federal LE Flight Control 12ga. 00 Buck from my Beretta 1301 Tactical. At 10 yards this stuff still holds a pattern not much bigger than your fist.

I WOULD CHOOSE THE 2 3/4" SHELL, LOADED WITH #00 BUCK.....

I CAN'T IMAGINE A SCENARIO--THAT WOULD BE JUDGED IN A COURT AS DEFENSIVE-- WHEREIN A SLUG WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE LOAD.........

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I bought the shockwave for the fun of having a legal "sawed off" size shotgun and it's nice to have that maneuverable "firearm" in my Mustang GT if I ever do need 00 Buck to get me home.

My Shockwave should arrive Tuesday. I'll be practicing with and keeping loaded 00 for the scientific reason that I already got a bunch on hand. Poking around the Net... most of what I read indicates there won't be a significant difference in velocity or pattern compared to my 18in Win Defender.

A tape measure reveals that my Defender with a pistol grip installed would only be about 2 inches longer than the Shockwave. Can someone remind me again why I bought the Shockwave?

Because deep down in your mind, you think you're not supposed to have it, so you want it! Right? I've had a Mossberg 500 18" shotgun by my bed for probably 25 years. I eventually took the pistol grip off because "old Arthur" is creeping into my hands, and it's not as much fun on the range as it used to be. I've struggled with this same question for years, but never asked it. I think that within the range that I would be shooting it (if ever used for defense), any of the buckshot loads would settle things down quickly.

I used to have a cartridge sling attached to it full of shells. But the darn thing was so heavy I wised up and removed it, plus it could easily snag on a door knob or something at the wrong time. I have 5 rounds in it, which should be plenty, even if it was birdshot.

Anyone that thinks that's not enough, should take some water filled jugs to the range and unload some #7's on it from 15' and then see if penetrates, or disrupts the jugs evil intentions.

Of course that's the reason we all wanted one.

It's not that I dispute the effectiveness of your tacticool grouse hunt, I have enough buck shot that I don't have to half measure it to death with 7½'s. I saw an x-ray in a shooting class once that showed a sternum stopping a load of fine shot and what got by was less than impressive. The individual that was shot survived.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

I ordered the Shockwave with the possibility of making it a permanent truck gun and something to have besides a handgun when staying at cabin rentals in the Smokies we frequent. Not sure I'll find a place for it to remain in the truck or not... 26 inches is still pretty good size. Or maybe it'll find itself in the master bedroom at the side of the nightstand. I duknow... maybe not. I'll figure out something for it. How about you guys?

So I bevelled the loading port on my Shockwave and took all the take up out of the trigger. I applied loctite releasable to the stock screw since there was none and I intend to shoot the hell out of this gun. I used this synthetic two point sling that's rapidly adjustable from pretty taut to loose enough to sling the gun over a shoulder. I've been carrying the gun in the vehicle when I travel, when I walk around my property checking things and I keep it close in the house in the evening. I don't do permanent guns in vehicles overnight. Another explanation avoided. It can be easily covered by a windbreaker or hoodie and still be available. Another favorite is a dark colored towel to cover short long guns. Nobody sees it right there in plain sight. I find it really handy and it's very easily moved in and out of places even in daylight. Currently running​ 3x3" OOB and 3x2¾" OB because I can and I have 3x2¾" OB and 3x2¾" ⅞ oz. slug in the caddy. I feel like it's a decent blend of simple and effective.

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This≠DodgeCity&You≠BillHickok

The reasoning is irrelevant in my book. I'm on board with more guns. No reason necessary other than you wanted it.


Now a personal note on the viability of such a tool; it's gonna hurt to shoot it. Buckshot is my preferred self-defense load. To be really effective, it needs to be 1,300FPS or more. I've fired shotguns with just a pistol grip and they're not fun. This doesn't even have that.

To be effective with any self-defense tool, you need to practice with it. I wouldn't practice with this because it will just hurt too much. Call me silly, but I want a shoulder stock on my shotguns.

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Freedom isn't free.

Mine more or less permanently resides on the bedside table, next to a .45 Shield (I like options). Sometimes I'll bring it back here into my "office", other times maybe out into the room that serves as a home gym...but it always ends up back on the bedside table. I haven't really found a suitable way (for me) for carrying it around in the car or truck...and it's too big to fit into my truck's hidey-hole.

I've actually considered buying a second one, but it's low on my list of gun priorities right now.

Because the Shockwave is cool and you can.
I'm really enjoying mine.

Reason to buy??? Do not let my wife hear that.LOL

The warm fuzzy one gets telling the powers that be to......

00 buck.

Just because my dad told me so. As my age increases I've come to realize his advice is usually spot on.

Also, guns work because they penetrate. Underpenetration is more of a concern for me than the opposite.

I had a bad dream once where the bad guy was coming at me, I kept shooting him but the hits had no effect...and he kept coming...

OK, I don't know why, but I didn't realize we were talking about a shotgun with no stock.

I love guns, all guns. This is not something I'd use for home defense though.

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Freedom isn't free.

I just wedge it gently between the passenger seat and center console in my Mustang. Put a old shirt on the bird head grip and it disappears.

Rastoff have you fired a Shockwave yet?
I have and it isn't like my Mossberg 500 pistol gripped Cruiser was before I installed a M-4 style telescoping butt stock on it.
With the bird's head grip the recoil is not bad at all with 2 3/4' 00 buck shot.
Try it I think you'll like it.

This is an excellent video (like all of his). It amazed me the regularity with which he can hit the 80 yard gong with slugs and that gun. Even silhouette targets too.

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Possum—The other white meat!