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Has anyone seen any actual reports of Lehigh Defense bullets actually being used on humans in a self defense shooting, with any commentary on the wound channel and the effectiveness of the projectile? I know that on ballistic gel blocks, the bullets receive positive reviews, but real life reports trump gel block tests!

Thank you for your observations!

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Judge control not gun control!

In "real life"?

They are expensive "magic bullets" along with the G2 RIP bullets

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Still Running Against the Wind

That's so radical, I think it's going to take a long time to get any data AT ALL on using it for defense or even LEO work..

They are certainly effective, to the point of overkill and over penetration. Perhaps a caliber you used to kill deer can now be used to kill bigger animals.

As far as SD goes, those things are pretty brutal and again the risk of over penetration is great. I wouldn't use them for that.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

If you really want that type of information your best course of action might be to contact the company and ask. Manufacturers generally like to track and record information of significance, related to products they make.

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Stay protected my friends.

I saw a thread on another popular forum(rhymes with smockchock), around a year ago, about a defensive use with Xtreme Penetrator.

My experiments with Xtreme Defense have been promising, especially with their 380.

.380 Caliber - Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense, Xtreme Penetrator & Federal HST - YouTube

Simple answer NO. most data comes from police shootings and they don't use that ammo. Outside of that this round is too new for any kind of real data. A one time use doesn't prove or disprove anything

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I have been using Lehigh Extreme Defense for quite some time in my EDC. Contrary to a post above it does not overpanetrate. It is the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator that is not suitable for SD because it will overpenetrate. I carry 380. I have seen every YouTube video about the Lehigh Ammo. In Lehigh produced video they mention the Penetrator was not designed for SD, but was intended for outdoor enthusiasts who camp and hike in areas with large and dangerous animals.

As far as I can determine the various calibers of Extreme Defense penetrate between 13 and 16 inches, keeping them within FBI preferences.

We are unlikely to ever get a report on the damage the bullet does when striking a human. But we can make realistic assumptions based upon gel test. In gel the wound channel created beats hollow points hands down. It’s penetration is consistent through barrier and barreirless. Unlike HP it will not clog up from remnants of denim, wood, metal. Also, if it leaves a greater wound channel in Gel, it is going to do that in a person. That to me is enough to carry it. HP bullets are fickle depending upon barriers, and they frequently do not flower our of 380 pocket pistols with short barrels. When that happens the result is an HP acting like FMJ - overpenetration.

Yes, it is pricey, but what is a superb defensive cartridge worth? It is worth more if it is better, and Extreme Defense is better.

But they will cover up any bad info or just not list it .. Money Talks and no bad info will be released !!!!

Independent testing is always a better barometer !!!

Do yourself a favor and Google "Dr. Roberts ammo list" and choose from the rounds he recommends.

Roberts is an authority. However, he has not seen the damage a hydraulic round can do to a human body. His evaluations are pre hydraulic ammo. That means any evaluation has to be based upon the relative performance of rounds in bare gel and gel that is behind a variety of barriers.

Things change. The best is not the best forever.

I would rather carry pistol ammo that is bonded and proven in actual shootings because the pistol calibers are already under powered.

I am not sure what “bonded and proven” means. Bonded implies surety, and I don’t think there is any surety from bullet manufacturers. Proven to do what? Put a hole in someone? Any bullet powered by the right power will do that.

If only field action proven technology was reliable, then we would still be riding horses.

The machine in the doctor's office that busts up kidney stones delivers more hydrostatic shock then a bullet. Don't see too many people dying from that!

If HS was a thing no one would be surviving rifle shots

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Don’t see anyone dying from contacting the terminals of a 9v battery, but don’t try it on 220 volts coming into your house.

Results are relative to the amount of power. The kidney stone buster was designed to be low power compared to a bullet.

Bonded keeps separation from happening. Proven means used on the street. Clearly you are not up to speed on bullet tech and testing or you would not be defending novelty ammo like Lehigh.

Thank you for uninformed criticism. Clearly you are not keeping up to date because if you did you would not call the ammo a novelty. Try research before you criticize that which you are skeptical about.

Oh, and if you can show me that you are an authority on ammo, I might listen to you.

Can you point to some citations and proof that these novelty bullets work on the street against actual humans or has this just become a pissing match for your opinion?

I know my carry bullet the Speer gold dot has not only gone through extensive fbi testing but performs well on the street when placed where it needs to be hence why it is used by the nations largest police force. There are many data points and actual events that can prove that. No opinion here.

We could argue forever. No point. I stick with my choice and you will stick with yours. Oh, and don’t be seeing me as just trying to advance my opinion because if I am then you are too.

I am done in this thread.

Ya know.....I just got finished looking at pictures of a guy shot through the left eye with .380 ball ammo. Wasn't much left of the back of his skull. Don't know what more a Lehigh Defense bullet would have done.........

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Forum consigliere

Aaaand we're done

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I was just pointing out that PROVEN bullets are what I use in my self defense weapons. Not novelty and new fangled bullets.

HST, GOLD DOT, RANGER, etc.

Not gimmick ammo:

Think twice about Lehigh “Extreme Penetrator

Except his analyses are not based solely on gel results, but also feedback from actual shootings and postmortems.

Until Lehigh and similar rounds can establish an effective track record in actual shootings, and they might prove effective in time, I'll consider them novelty rounds and spend my money on proven performers. Everyone is free to make their own choices.

+1, but I'm going to assume the OP is referencing the Lehigh .380 ammunition since that seems to be the caliber that is most often associated with it and Dr. Roberts(AKA DocGKR) doesn't have a recommended list for .380 ACP as far as I know. Roberts has never been much of a fan of the .380 and has recommended simply using FMJ ammo in prior articles, but here's a statement by him I came across in regards to the Lehigh.

"The Lehigh is not a new projectile design--it is similar to previous stuff, like the old Devel projectiles from back in the late 1980's. It does seem to offer better than typical performance for a .380, but then that is not saying much. Remember, friends don't let friends carry .380's..."

That's a good point. I'm on the fence regarding .380ACP, both in terms of the caliber in general and the FMJ/JHP debate.

I think that penetration has long been a problem for .380 ammo, especially after passing through barriers like clothing. This may be where the Lehigh bullet would be beneficial. I don't carry a .380, but my wife does. I'm not favorably impressed with Dr. Robert's statement. It may be that his huge following has allowed his ego to intrude upon his legitimate studies.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Mas Ayoob once said the following in regards to .380 ACP..."Some experts will say it's barely adequate, and others will say it's barely inadequate." If you conducted a poll or gathered together their published statements on the topic, I imagine the majority would have the latter opinion.

In addition to the marginal performance of .380 ammunition, there are also concerns of reliability as .380's tend to be finicky.

Just my opinion, but the LAST thing I would worry about with a .380 is overpenetration. (Also true for .38 spl, any 32 (maybe not the magnums) or 22.) I would wonder about velocity at muzzle, and at 25 feet, and if 'wonderammo' would expand ( my bet is on NO) so ANY solid seems a better option...

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Certified Curmudgeon

That I’d the point of the Extreme Defense ammo for 380. It has a 65g bullet and a charge that achieves between 900 and 1000 FPS out of my 2.9 inch barrel. That is fast for a short barrel. The speed makes a difference in effectiveness. The grooves in the bullet increase rpm speed rate and when the bullet hits it is like a drill bit. But in 380 the penetration rarely goes over 14 inches even in bare gelatin. It is a bullet designed for self defense without the over penetration of heavier bullet ball ammo.

That idea of spinning the bullet as it leaves the muzzle sure sounds revolutionary!

We all better hope that whatever we shoot from a grooved barrel spins. My point was intended to point out the flutes in the bullet reduce mass and and therefore increase velocity, which in turns retards the slowing of the rpm.

Paul Harrell just put out a video about "Is the .32 acp enough." At the end of the video, he compares the .32 acp to .380 Gold Dot JHP's shot from a Ruger LCP II into his "meat target."

The .380 GD's performed reasonably well. Not as good as the 9mm JHP's he's tested prevously, but pretty good.

The .380 test starts at 13:49 in this video...

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Vegan by proxy.

He has done a lot of good videos. I saw the one you referred to. I like his test targets of meat and ribs and other materials to simulate soft organs. He is one of the few on YouTube that I feel is well qualified to teach. What he says always makes sense.

He isn't a fan of this design.

Myself, I have Xtreme Defense loaded as my second through seventh round. Hopefully I'll never discover how effective they actually are.

My tests in bare gelatin got great penetration but the wound channels were much smaller than advertised. The company maintains they work best through water-based gelatin. I can't rightly say.

Ayoob has done a lot as an expert witness in trials from what I gather, but other than that, how does that qualify him as an expert on the Lehigh .380 bullet? I've seen videos of the .380 Lehigh bullet and its ability to penetrate barriers. It seems to do a good job. That was my point. They feed reliably through my wife's pistol, as do fmj ammo.

The link below leads to a simple report on the 380 Extreme Defense Ammo. Take notice to the penetration depth and cut away of the gel wound channel. It substantiates what I wrote abou the bullet.

All these special bullets in these small calibers are just for selling to folks.

When I stop and think about it...
Would I use that type of cartridge/bullet combination on a 150 lb deer or a similar weight wild hog???

That would be as close to a meth tweeker as I might run in to.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

IIRC, there are some YouTube videos of people taking down feral hogs with .380 JHP's.

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Vegan by proxy.

I'll try and find that vid..........
(My father killed a black bear with a 22 rifle...one time too. I wouldn't risk it though and I too have killed a couple of bears my own self.)

Of course the 9mm short would be my last choice for anything.
And, I say that from personal experience.
Oh, except for training women and children in the use of a semi-automatic pistol with low recoil.

Trying to soup-up the 380 to low end 9mm Parabellum performance, is aliken to
say the 22 short high speed to the 22 long rifle.

I personally hold the safety of my family and myself in higher regard that to trust
to chance the best performance of the 9mm kurz.

But, that's just me and my half century of shooting experiences talkin here....

It's just an old man thing I guess.

When I start shooting, I expect to see **** start fallin'.


On the up side,
I quess that why ammunition companies make all sorts of cartridges
to give all of us something to opine on.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

What makes someone an expert on a given subject is largely a matter of opinion. I think Massad Ayoob's resume speaks for itself as does Dr. Gary Roberts. Their reputations are well deserved from my perspective, but apparently you disagree. I think the quote I previously posted from Dr. Roberts was spot on.

I choose to carry it, mainly because my I've taken the time to perform my own tests. My tests with jhps, in .380 have been pretty disappointing.


Have I made the wrong choice? Possibly. I'm hopeful that it will never be put to the test.

If you are involved in 100 incidents (threats), the odds are that you will experience 2 incidents in which the caliber you carry MAY be important. And those would be the 2 "determined" attackers - you know...the much ballyhooed 300LB meth heads.
Think you'll be involved in 100 incidents???

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Stay protected my friends.

While we are unlikely to be involved in a single incident, if an actual incident involves the “determined attacker,” the most important two factors in my opinion are accuracy first and bullet efficiency second.

During my fourth tour in Nam I was in battalion recon. We were to to scout on long range recon patrols. Sometimes we had to eliminate a sentry without giving away our presence. We had one Marine on each team that was an expert with Marine armorer customized scoped and suppressed Ruger Standard (22LR). One shot to the head and the biggest man would fall dead or totally disabled in all senses. Accuracy with a small bullet is lethal.

My modest efforts at training, coupled with my Bodyguard .380, don't bode well for accuracy...regardless of caliber or ammunition.

Accuracy with a 380 pocket pistol will never equal that of a compact or full size pistol. That is why the best defensive load is very important. As a pocket pistol carrier I am acutely aware of that. That is why I did hours of research before deciding on Extreme Defense ammoammo I am willing to trust my life on.

I wasn't there, but I heard about it.....

How those 38s didn't work all that well against those
filipino muslim warriors in that dust-up in the Philippines.

In those .355-.357 diameter bullets, they need weight
and lots of velocity to be much good in my book.

To those that like the 380 acp, good for them...It's much better than going to fisticuffs.

It jest don't fit my pistol.




*Back in the ol days, some notched the nose of those round nose
lead bullets for perceived enhanced performance too.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

True, and that is what made 1911 the military pistol for decades. But there is plenty of evidence that the 9mm is more than adequate for SD with the proper ammo. For me the 380 acceptable with my above stated choice of ammo.

I don't think that the comparison between Kidney stone blasting from a source outside the body is anything like a projectile moving at high speed THROUGH the body. I never saw a kidney blaster leave any kind of cavity since they are designed to break up hard objects.

I've seen pistol bullets designed to optimize hydrostatic shock but I think that they are bogus because of the low speed of pistol rounds doesn't produce shock strong enough to tear out a cavity, except locally near the bullet path. Possibly a longer barreled magnum could begin to introduce permanent damage from shock, but those aren't common SD weapons.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

You won't likely be proactively sniping with a pistol in a civilian self-defense scenario and expecting extremely precise hits on a moving target that is either shooting at you or is trying to close-in with a contact weapon just isn't very realistic.

There are multiple videos available on YouTube demonstrating what it can take to incapacitate a determined attacker. The footage of the shooting of MMA fighter Amokrane Sabet immediately comes to mind. The St.Cloud mall shooting is another. There are plenty more and I'd share them here, but the moderators have decided they are too graphic. The Lance Thomas incidents also demonstrate that a high number of rounds can be needed against determined attackers.

There are many different ways to view the topic of what makes for an adequate carry pistol, but I think the late Todd Green makes some very valid points here pistol-training.com >> Blog Archive >> A Capacity to Love that I think deserves some consideration.

The 9mm Luger with ball is a penetrating son of a gun for sure.

The 9mm is easier for lots of folks to shoot accurately,
when using the 9, I like the +P+ rounds.

The 380acp in any loading, just doesn't instill any confidence of being a man stopper for me.

But, since I can carry most anything I like, I like 4"-5" barrels and
a bullet 200 grains or heavier in +P for personal carry.

I was school by ol Lawmen and WW-2 Combat Veterans with their personal experiences in arms.

It's jest a mind over matter thing,
I don't mind carrying a heavy full size pistol, so it don't matter much.

What it really boils down to, is confidence.
The knowledge and personal confidence that whatever caliber or chambering one chooses,
knowing that the combination of skill, firearm and ammunition one has chosen will suffice.

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As ol Roark says, "Use Enough Gun".....I, personally, never want to be left wanting for more.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"