Post Bruen & the USPS

[SAFireman]

Do you guys think that we will see a change to the policy of the US Postal service to allow lawful carry by licensee on the premises, or inside the buildings?

I would suspect that they would make a policy similar to the US Parks, where they followed (mirrored?) local CCW laws.

[stansdds]

Highly unlikely unless there is further legal action and the SCOTUS rules that bans on carry in government buildings/facilities is unconstitutional. I doubt the SCOTUS would go that far.

[ColbyBruce]

No. I have witnessed a postal inspector run a county police officer out of a lobby, explaining that checking one’s PO Box was not part of official duty and the officer was prohibited from entering the place armed.

[fatcat3]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

No. I have witnessed a postal inspector run a county police officer out of a lobby, explaining that checking one’s PO Box was not part of official duty and the officer was prohibited from entering the place armed.

Another bureaucrat getting his/her jollies telling people what they can and can't do.

[JDinAZ]

An interesting angle to all these unconstitutional restrictions on “gov property”

Gov property is paid for and maintains by Public Funds

Public Funds sourced from all of our pockets

Would that not create a Nexus, for all Americans to actually be partial owners of said “gov property” based on said property being paid for by all Americans

Therefore Americans cannot be denied the ability to carry on “gov property” due to the Nexus of funds that creates the partial or co-op ownership

[1075tech]

Originally Posted by fatcat3

Another bureaucrat getting his/her jollies telling people what they can and can't do.

Why should a "County Police Officer" be granted special permissions because of his choice of employment?

That same police officer would put the cuffs on you faster than you could say "muh 2nd amendment rights" if you did the same.

[Laketime]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

No. I have witnessed a postal inspector run a county police officer out of a lobby, explaining that checking one’s PO Box was not part of official duty and the officer was prohibited from entering the place armed.

The cop should return the courtesy and arrest him for jaywalking next time he does.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

No. I have witnessed a postal inspector run a county police officer out of a lobby, explaining that checking one’s PO Box was not part of official duty and the officer was prohibited from entering the place armed.

When I was an LEO, I was required to carry concealed when I was off duty. That included getting my mail at the local post office.

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by BB57

When I was an LEO, I was required to carry concealed when I was off duty. That included getting my mail at the local post office.

In all fairness to the Postal Inspector, the county officer looked like a person who resided under a bridge on I-285, smelled of alcohol, and had a Colt .380 stuck in his waistband. It was hard to determine if he was unkempt or undercover as he always looked like that. I delivered mail to the apartment complex he lived in.

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by BB57

When I was an LEO, I was required to carry concealed when I was off duty. That included getting my mail at the local post office.

So you openly admit you violated federal law?

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by SAFireman

I would suspect that they would make a policy similar to the US Parks, where they followed (mirrored?) local CCW laws.

I was under the impression that carry in buildings at parks was a no-no.

In a similar vein, the Corps of Engineers does not permit carry which means that if you are hiking while carrying and the trail goes across a dam, you could be arrested.

Per 36 CFR § 327.13, carry anywhere on Corps property is illegal unless written permission has been received from the District Commander. Firearms can be unloaded and secured in a vehicle while on Corps property.

[Yaworski]

BTW, you can carry in a post office if you are actively involved in hunting.

[waffles]

Originally Posted by 1075tech

Why should a "County Police Officer" be granted special permissions because of his choice of employment?

That same police officer would put the cuffs on you faster than you could say "muh 2nd amendment rights" if you did the same.

No kidding. Didn't arrest the guy, didn't cite him. Telling someone to leave when they're breaking the law you're there in part to enforce doesn't seem like a bad outcome here.

[Muley Gil]

A lot depends on the post office. When I was a LEO, I would go into the local post office and drop off mail, buy stamps, etc. The postal employees were always friendly, including the postmaster.

Years later, when working as an armed security office, working in a Federal office building, I would go into the local post office (different state) and all of the postal employees were very friendly, including the postmaster or postmistress.

[ken158]

I’m curious as to how this guy came across a postal inspector in the first place, especially in the lobby of a post office. Something going on here in the background we do not know. I know all 4 postal inspectors in my area and they cover half of two states.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by Yaworski

So you openly admit you violated federal law?

If you care to interpret it that way, I and every other LEO I knew at the time did exactly that.

My point was that we were required to carry a firearm at all times on the premise that we were never entirely “off duty”. It was understood that we could at any time come upon or be called to respond to a situation that required us to be armed.

In other words, we were never entirely off duty and carrying concealed between formal shifts was still part of our *official duties*. And to my knowledge none of the officers I worked with ever had a post master or other postal employee object. That was probably because they;
- had a reasonable degree of common sense;
- understood the congressional intent of the law; and
- did not want to create a threat to law enforcement officers, understanding why law enforcement officers who were known in the community might not want to go to the post office if it was known that they would be unarmed and an easier target.

—-

But let’s assume an over zealous prosecutor wants to go with your overly narrow read of the law, one that is clearly well in excess of the legislative intent.

As you no doubt are aware the average citizen not only cannot bring a handgun into the post office, they also cannot have one on postal property, so it cannot legally be left locked in the person’s vehicle. Under your narrow read of the law that would also apply to police officers.

For a police officer then, this would mean they can also not leave their side arm (as well as rifle or shot gun in a weapon rack pr truncated) in their patrol car or personal vehicle depending on whether they are on or off duty.

That means they would have to leave their guns at home while going to the post office, in violation of their terms of employment and specified “off duty” responsibility to carry a sidearm as a condition of employment and an official duty.

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by ken158

I’m curious as to how this guy came across a postal inspector in the first place, especially in the lobby of a post office. Something going on here in the background we do not know. I know all 4 postal inspectors in my area and they cover half of two states.

Postal Inspectors can enter a facility from the outside or inside. The older buildings have elevated "catwalks" for the purpose of spying on employees. Inspectors probably refer to that as "keeping watch". Newer facilities are outfitted with cameras and a control room where an Inspector can sit and watch or review video. Such is part of their job.

[ColbyBruce]

It is legal to mail guns, so as packages firearms can be on postal premises.

However, there was an incident at the Crown Road facility in metro Atlanta back in the early nineties where a postal employee who was also a part-time LEO was arrested for having firearms in his parked car. He was terminated. I do not know what agency initiated the arrest (USPS Inspection Service, Atlanta PD, county SO, etc.) but it did seem to be due to a supervisor/employee conflict.

[Muss Muggins]

Just so I get my week with a tank . . .

Originally Posted by JDinAZ

An interesting angle to all these unconstitutional restrictions on “gov property”

Gov property is paid for and maintains by Public Funds

Public Funds sourced from all of our pockets

Would that not create a Nexus, for all Americans to actually be partial owners of said “gov property” based on said property being paid for by all Americans

Therefore Americans cannot be denied the ability to carry on “gov property” due to the Nexus of funds that creates the partial or co-op ownership

[Piwo]

About 20 years ago we had to return a pile of SIG handguns to the company. We were returning test samples from a departmental evaluation. For some reason SIG wanted them shipped USPS. We brought them into the post office, in shipping boxes, on a couple of 2-wheeler carts. 6 or 7 of us were armed to the teeth in our polo shirts and tan shorts, our range wear. No one batted an eye. Oddly, only one old timer there knew how to do the paperwork. He took care of us, though.
FWIW

[Chuck24]

Originally Posted by ken158

I’m curious as to how this guy came across a postal inspector in the first place, especially in the lobby of a post office. Something going on here in the background we do not know. I know all 4 postal inspectors in my area and they cover half of two states.

The Postal Inspectors in my area were domiciled in the office I worked in and their offices could be accessed through the lobby. I would see several every day.

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

Postal Inspectors can enter a facility from the outside or inside. The older buildings have elevated "catwalks" for the purpose of spying on employees.

Years ago, I worked in a building that had been a post office. What had been the sorting area was now our electronics lab. One day, one of our techs told me to follow him and took me to a little door that led to a set of stairs that took up to a hidden area to overlook the lab. He explained that he had been a postal inspector when he was young and how guys would lurk up there and watch postal workers for theft or lollygagging.

[BSA1]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

No. I have witnessed a postal inspector run a county police officer out of a lobby, explaining that checking one’s PO Box was not part of official duty and the officer was prohibited from entering the place armed.

Hummm,

Was the Postal Facility located in the same county as the Officer was sworn in as a leo?

The County Officer has enforcement responsibility for the entire county which the Postal Facility is located within.

Does the County Officer still have law enforcement authority when off duty?

Yet the Post Office (Federal Property) is not part of the County and is immune from all county laws including building and zoning codes?

So carrying the logic though the Postal Inspector does not have law enforcement responsibility when he steps off of the Post Office property meaning he doesn’t have any more right than a citizen for carrying a firearm in public. If the State requires a conceal carry permit than he would have to one issued by the State to be legal.

So either the Postal Inspector needs to have his authority better explained to him or he is full of sheep dip.

[sigp220.45]

Folks do love to get all het up about the post office.

Unless you are carrying a gun with the intent to commit another crime, the law you are afoul of is to be found here:

39 CFR SS 232.1 - Conduct on postal property. | CFR | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

Its not even a misdemeanor. Max penalty is 30 days. Same as if you are intoxicated or “soliciting alms”.

This rule applies to the parking lot too, btw.

My lovely purple haired daughter once carried her NAA .22 Magnum into a federal building. She forgot it was in her purse. Ol’ Dad paid a modest fine, they gave us the gun back, and she has no criminal record. They called it forfeiture of a civil fine.

Of course, its much more amusing to read all the doom and gloom from the Junior G-Men, so please carry on.

PS - Postal Inspectors are federal agents and may carry anywhere in the US.

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by BSA1

So carrying the logic though the Postal Inspector does not have law enforcement responsibility when he steps off of the Post Office property meaning he doesn’t have any more right than a citizen for carrying a firearm in public.

He may not have the responsibility but he does have the authority. and most, if not all states, exempt federal agents from permitting.

[Muss Muggins]

Over the years, I dealt with various postal inspectors, mostly for delivery persons dumping junk mail in the Diversion Channel and rural Postmasters stealing from their responsibility drawer. Never saw anybody in the federal courthouse for carrying a gun on USPS property, even on the petty offense docket.

We had space in the US Court and Custom House in St. Louis before it was replaced by the Thomas F. Eagleton US Courthouse. It formerly housed a Post Office on the ground floor. When our agency needed more space, we got the “mezzanine,” where the postal inspector observation deck was. The viewing ports looked like the ports on armored cars. Definitely an interesting setup . . .

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

We had space in the US Court and Custom House in St. Louis before it was replaced by the Thomas F. Eagleton US Courthouse. It formerly housed a Post Office on the ground floor. When our agency needed more space, we got the “mezzanine,” where the postal inspector observation deck was. The viewing ports looked like the ports on armored cars. Definitely an interesting setup . . .

I worked a long case with a Postal Inspector and we got to be buddies. He said over half of the thefts he worked were internal deals. That where I learned to never mail cards in the brightly colored envelopes they usually come with. If an employee yoinks enough of those some will have cash and gifts cards in ‘em.

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Over the years, I dealt with various postal inspectors, mostly for delivery persons dumping junk mail in the Diversion Channel and rural Postmasters stealing from their responsibility drawer. Never saw anybody in the federal courthouse for carrying a gun on USPS property, even on the petty offense docket.

We had space in the US Court and Custom House in St. Louis before it was replaced by the Thomas F. Eagleton US Courthouse. It formerly housed a Post Office on the ground floor. When our agency needed more space, we got the “mezzanine,” where the postal inspector observation deck was. The viewing ports looked like the ports on armored cars. Definitely an interesting setup . . .

In 1998 or 1999 a rural carrier in Stone Mountain, GA got flustered with his high volume of mail and pulled behind a church and threw all of his remaining mail into a dumpster. Hard plastic trays and all. He returned to the office on time with NO equipment. This was on the third of the month. When everybody but him knew Federal checks would be in the mail. Several hundred people called the Post Office looking for their checks and asking why their outgoing mail had not been picked up. That moron went out the doors in handcuffs the next morning. The mail was retrieved and delivered.

The trays would of looked like this, but grey in color.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

No. I have witnessed a postal inspector run a county police officer out of a lobby, explaining that checking one’s PO Box was not part of official duty and the officer was prohibited from entering the place armed.

That is a good way to guarantee that the local gendarmes will be slow to respond if you need help or back up. As I mentioned above, I worked security in a Federal building. My closest Federal back-up was 75 miles away, so I always tried to be on good terms with the PD, the SO and the state po-leece.

I worked several burglaries at our post office. Two of them involved a small juvenile getting into the package chute. The postmaster didn't ask us to leave our sidearms outside.

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

That is a good way to guarantee that the local gendarmes will be slow to respond if you need help or back up. As I mentioned above, I worked security in a Federal building. My closest Federal back-up was 75 miles away, so I always tried to be on good terms with the PD, the SO and the state po-leece.

I worked several burglaries at our post office. Two of them involved a small juvenile getting into the package chute. The postmaster didn't ask us to leave our sidearms outside.

The officer looked like a bum and responded with sign language when confronted by the Inspector.

The kid in the package drop was common all over. It happened so often in Decatur, GA that a cage was fashioned around the drop on the inside. Several kids were caught. Tiny kids that couldn’t talk. They were also too short to set off the motion detectors.

[Muss Muggins]

I don't know of any LEO in today's climate that would be slow to respond to a call for help from another officer. Even a contract security guard . . .

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

That is a good way to guarantee that the local gendarmes will be slow to respond if you need help or back up. As I mentioned above, I worked security in a Federal building.

[BSA1]

Originally Posted by Yaworski

He may not have the responsibility but he does have the authority. and most, if not all states, exempt federal agents from permitting.

Be interesting to find out huh?

If that happened to me I would carefully research State law. But I am inclined that the Sheriff talking to the Agent’s boss would clear up any misunderstandings quickly.

[SMSgt]

My son is a federal agent and carries in every state and every airline. He needs approval from neither.

[326MOD10]

Originally Posted by SAFireman

Do you guys think that we will see a change to the policy of the US Postal service to allow lawful carry by licensee on the premises, or inside the buildings?

I would suspect that they would make a policy similar to the US Parks, where they followed (mirrored?) local CCW laws.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming:

Highly unlikely, as the first poster said.

That would open up a slippery slope of all the other Government buildings, Federal, State, local, etc......

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by SMSgt

My son is a federal agent and carries in every state and every airline. He needs approval from neither.

Every time I carried on a commercial flight, I had to meet the pilot. He/she had final say . . .

[Muss Muggins]

I meant to bring this up earlier. The Post Office isn't supported by tax money.

Originally Posted by JDinAZ

An interesting angle to all these unconstitutional restrictions on “gov property”

Gov property is paid for and maintains by Public Funds

Public Funds sourced from all of our pockets

Would that not create a Nexus, for all Americans to actually be partial owners of said “gov property” based on said property being paid for by all Americans

Therefore Americans cannot be denied the ability to carry on “gov property” due to the Nexus of funds that creates the partial or co-op ownership

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I meant to bring this up earlier. The Post Office isn't supported by tax money.

LOL!! More people believe in Bigfoot than believe in your true statement.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

LOL!! More people believe in Bigfoot than believe in your true statement.

I'm guessing I probably shouldn't dive into the fact that the vast majority of physical post offices, especially rural areas, are actually leased from private developers, and the leases may or may not include control of adjoining parking . . .

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I'm guessing I probably shouldn't dive into the fact that the vast majority of physical post offices, especially rural areas, are actually leased from private developers, and the leases may or may not include control of adjoining parking . . .

OMG, you are on a roll today!! Please, what other absurd thoughts do you have today?

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I meant to bring this up earlier. The Post Office isn't supported by tax money.

If this is true, then it isn't a government building, but a private business. If that is the case, they can't restrict you from carrying firearms in some states. They can ask you to leave and if not you can be charged with trespassing.

The Federal Government cannot own anything that isn't supported by taxes.

Rosewood

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

OMG, you are on a roll today!! Please, what other absurd thoughts do you have today?

This morning, before everyone else got up, I changed the name of the home WiFi to “No Connections Are Available.”

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by rosewood

The Federal Government cannot own anything that isn't supported by taxes.

Citation ?

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I'm guessing I probably shouldn't dive into the fact that the vast majority of physical post offices, especially rural areas, are actually leased from private developers, and the leases may or may not include control of adjoining parking . . .

This was discussed at great length on another gun forum. As I recall, if the post office was standalone, the parking lot is considered part of the post office. However, if the post office is part of a strip mall, mall, or in a store, the parking lot is not part of the post office.

[Piwo]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

I don't know of any LEO in today's climate that would be slow to respond to a call for help from another officer. Even a contract security guard . . .

I second that...In my time, I don't care if you were just desecrating a police uniform in the street, we all went. Let alone actually harming an officer, Federal, State, Local or private.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by rosewood

If this is true, then it isn't a government building, but a private business. If that is the case, they can't restrict you from carrying firearms in some states. They can ask you to leave and if not you can be charged with trespassing.

The Federal Government cannot own anything that isn't supported by taxes.

Rosewood

Most government office space has been leased since the Reagan era. It was one of those weird moments where the powers that be tried to justify that it was cheaper to sell off government office space and then lease it back. It did allow for some quick cash, and then more importantly allowed political chronys to buy up the space and make millions leasing it back to the occupants.

Potomac Center Plaza has been leased by the government since its construction in 2003, and was leased despite not meeting the post 9-11 set back requirements. The fact that VP at the time Dick Cheney was among the investors I am sure had nothing to do with it. <wink, wink, nudge nudge>

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has leased the north tower of Potomac Center plaza since 2010. They’ll differ with if you on their right at arrest and charge you if you try to walk in there with a weapon.

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by BB57

Most government office space has been leased since the Reagan era. It was one of those weird moments where the powers that be tried to justify that it was cheaper to sell off government office space and then lease it back. It did allow for some quick cash, and then more importantly allowed political chronys to buy up the space and make millions leasing it back to the occupants.

Potomac Center Plaza has been leased by the government since its construction in 2003, and was leased despite not meeting the post 9-11 set back requirements. The fact that VP at the time Dick Cheney was among the investors I am sure had nothing to do with it. <wink, wink, nudge nudge>

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has leased the north tower of Potomac Center plaza since 2010. They’ll differ with if you on their right at arrest and charge you if you try to walk in there with a weapon.

I see your point, but they are still Government paid employees and the government is using tax dollars to lease those buildings. If the Post Office is self sustaining and doesn't use tax dollars, in my mind it is a different situation. The employees are technically not government employees if they are not being paid by tax dollars.

Rosewood

[Muss Muggins]

You’re firmly convinced of this, and it’s clear this discussion isn’t going to change your thoughts. All I can say is “Call your first witness . . . “

Originally Posted by rosewood

I see your point, but they are still Government paid employees and the government is using tax dollars to lease those buildings. If the Post Office is self sustaining and doesn't use tax dollars, in my mind it is a different situation. The employees are technically not government employees if they are not being paid by tax dollars.

Rosewood

[LenS]

I always wondered about local officers in uniform carrying in a USPO.


When I lived in MA, our local USPO had a sign on the door asking anyone who heard the alarm go off or saw something out of sorts to call the local PD. They are the "first responders" to anything local as postal inspectors could be many miles/hours away.


Also, since the USPS prohibition of firearms is a federal regulation/law, local/state LE can not enforce it. So if one would be arrested, it would have to be by a federal agent, not a local/state LEO.

[bwade]

Any USPS employee to include a Postal Inspector would have to be completely stupid to "enforce" Federal law to have a uniformed LE removed or charged from the public USPS spaces. With all the homeless, drunks, and thieves that need to see a police presence in the Post Office to even think about behaving, it would be so counterproductive to run off the officers... Anyone with common sense would welcome the officers and hope there is a sense of omnipresence with them showing up occasionally.

[John_M52]

Even LEOSA does not authorize you to carry in a Post Office (Gov't Building, etc) so I think it's unlikely that private citizens will be granted that ability.

I went into a large IRS office once, unarmed, but the security guard saw my badge in the x-ray and insisted on seeing the badge himself before letting me in the building. Still wondering what that was about.