Because to some, controlling physical access to a school is "crazy", but believing that, through some miracle of ******* physics, people with guns, MILES away can somehow address a threat at an unsecured location faster than people with guns INSIDE the location, is "sane".

Apparently a badge confers upon the wearer the ability to exceed the speed of light... or go back in time over and over until they get it right... if they FEEL like it. Apparently the Broward County Sheriff's Department didn't feel like it.

Note: "q uantum" is apparently a forbidden term...

Faster because the way a fire alarm works is both actively and passively. Smoke, sprinklers going off, drops in water pressure etc. the alarm goes off initiating evacuation and at the same time alerting first responders. Or in the event the alarm pull station is used, same things happen. Alarm goes off and fire department is alerted.

Currently in most all systems when there is an intruder takes multiple steps by people to initiate a response on a PA system, then call 911. instead of an alarm system that can detect gunshots or be set off in a hallway like a fire alarm pull station and calls all the services needed and telling them where the zone of threat is located or at a minimum where the alarm initiated from.

While this still takes time for the police to get there, it would take significant time away from the shooter, getting people evacuated and in safer locations faster. Many situations it takes considerable amount of time before the lockdown process is even started and 911 is called because of how the current process is done. Shorten this time and you save lives.

It doesn’t make sense how the process is done, and this is an easy change that can be done with no political debate about guns that the media loves. Regardless if teachers are armed or not or if we create school response teams or station a group of marines at each school changing how lockdowns are done needs to be done to improve the time for people to get to safety and responders to get to the scene.

No, just the opposite. I’m sure many do carry and several have shown that they are willing to die defending the very same kids they teach even when they aren’t armed.

However, that is a choice not a policy or solution for everyone that I see as viable resolution to the problem. Dealing with improving the school culture and response to mental health, better structures, alarm systems and more emphasis on responding quickly and efficiently is something all schools and teachers can do regardless of their skill with a gun or stance on the 2nd amendment.

Personally would I want to be armed. Yes, I said that before. What about schools where they don’t have anyone willing to do that, or put in the extra time to train etc.. most of the work they do is about educating kids not personal defense or responding to a threat.

What I’m referring to is a way that all schools and businesses can become safer that will drastically improve what we currently see.

I forgot where every single sworn officer of that organization stood outside the school, and then told me I didn't need a gun.

See? Sort of my point. Five guys in one of the nation's largest sheriff's departments drop the ball, and you're painting them all with the same brush.

I guess...
20180215_081457 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

If teachers are armed, since they are under stress most of time, what is to prevent one of them from going POSTAL?

Putting armed former service men as armed guards, what is to prevent one of them or more having PTSD attack on duty?

At the time of a background check, everything may seem hunky dory.

Why is the thinking that any, or if any future mass shooting is going to take place INSIDE the school building?

Just thinking out loud.


WuzzFuzz

How MUCH time?

Any police car that can cover a MILE or MORE in the time it takes to draw and fire is going to look like a London police call box.

Of course that presumes that anybody bothers to DO anything when they get there.

EVERYBODY from the Broward County Sheriff's Department who showed up stayed outside. The Coral Springs cops SAID so.

Then their despicable "leader" went on CNN to verbally abuse Dana Loesch in a craven attempt to divert attention from loathsome cowardice and incompetence.

But hey, some people can defend literally ANYTHING if they like the people doing it. Look at the woman from Ohio State who defended the "car and knife" jihadi.

If cops are armed, since they are under stress most of the time, what is to prevent one of them from going POSTAL?

What about schools where they don't have anyone willing to put out a fire in a wastebasket with a fire extinguisher, or put in the extra time for fire drills, etc..

They're going to get killed while somebody gets to their location... assuming they actually do anything when they get there.

One of the things I specifically don’t like about “arming teachers” is the implementations I hear people talk about sound like they are basically, unofficially deputizing some teachers to to defend the school. Defending the school is a public safety function, not a teachers job.

If we’re going drop the gun free zone designation and allow legal ccw in schools, then teachers with ccw permits should have the same rights to carry in the school as they would in any other permitted location.

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Vegan by proxy.

I have not found anyone saying the gov. should mandate arming teachers, only those that wish to carry. a family member stated to me that if i knew some of the teacher in the area high school i would not want them having a gun.... i stated that if they cant be trusted with a inanimate object then why should we trust them with our children

Great idea except South Florida monkey boy pulled the fire alarm. Created a target rich en ironment in seconds. It would be great to.be the savior with your 642 in the midst of "helter skelter" Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Well, let's jest say, we have a school with 2000 students with 200 facility and support staff.

Three or four uniformed officers stationed outside the school.

Five heavily armed SRT plainclothes officers stationed inside the school......

Sound silly??? Not any more so than half the post on this thread.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

How many LEO's would you estimate a town of 2,200 would have on duty during the daytime?

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Vegan by proxy.

Maybe 3, if that.

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NHI, 10-8.

^^^^^^^^^^

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Certified Curmudgeon

^^^
All that the budget will stand or less.


*
It's jest simple math and the dollars that the county fathers deem necessary to turn loose of.

.

As far as the number of armed LEOs or teachers, to place in schools...
Just depends on the powers that be and the value they
place on the lives of our children and others to be protected, I'd say.

But, ya know the scotus has ruled there is no constitutional duty for the police to protect any individual.

Also, it is a coming....

The tide that's coming, the dismal tide. A wave of the darkest evil, so dark and heinous that it cannot be comprehended by a mere mortal man.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Paul Sharp (Paul Sharp Defense):

You want to be the good guy with a gun? Then act like it. Train intensely, intelligently, and relentlessly.

"Senior Airman Andrew P. Brown, age 25, with the 92nd Air Force Security Police Squadron, was patrolling the base’s housing areas on a bicycle when he received an emergency call on his two-way radio. He pedaled a quarter-mile to the scene and, while still some 70 yards away, spotted Mellberg shooting at scores of panic-stricken people in the parking lot.

Brown ditched his bicycle and ordered the gunman to drop his weapon. When Mellberg turned and shot at him, Brown dropped into a combat crouch and returned fire with his 9mm Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol. He fired four rounds at Mellberg; two missed, one hit him in the shoulder and one struck him between the eyes, instantly ending his homicidal rampage. The drum magazine in Mellberg’s MAK-90 still held 19 rounds of ammunition."

Brown struggled with guilt for years after this event, not because he shot a murderer in the face. He struggled with guilt because he felt he should have done more, somehow PEDALED HIS BICYCLE FASTER to get there sooner and end that murderer before he hurt more people. Be like Brown. He trained off-duty. He bought an exact copy of his duty weapon so he could train with it on his own time to be proficient. He honored his oath. He was committed to being a peace keeper, and protecting his community.

NOTES:

70 yards
Killer had a RIFLE with a hi cap mag in .30 caliber
Killer shot at good guy
4 shots from kneeling
2 misses
2 hits
1 head shot
No more innocents killed once officer started shooting
No innocents hit by officer’s bullets
70 yards
Head shot

Willing. Prepared. Effective.

We are all human........

All it takes is dictation to training.....Keeping one's skill set in tune.

Austin TX... Cop Kills Active Shooter From 104 Yards – One Handed, While Holding Horses


[VIDEO] Cop Kills Active Shooter From 104 Yards – One Handed, While Holding Horses

Austin cop's sure shot stopped crazed gunman | Fox News


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Sounds good on the surface, but it's a false equivalency.

Plenty of people that are absolutely trustworthy with children, but I wouldn't want to shoot next to them at the range. Apples and oranges.

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Vegan by proxy.

That goes for any profession, including soldiers, and police. I had a university captain that thought it was funny to pull his gun, and point it at people. He eventually was not with the university, but then he managed to get a job as chief of police of a suburb.

This idiot somehow managed not once to end up in a position of supervising, but twice.

You sir are wrong on so many levels,......... but, keep thinking the way you do and this will continue.

When the state first issued the S&W Model 66 to the Troops...

Had a veteran trooper in the county where work, was showin off his fast draw,
shot a hole in a brand new radio console in dispatch. Just one time.....

He was driving a truck a short time later.


.

Common sense isn't all that common everywhere,
but we must carry on with what we've got to do with.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

We'll talking about arming teachers here..You've got a gun too don't you? Does that make you a possibility too?

Anyone with a gun can go postal for that matter. But again, we're discussing teachers having a firearm at school, or using retired military persons for security.


WuzzFuzz

That's my point.

If people are going to whine "X is going to go 'postal', X has to include cops.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

What gun would I carry?

Colt Commander in 45acp.

Shots would potentially be longer than the 7 yards most sd shooters focus on, practice for and select sd guns for.

The Colt offers speed and accuracy to 25 yards and effective shooting at even greater ranges.

Instead of actively arming teachers through CCW where they have to be relied upon to actually carry, why not have firearms accessible in strategically placed quick access safes? This way the firearm will always be ready, it will be a firearm of known stopping power instead of a smaller concealed weapon, and it will be safe from access by students and other unauthorized people. Those who are authorized access will receive training on a voluntary basis. I think there would be enough volunteers to keep all schools safe.

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

Thank you for your thoughts Angus (I'm not going to quote all of your posts, so consider this a response to all). First, I 100% agree we need a better training and support system to identify students that struggle first. That's the "pro-active" response - address the potentiality of an issue.

Second, we should absolutely fortify our schools (especially schools being built currently/in the future), but this will not prevent unauthorized access or a shooting. Sandyhook had automatic locking doors, cameras, etc. Unfortunately these did not even slow down the shooter. Additionally, there are a TON of times and places (before/after school, lunch time, etc.) where students are freely in the halls, parking lots, courtyards, etc. This makes getting to a "safe zone" ... costly.

Next, I'm not suggesting that teachers (at least most) search and clear the school. What I am suggesting is to get rid of "gun-free" zones and allow teachers that wish to defend themselves have the option. Similar to what we all suggest in a "bump in the night" scenario, teachers can gather students, lock the door, fortify the entry, and wait behind cover if the bad guy comes in. In our drills, the police identify themselves before opening doors, and some schools I've been in even have codes for "all-clear." If, in addition to this, a small group of educators want to voluntarily pay and maintain (through a well-developed/accredited process) for a more robust training experience, then LET them do it. The school/group could train for active shooters and know what to do if the worst happened. This might not be 100% successful, but as we've seen recently in Florida, neither is RSO training. None of this would cost the tax-payers money (and the money spent on hiring numerous guards, equipment, etc. could be better spent on #1 above). Removing "gun-free" zones, by itself, may be enough to deter most events, but I'd prefer a more proactive approach than just taking down signs.

Finally, once again, the argument that teachers should be helpless because they're in a school with kids is unsound. The same teachers can go to any other place where many people/kids gather and be allowed to carry. For better or worse, this is the reality of CCWing. If we believe a person can go to a crowded park, theater, mall, etc. with a gun, then a school is no different. Removing the right to do so, clearly has not been successful, and is intellectually and morally corrupt.

We need to stop projecting our values and fears on teachers as a whole group. Let individuals make legal and ethical choices about their self-defense rights.

Most schools process is during a intruder drill if a fire alarm is pulled you still shelter in place or only evacuate when you know for certain it's safe to do so.

One daughter teaches in a school where employees with a CCL are allowed to be armed. Daughter does not participate and that may be good. I'm not sure she has the temperament to use a gun. On the other hand, she is far better with a handgun than with a shotgun.

There are signs at her school advising that there are armed personnel on campus. I am more comfortable that she works in that environment than if she worked in a gun free zone.

I am a retired LE. My carry piece is one of several J-frames loaded with 110 grain hollow points, the old Treasury Dep't load. I would carry my old Colt pocket .380 with a hot light weight bullet, but another daughter has "appropriated" that flat, easy to conceal weapon.

For school, I would recommend a Glock or Sig 9mm with at least a 12-15 round capacity. Carry it in a belly pack or purse if you have trouble concealing it on your person.

One other comment. Old, tired LEO's are not the answer. Doubt me, go to your bank and observe them fall asleep.

Jack

The duty to protect falls on those who failed. The FBI failed, the Broward Co. SD failed to protect. The failure to report the behavior of the murderer that disqualified him from purchase.... or the established process of not arresting lawbreakers in the student body (thus lowering the statistical criminal numbers in Broward County, qualifiers for federal funding increases) which policy emanated from the executive branch of the previous federal administration. (Look it up, quislings)
Interestingly, the Garland, Texas assault was halted when an officer stood and shot two terrorists firing AKs. And.....there was an FBI agent with the terrorists, filming the whole thing. So very odd.

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Halfway and one more step

^^^ This, certainly.

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Halfway and one more step

I've read some posts here stating that teachers should not be forced to be "armed watchers" of their students. And I agree, no one should be forced into that. I reconize that it's not in everybody the hability to fight. But there are among teachers some that are both able and willing. I do aprove that the ones who are so willing be given the chance to provide an armed defense for them and those under their supervision.

Also read that is sbsurd to let 'ill prepared" armed folks go after armed intruders. I also agree with that. But that is not the point being discussed here either. No one is expecting (I hope) teachers should substitute highly trained SWAT teams clearing up an attacked Highschool. That would be ridiculous. To each his own I would say. But, having the possibilty to defend a area under attack with something else than courage, sacrifice and bare hands seems only to be logical

Almost everything else looks like discussing the sex of angels. Highly improductive and will take forever.

Taking forever is not a luxury you/we have.

Well, if this country and it's gov't place the same value on our citizen's
children that it places on it's other 'treasures' we wouldn't be in this mess.

Let's just pull some of that money spent on area 51, Ft Knox, those millions of dollars of
charitable contributions around the world and spend it here at home to protect our children.


.

By way of the 2005 scotus ruling that excuses law enforcement from protecting individuals,
and one of the largest sheriff departments fails to protect innocent lives in this last shooting incident in FL.

If they (schools) do not want to arm their teachers,
maybe they should look into hiring private contractors for security.


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__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

As more and more news reports come out......... it becomes clear that the whole Fla. shooting was well beyond a SNAFU ..... deep into ***** territory.

We as a Country/Goverment(s) after 19 years since Columbine haven't even learned that "Gun Free Zones" don't remain gun free and don't do anything to protect the people in them..

If we can't even recognize that simple lesson base on our own experiences over 19 years......... I can only conclude the inmates are running the asylum.

Oh wait we closed them all!!!!!!!

There are many good ideas presented in this discussion. Let's remember, teaches lost their lives protecting the students. Had they been armed would there be a different outcome?
Many teaches do not want to be armed and they should not be armed in that case. However, if a teacher has the proper training and willingness to accept the responsibility as a responder to a shooting situation that idea should be considered. I think proper training should be along the lines of a police academy course.
I hope the idea is not just going to be kicked around, but thoughtfully considered.

Back when I was an instructor for concealed carry classes....

The school superintendent and his wife, which is a teacher, including
other teachers and staff of the school system, along with bus drivers attended and passed.

As to wither they carry or not......It's just not talked about openly.


As to the woes of this society, we the people and our children
are reaping the whirlwind that our scotus and our politicians
have caused by sowing unto the wind. The great falling away
that has come about over the last half century or so.....

I'm afraid the chickens of our failed leaders have come home to roost.


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__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Let the school administrators decide! After all they are the ones responsible. When has the federal government ever been in a position to make personal decisions for ALL of its citizens. Get the decisions back to the people who can implement and take personal responsibility. If you are doubtful about the competence of the federal lawmaker/decision makers watch the senate hearings and decide for yourself.


king5.com | How one WA school district is already arming administrators

A federal program (PROMISE) caused an impediment to the federal system of establishing disqualifications in the background checks. Students in Broward county schools were regularly excused from arrest and resulting records for violations of the law. I don’t know if the Cruz fellow was one of those who was let slide, but it is clear that there were some 30 occasions where he was reported to and/or visited by law enforcement for erratic and violent behavior, yet still passed the background check for purchase of the weapon used in the murders.
The only way to stop an attack after it has begun is with violence, if the systems to prevent the attack are thwarted by bureaucracy, politics and money from failed federal programs. (Witness Fast and Furious).

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Halfway and one more step

I feel school administrators would be all too ready to keep their charges defenseless in a “gun free zone”. It’s a law enforcement and personal self defense issue, and should be done as per Constitution. Those teachers who choose to keep and bear should be allowed to do so, and the local law enforcement should take the job of protecting large groups of children as seriously as they take protecting crowds at football games and civil rights protest marches.

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Halfway and one more step

This is almost two heated for me to add my thoughts.
First Arm Teachers. I don't think it forcing Teachers to be guards but to give them the option to carry a weapon in a "gun free zone"

I don't think ANYONE has advocated arming all teachers or forcing teachers to carry guns. Once again the anti gun people and their lackeys-the media have exaggerated (or outright lied) the issue to stir up emotion.

Remember, gun control is not about guns its about CONTROL.

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Bill

This is being seriously over complicated by almost everyone. Simply repeal the 1990 law that made schools an automatic CPZ (criminal protection zones). Don't try and FORCE anyone employed by a school to either arm or disarm. Don't try and FORCE anyone who can legally carry to arm or disarm when entering school grounds.

Go back to teaching actual history, not this revisionist stuff (got censored, sorry). Remind students that at one time in many towns in this country the government building, school house and church were all the same building.

There is fairly good Troops to Teachers program. We have a generation of teachers entering our schools who not only have some combat zone experience but understand fairly restrictive rules of engagement. By all means stop denying them the right to self defense just because they are on school grounds.

Hello, as a retired Maritime law enforcement officer aka (coastie) and a Florida teacher (18yrs) I was amazed at the number of veterans in our school system. At our yearly start of the year teachers gathering, it was always asked for veterans to stand and be recognized it had to be at least 10% of the entire district. That’s a lot of potential security available if you’re called to task of volunteer CCW. I certainly would have (glock 19/23)
Semper paratus

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NRA Life Member
CPO

The Butler County, OH Sheriff put an offer on line to train 50 teachers. They got 300 requests in less than 24 hours. They've now had to close the course because of the overwhelming response.

Apparently, none of the "experts" told teachers that they don't want firearms training.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Orem UT PD offered free CFP training for teachers previously and again this week. State fees still apply. Our local school district has no restrictions on legal concealed carry.

I'm on the other side of the fence.

The considerations of responses range from total gun confiscation to doing nothing. When gun control is not applied many libs feel "do nothing" was the pick.


Time is a key issue. From the moment the first round is fired there are NOT minutes to take actions. The time to act already began.

If law enforcement is minutes away there is only 1 solution -- someone in the school must be armed. Who should that be?

There are a couple options to whom to arm.

- A LEO could be assigned to a school (Someone who will pursue the shooter not run the other way or wait)
- A retired veteran possibly a volunteer
- Armed teachers -- these must be selected based on desire to accept the additional responsibility and must be trained
- Alarm buttons in every classroom -- used to lock the doors, sound an alarm, force school lockdown and notify the local LE
- Some kind of 2-way verbal communications activated by the alarm button from the classroom to allow a teacher to notify what is know at that instant
- If there are multiple floors in a building there should be some defense on every floor
- A process map to guide everyone when a situation like this occurs -- every student should have at least brief knowledge and should be practiced like the old fire drills


There are always those who fear guns so much they claim to shake at the sight. Sorry -- you need to pick some defense or the kids die.

If the LE is minutes away you must move the defense to the premises -- arm those who want to carry on school grounds.

Yes, but that violates the narrative.

It's better to pretend that you don't need a gun because the police will protect you... except when they don't.

What are 17 lives compared to the narrative that nobody needs a gun?

Utah has been doing this for 15 years, Arkansas, Texas, Alabama, schools all over the country have been doing this for years. The lack of awareness is staggering and frightening at the same time.

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