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View Poll Results: Is 5+1 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot enough for home defense?
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Yes
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206 |
94.06% |
No
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13 |
5.94% |
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03-26-2018, 05:18 PM
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Personally, I'll take 9 of these but I think you should be fine with your setup...
Last edited by fdw; 03-26-2018 at 07:26 PM.
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03-26-2018, 05:20 PM
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CZ12ga. Coach gun hammer gun, 2 in barrels ,5 more number 4 Buck on Stock. Cock the hammers,Boom no problem! What am I worried about,'Not a darn thing!)
Last edited by jeeps; 03-26-2018 at 05:23 PM.
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03-26-2018, 05:34 PM
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Seems like some folks think 15 or 20 people will be invading their home at one time. I would think in a typical home invasion one or two would be more accurate and less than 20 ft. distance in most cases. I would think 5 rounds of 00 buck at that distance would be detrimental. Not having a criminal mind, I do think if I were in someone's home at 2am that I didn't belong in and I heard a shotgun being racked the mess he would have to clean up wouldn't be blood! Just my opinion, never been in a home invasion on either end.
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03-26-2018, 05:43 PM
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Google shotgun wounds and answer your own question.
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03-26-2018, 06:21 PM
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If a couple of rounds of buckshot and three slugs are insufficient, then you are either a lousy shot or facing hard targets. In the case of the latter, they've likely already killed your dogs, they are using their helmet mounted NVGs, and wearing body armor. You can expect they might disclose their positions by distinctive star shape muzzle flash of an M4 on full auto.
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03-26-2018, 06:32 PM
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Home Defense Shotgun: Is 5+1 Enough?
You don’t have to kill every single intruder to successfully defend yourself. If a six-round salvo of buckshot doesn’t scatter them to the wind, there’s probably more than one person can handle, and they’re either extremely determined or extremely stupid.
I used to have a collection of American Rifleman magazines going from the 1930s to 60s (sadly destroyed in a fire.)
One of the WWII issues covered military shotguns. A marine island-hopper had this to say about trench guns: “The only weapon more effective at breaking up the Japanese banzai charge is a water-cooled machine gun.”
Now that’s about as a dangerous a bunch of adversaries as anyone could ever face.
Last edited by jtcarm; 03-26-2018 at 06:35 PM.
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03-26-2018, 06:36 PM
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this is wayyyyyyyyy better than a bear thread
My shottie is a Remy that I have loadee with #3 steel shot (we're pretty much all steel shot down here-I have ducks in the freezer and if they find lead shot in my shottie,I am in a world of hurt). I think it holds 7( the shottie not the freezer). The armed gangs that usually break in to houses are up in Lafayette-down here we just get the single or pair of juveniles and they are pretty easy to take down. Of course I will have to shoot over my wife as she sleeps closest to the door-which might really piss her off
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03-26-2018, 06:41 PM
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I don't know for sure..................
I'm running 5 +1 of 3" number 1 buck / 12 ga......no worries here.
.
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03-26-2018, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
If you assume that every possible home defense scenario will be so clear-cut that you can open fire without warning, you are seriously limiting your tactical options.
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I live alone and always lock my door.
If you're in here without my permission, nothing gets more "clear-cut" than that.
If you didn't want to risk getting shot, you wouldn't have broken in and you had to work to do it.
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03-26-2018, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeintexas
Seems like some folks think 15 or 20 people will be invading their home at one time. I would think in a typical home invasion one or two would be more accurate and less than 20 ft. distance in most cases. I would think 5 rounds of 00 buck at that distance would be detrimental. Not having a criminal mind, I do think if I were in someone's home at 2am that I didn't belong in and I heard a shotgun being racked the mess he would have to clean up wouldn't be blood! Just my opinion, never been in a home invasion on either end.
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How much meth have you done today?
If the answer is "none", I don't think you know WHAT an intruder may do.
If you're breaking into occupied dwellings, and get ventilated, sucks to be you. Nobody owes you anything, especially anything that would put THEM in jeopardy.
If you're not too scared to break into my home to begin with, I'm not counting on you to be scared by a noise, especially in a drug addled state.
I see WAY too many stories of people being aggressive when they SEE a gun, never mind hear one.
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03-26-2018, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande
A home invasion/burglary aint exactly trench warfare.
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It's whatever it turns out to be.
Anytime you find yourself in a "fair fight", SOMEBODY screwed up, BADLY.
I'm not interested in a fair fight.
I'm interested in a decisive and entirely one-sided victory.
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03-26-2018, 07:46 PM
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If you're worried that a shotgun doesn't hold enough for your home invasion fantasy nightmare scenario:
*Invest in physical security.
*Friggin' move.
*Stop watching John Wick.
*Buy a carbine. And a plate carrier festooned with mag pouches.
*Stop dealing drugs.
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03-26-2018, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER
this is wayyyyyyyyy better than a bear thread
Of course I will have to shoot over my wife as she sleeps closest to the door-which might really piss her off
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Does she count as concealment or cover????????
Sorry..........................
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03-26-2018, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
I live alone.......
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Who would have thunk it!!!!!
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03-26-2018, 07:54 PM
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I am perfectly happy with 5+1 but it nice to be able to have a spare mag.
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03-26-2018, 07:54 PM
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Ima have to make do with 5+5. For this Hatsan Escort (think Benelli Nova but 1/2 price) "cruiser ready" is hammer down on empty chamber. The release is large but it's "extra" in the dark. Joe
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03-26-2018, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A
*Friggin' move.
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Where can I move where there's no POSSIBILITY of a home invasion by whatever number of violent felons choose to show up?
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03-26-2018, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
Where can I move where there's no POSSIBILITY of a home invasion by whatever number of violent felons choose to show up?
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Put fist size holes through the first 5 guys and I bet the rest of his friends don't want to continue with their plans.
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03-26-2018, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07
Google shotgun wounds and answer your own question.
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You are nothing but right. I have seen deer killed with buckshot and slugs but those photos are pretty grim. My take is you have a really big problem if you can't solve it with five round of buckshot.
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03-26-2018, 08:57 PM
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I think 5 rounds plus a 4 round backup is more than adequate for both home defense and carry....
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03-26-2018, 09:01 PM
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I like my set up, 5+1 should be more than enough under most any circumstance ...... but what if it isn't enough... I think my 14+1, 2.75" shells, or 1.5" shells, 22+1 gives me a little extra. A little more can't be bad. I'm no Rambo.. but what the heck ... I'll stick with my KSG.
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03-26-2018, 09:45 PM
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Our little town isn't really known for its home invasion problems. When you Google our community on-line and look under the heading "Crime Rate," it says "N/A." That pretty much sums it up.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen. It most certainly could. I'm just saying that the chances seem fairly minimal.
If I were to make a wild guess, I think one reason is because most potential home invaders would realize that behind the doors in our town probably live some old country boys, along with their sweet little Utah farm girl wives, who will be madder than a bunch of junkyard dogs if they get roused out of their sleep for something more serious than their cows or horses getting out in the middle of the night.
Second, most idiots who might have home invasion on their minds know that chances are everybody in any particular household above the age of ten probably has his or her own personal firearm and knows how to use it.
Of course, I have definitely not lulled myself into a false sense of security. Heck no! My Remington 870 holds five and sports a butt cuff shell holder that holds five more. All double-aught buck.
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Last edited by Mule Packer; 03-26-2018 at 11:01 PM.
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03-26-2018, 10:39 PM
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I feel 5 should be enough, probably you will have a handgun nearby you could grab too. You could put one of those stretch bandoliers that slide onto the shotgun stock to carry 5 more shells.
Hopefully none of this will ever be needed.
Steve W
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03-26-2018, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwheelzip
So, saying "cruiser ready" means it is setup for vehicle transport. Thanks, I hadn't heard that term before.
Is there something detrimental happening to a pump shotgun action by keeping it chambered, with the safety on? I've kept my home-defense Mossberg 500 in that condition since I bought it several years ago.
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In response to your question, I can think of two potential detriments in keeping your 500 chambered with safety on:
1. Someone gaining access to the shotgun without full training or familiarization, easily finds how to release the safety and touches the trigger.
2. For whatever reason you decide to transport your shotgun by automobile without unloading the chamber, then find yourself crosswise with the law or (worse) have an unintentional discharge in the vehicle, or while getting it out of the vehicle. Not very difficult to nudge that safety to the 'off' position, and it could happen from jostling around in the vehicle during transport. Not very difficult to snag the trigger on something while extracting the shotgun from the vehicle.
I like to have mine in a condition that requires the conscious acts of hitting the slide release, chambering a round, releasing the safety, then addressing the potential target. Only takes a few seconds to make it ready, especially with experience and practice, but far less likely for anyone else to put it in operating mode without knowing what they are doing.
That is my method. Yours may vary.
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03-26-2018, 11:09 PM
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There is not much point trying to convince someone he doesn’t need what he has, because he might. You can’t prove a negative.
But once you have a basic shotgun, you might want to ascertain that you’ve got functioning smoke and CO detectors, fire extinguishers, a good first aid kit, and maybe a disposable smoke hood ready, before you spend a lot of time fancying up your shotgun because you’re worried it might be insufficient.
Because there are ways to die in your house that are a lot more common and statistically likely than an attack by a group of homicidal intruders so large and fanatical they won’t be deterred by 5 loads of buckshot.
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03-26-2018, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchuck
MY old duty S&W riot gun next to the night stand is loaded and ready.
A Winchester 30-30 is next to it if I need to "reach out" further.
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I believe it is very important that any self defense gun in the house be kept OUT OF SIGHT.
Too much chance of someone entering the bedroom unnoticed will spot the loaded gun and shoot you with it in your sleep.
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03-26-2018, 11:50 PM
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How many shells? How many holes in walls do you want? If your going to miss that many time you're going to have some holes.
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03-27-2018, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
Where can I move where there's no POSSIBILITY of a home invasion by whatever number of violent felons choose to show up?
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There's nowhere you can move where there's no possibility of somebody popping you in the chest the second you open your door. Are you wearing a soft armor vest every day?
I bet you carry a gun. Do you also carry a blowout kit? IFAK in the car? After all, it's possible you might shoot yourself.
All self-defense questions are a matter of risk-versus-reward, from "Do I carry a pocket .380 or a compact double-stack 9?" to "Do I carry a spare magazine?" to the barely-possible.
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03-27-2018, 03:15 AM
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A couple things that might be very prudent to keep in mind ...
"Accidents" - really meaning a negligent discharge occurring during handling when under duress and surprise - can cause holes to appear where not wanted. Having spent so many years carrying an issued shotgun in "administrative condition", or "cruiser ready", at work makes it a habit I'd prefer to continue.
That means, in an 870, an empty chamber, hammer forward (trigger having been pressed on an empty chamber), safety off and a full magazine tube. All that has to happen to make the 870 ready-to-fire is chambering a shell.
The flip side to this is knowing how to safely handle and manipulate the 870 to unload the chamber without subsequently chambering another shell. This is drilled into cops who are taught the 870, and is also part of the manipulative skill needed for them to know how to safely empty the magazine tube at the end of the shift, meaning without having to unsafely pump the action and cycle the shells through the chamber.
When I was working as an instructor and teaching trainees, I kept several DUMMY 12GA shells (clearly marked as such) available to demonstrate these things to trainees, and have them demonstrate them to me. Practicing with live rounds is never a good idea. I still have some 12GA DUMMY shells, too.
Also, it's critical to know how buck and slugs (or any other shotgun load, for that matter) can perforate structural walls and endanger innocent persons on the other side(s), which means knowing what's "downrange" ... just like with any other firearm employed in the role of a defensive weapon.
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03-27-2018, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM
Does she count as concealment or cover????????
Sorry..........................
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I was thinking of the back stop berm at the range
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03-27-2018, 09:06 AM
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Lord help you if she reads this thread.
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03-27-2018, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER
I was thinking of the back stop berm at the range
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"Dead man walking"!!!!!!
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03-27-2018, 10:26 AM
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IF YOU'RE GONNA STEAL A LINE OR CLICHE... (guilty)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
It's whatever it turns out to be.
Anytime you find yourself in a "fair fight", SOMEBODY screwed up, BADLY.
I'm not interested in a fair fight.
I'm interested in a decisive and entirely one-sided victory.
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Steal a good one. You forgot "BETTER TO HAVE ONE & NOT NEED IT..." Nice work.
Last edited by nachogrande; 03-27-2018 at 10:35 AM.
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03-27-2018, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666
Where can I move where there's no POSSIBILITY of a home invasion by whatever number of violent felons choose to show up?
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Come on over to Douglas County, Nevada; Minden, Gardnerville, Genoa. We are just South of Carson City. To quote the County Sheriff, "We have one of the lowest crime rates in the country, and I intend to keep it that way." Not to say that there is absolutely no possibility of an attempted home invasion, but you would be severely ostracized if there is not at least a blood trail leading away from your house.
Last edited by jag312; 03-27-2018 at 04:16 PM.
Reason: spelling
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03-27-2018, 12:47 PM
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03-27-2018, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER
I was thinking of the back stop berm at the range
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Caj, you've got to be one the bravest men I know!
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03-27-2018, 01:03 PM
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I have an Ithaca DSPS from Kansas State prison. Bought it surplus and took it to Gunsite shotgun class.
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03-27-2018, 01:05 PM
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NO NEED FOR BODY SHAMING.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER
I was thinking of the back stop berm at the range
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Giving warmth in the winter & shade in the summer is a good thing. Being able to push your truck out of the mud, BONUS.
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03-27-2018, 01:38 PM
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I remember the first kidnaping I worked - a little boy snatched from his yard. The ransom demand was for 35 pounds of marijuana, which by some odd coincidence turned out to be the exact amount Dad had been fronted to sell and then failed to pay for. The boy was later released at a Chuck E. Cheese across town. Every ransom-motivated kidnaping I worked after that was also dope related.
I found most home invasions to be the same. To avoid them:
1: Pay for your dope at the time of sale. If you are fronted dope to sell, pay back your supplier immediately, with a nice tip.
2: Don’t keep the dope at your house. Think storage unit.
3: Don’t have a woman in your house who has a husband or boyfriend, or has recently semi-detached herself from a husband or boyfriend. If said husband or boyfriend was recently released from prison, move this rule to the top.
That deals with 99% of home invasions (in my limited experience). I know 11 years ago in Connecticut a doctor and his family were ravaged by a pair of sociopaths. I think that one started with the man of the house taking a baseball bat to the face while he slept on the couch. A locked door, alarm, or a yippy dog would have given him a chance.
Not everyone wants or even can have a big dog. I have Randy, a very protective Rottweiler. He roams the house at night keeping an eye on things. One night he came to my side of the bed and made the quiet “how how” sound he makes so he doesn’t wake up my wife. Usually this means he wants to go outside, but this time he walked to the front window, looked out, and looked back at me. There was an ambulance with its lights on about ten houses down. I said - thanks buddy, and he laid down. He did it a while later to show me a buck mule deer standing next to my parked truck.
He is also extremely good company for a mostly retired guy, and the only dog I have ever known who looks at the sky. Once I took him out at about 2am and there was a plane crossing above. He sat and watched it until it went out of sight, then shook his big head and came in the house.
If anyone gets past the locked doors and Randy I have a cut-down J C Higgins 12 gauge pump with 5 double-aughts in the tube and five slugs in a sleeve on the stock. If they hurt Randy in the process, all of us will see how fast that old gun will slamfire. I can afford new carpet and drywall.
I think its more likely someone would try to do a push-in at the front door than do a Rambo raid in the dark of night. Randy answers the door, too.
While I am waxing eloquent, I will point out I am not concerned about home invasions - Randy and J C Higgins notwithstanding. I was processed into the FBI by an agent who was still working a couple of years past mandatory retirement. It turns out his house had been burned down right before he was eligible to retire by a guy he had locked up 20 years before. He was insured, but had special dispensation to stay past mandatory to get back on his feet. That stuck with me forever. In 25 years, I put at least 400 people in the federal pen. Not just arrested - that number is way higher. 400 folks where I was the case agent - interviewed them and the victim (if alive), witnesses, went to trial if necessary, then watched them be sentenced. Most of them couldn't pick me out of a lineup, I'm sure. But who knows who holds a grudge? That's why Randy and J C Higgins stand at the ready.
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 03-31-2018 at 08:47 PM.
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03-27-2018, 02:42 PM
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Most shooting incidents are over in seconds. 00 buck and slugs can penetrate several walls. It may be wiser to to use bird shot (for geese), inside a home where several people reside. This will stop a felon with less chance of collateral casualties.
Also, most home invasion type burglaries with multiple actors are male teenagers. The serious gang type invasions are more typically targeting houses known to be containing high-value, portable, goods (money, drugs, jewelry), or an attack on a rival gang. There are no zombies....
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03-27-2018, 04:14 PM
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It is plenty. I feel very secure with my over under and 5 extra rounds. They have to come down a hallway to get to us so I figure one slug will take out at least 3, if it is one then they can have a dose of 000 buck. Good night. If I could only have one gun, it would be a quality o/u. My citori white lightning has taken deer, coyote, squirrel, rabbit, ducks, geese, feral cats, feral dogs, coons, quail, pheasant, dove and more as well as stopping 2 home invasions, and trespassing meth cooks on our property all 3 times without firing a shot. I have no doubt it could take any threat that walks this earth with the right brenneke.
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03-27-2018, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
I found most home invasions to be the same. To avoid them:
Pay for your dope at the time of sale. If you are fronted dope to sell, pay back your supplier immediately, with a nice tip.
Don’t keep the dope at your house. Think storage unit.
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I lol'd--I wasn't really joking when I suggested "Stop dealing drugs" as home invasion prevention.
Also, 35 friggin' pounds? Was he trying to get the free shipping? So he owed, what, eighteen or twenty grand to a bunch of guys you wouldn't wanna owe eighteen cents?
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03-27-2018, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER
this is wayyyyyyyyy better than a bear thread
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What if your home gets invaded by a gang of bears
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03-27-2018, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A
I lol'd--I wasn't really joking when I suggested "Stop dealing drugs" as home invasion prevention.
Also, 35 friggin' pounds? Was he trying to get the free shipping? So he owed, what, eighteen or twenty grand to a bunch of guys you wouldn't wanna owe eighteen cents?
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Well, it was a while ago so the dollar value wasn't as much. He had moved a bunch in the past, got away from it, and wanted back in, so they fronted him 35 pounds. He was slow on repaying - so rather than take him to small claims court they snatched his kid.
Once the kid was recovered and Daddy professed to have no idea who had done it, we folded our tent and moved on.
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 03-27-2018 at 07:06 PM.
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03-27-2018, 06:57 PM
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THE STATS ARE PRETTY STRONG.
SURVEY SAYS: 113 -6 , nuff said. To SIGP220, why do you think they call it dope. Beginners luck catching a slam dunk right out of the gate.
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03-27-2018, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande
SURVEY SAYS: 113 -6 , nuff said. To SIGP220, why do you think they call it dope. Beginners luck catching a slam dunk right out of the gate.
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We never caught them. The kid was fine and having a good time at Chuck E. Cheese. Dad knew who they were but wasn't talking. The mom called the cops, he didn't. We had the phone wired so we knew it was a dope dispute, but with no dope on the table no one was going to prosecute that end of it.
This was in New Orleans during the pre-Katrina glory years of 435 murders a year in a town of less than 500,000 people. The motto was "If you don't care, we don't care." He didn't care. We moved on to someone who did.
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 03-27-2018 at 08:25 PM.
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03-27-2018, 07:48 PM
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435 REPORTED/DISCOVERED.
Probly got worked out privately, but will never know. Gators gotta eat too.
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03-27-2018, 08:23 PM
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Late to the party but ...
If I was seriously concerned that 5 or 6 12 gauge rounds may be inadequate, I would go with an M1 Carbine. The standard magazine holds 15 pistol-class rounds. 30 round mags are also available, as is soft-point ammunition.
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03-27-2018, 08:37 PM
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Thanks so much, gang. Seems the overall consensus is positive for this role. I just like the better balance and greater protection from damage. I feel as if the fit and swing of the gun is very important, and a good trade off for one less round and with a side saddle and practice, there are more where that came from in the tube as well.
I am tremendously appreciative of everyone's discussions and it is always humbling and extremely interesting to read the personal accounts and stories of our resident LEOs, military, and normal people here at the S&W forum. Thank you for allowing me to glean some much valued information from you all!!
-Jay
Last edited by JayFramer; 03-27-2018 at 08:39 PM.
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03-27-2018, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtcarm
What if your home gets invaded by a gang of bears
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The citori and brennekes will handle that as well! Lol
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