Guys my Remington 870 Police has a +1 Wilson Combat magazine tube extension for a total of 5+1. I keep the gun "cruiser ready" so 5 in the tube, empty chamber. My sidesaddle holds 6 additional rounds should they be needed.

Do you think that's enough? Should I get a +2 magazine extension for 6+1 total? I love the way the setup balances as is, and the mag tube extension is so short a bracket isn't needed for support and it's a handy and rugged setup with my Surefire forend. Some feel as if the magazine tube MUST extend to the barrel but I don't know.

What do you all think? Is 5+1 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot enough for home defense?

Home invasions by groups are becoming more popular. I think the current record is eight intruders.
Geoff
Who notes some statistics are not available, all the witnesses having been killed.

If you are a competent shot, 6 rounds of 12 gauge OO buckshot should be more than adequate for self defense unless you are being invaded by a squad. Personally I keep a KSG close by when at work or home. If 6 is good...15 is better.

I'm with you, love the compact build of the KSG. I have mine loaded with 22 rds of Aguilla slugs and 00 buck.

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Jack C

I've got 7+1 with 5 more on the stock. Six feet away is an M&P full size 9 with 3 x 17 +1.

Viridian green laser/light on both.

I guess I never got over being a Boy Scout.

I think 4 or 5 shells of 00 buck with a side saddle of 5 more is plenty for engaging multiple targets.

There are stories of GI’s in ww1 and ww2 using the standard 5 shot Winchester 1897 to take out entire rows of a trench, or to take on multiple enemy soldiers to great effect.

Train on topping off the tube and a standard pump shotgun is one of the most effective and devastating handheld weapons one can procure

Just my opinion

In a hypothetical scenario you can never have enough, but in a "real world" home invasion you are unlikely to even need the shells in your saddle.

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Stay protected my friends.

Just the sound of racking the slide could be a serious deterrent.

A common myth perpetrated by Hollywood and gun forums. Also somewhat wishful thinking on the part of the person who's racking the slide. "Once the bad guys hear me racking the slide on my Model 12-Ithaca 37-Generic Mossberg, they'll hightail it out the door and I can go back to bed!"

What it actually accomplishes in a dark house at 0300 is to give away your position to any intruder(s).

Grab your gun ....hunker down......Rack one and add one for your 6+1....... dial 911

If the first one or two take a load of "buck" coming through your bedroom door....... I doubt the "rest" will press the attack...... if they do it's probably TEOTWAWKI........ and you are SOL.

LOL my home defense shotgun gun is a Mossberg 20 gage 510 Youth model which only holds 3 in the tube (6 on the butt)... but anyone in the family can handle it.....backup is a M&P w/ 17+1 and a weapons light.

I think it also shows that the person may be reluctant to shoot which will give the intruder an edge. Larry

then just get a recording of the "sound" and not bother with the trouble a firearm can bring.

Well, if not, the sight of the first guy spread out on the floor with a gaping wound from nine .32 00 pellets should discourage the rest of the gang.

I have read that the shotguns were so feared that German soldiers made a practice of executing any allied soldiers caught with a shotgun.

In Vietnam (1969-71) we were still using the Winchester 97's and Model 12's. Some were made as "trench guns" with heat shield and bayonet lug, some were plain "riot gun" type. Standard ammo was 2-3/4" copper-plated 00-buckshot. Also issued in smaller quantities were fleshette rounds, loaded with dozens of steel darts (like small nails with fins). Both were very effective out to 50 yards or so from cylinder-bore barrels.

In more recent years our military has developed specialized shotguns called "breaching" guns. Short-barreled 12-gauge shotguns with ammo designed for breaking through doors and gates by destroying hinges or locks. I suspect that there have been at least a few incidents of close combat with those being used against hostiles.

A good pump 12-gauge is probably the single most effective weapon for short range personal defense.

We used to use the 79 thumper with fleshette/green shells for our trench/point person-- Quite effective, but probably not suitable for home defense

Yeah, the M79 was a fine weapon when loaded with fleshettes. Probably have a little difficulty acquiring a grenade launcher in the US civilian market; might have to go to Mexico or some other country with strict gun control laws to actually find one you could buy.

Yea, civilian is 37mm, ole thumper was 40mm, and obsolete, like us

In 1975 or there abouts, an old man came into a store with a shotgun that he wanted to sell. I was the only other person in the store, so I said to the owner go take care of the old man. I was just gawking at the cases anyway. Well the old man whipped out a Model 97 riot gun( a true cyl. stamped bbl). The old man said what local police dept it came from, and sold it for 125.00. He even said how he sent it back to Winchester for reconditioning. The gun was still on the counter, and the old man was gone and I said to the owner I want the gun. not really knowing what it was, but it sure was pretty. The owner said ok, I will make a quick 10.00 and you can have it for 135.00. I grabbed it so fast it got windburn. It is still today one of my prized posessions, and it is loaded with a tube full of # 2 shot, with xtra extra shells handy and a 1911

What is your threat level (dangerous neighborhood, angry neighbors, do you publicly deal with large amounts of money or expensive items)? Have you needed to defend your home (can't predict that for the future, of course)? Do you train with your 870, especially rapid reloading under stress? Does your J frame hold more than 6?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

He lives in Las Vegas.

My 40-year old Remington 870 is an unusual piece, having a 21" barrel with choke tubes. It has the standard magazine tube, accepts 4 rounds (2 when I put in the plug for duck hunting). At home it stays loaded with 2-3/4" loads of BB shot with the improved cylinder choke tube. I doubt anyone will notice the difference between 1.25 oz. BB shot and buckshot from one end of the house to the other end. I also doubt that the BB shot will penetrate more than one wall, which I find important in a residential area.

If the 4 rounds of 12-gauge aren't enough I will have to use the back-up piece, a .45 caliber pistol (8 round mag).

No, I don't feel under-gunned.

I could not agree more. I have two 870's hidden in the house. You hit someone with #6, 7 or 8 bird shot from 5 to 10 feet, the wad might kill them. Plus, if two or more come in the house and you take out the first perp with a blast, unless the next guy in line is Rambo, they will probably injure each other heading back out the door they just came thru.

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Don Mundell

I see that you are an active/retired LEO. Did you carry "bird shot" in the shotgun in your unit? Probably not.
What is so different now that you would recommend that I use bird shot instead of buck shot of some size or another?

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Off the top of my head I recall reading about 2 home invasions where the homeowner used a shotgun, both involving 2 or 3 attackers and resolved with one shot. The attackers in both cases fled, IIRC. One involved an old lady using bird shot. They caught the suspects in that case. One of them was wearing a leather jacket and the shot didn't penetrate through. I don't know what the defender in the other case was using, though I believe he did wound one of the attackers.

While this is a very small sample size, I, personally, would not trust bird shot even at home defense distances. From what I've read, #1 or #4 buckshot seem to be recommended as being a good balance between effectiveness and mitigating the risk of overpenetration/penetrating walls.

His department doesn't get to tell him what to use at home . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

The reason is, at the Academy where I went, we were told birdshot was preferred in home defense. Buckshot would go thru a wall and kill or injure occupants in the next room. I carried #4 Shot in my 870. It was my own gun.

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Don Mundell

The old LEO rounds were 00 buck shot. They could penetrate car doors and still take out a Perp. They were also effective at 50 yards. Show me a house that provides a 50 yard indoor range....

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

After the seeing this video, and the results of a WOMAN being shot at almost point blank range, I could never justify using birdshot as a defensive load.

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Stay protected my friends.

Using birdshot and the sound of racking a pump gun are the two most prevalent defensive myths that make me just shake my head and wonder why they persist.

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Freedom isn't free.

Wow, that video is something.

The shooting was at Seattle Pacific University a few years ago. The shooter killed a young man by shooting him in the back of the head with a birdshot load from a Browning over and under 12 gauge. The young woman in the video took that full load to the upper right chest. Even though it almost killed her (severed artery, collapsed lung) she didn’t even stagger.

Would a 00 buck round have left her standing and walking around? I doubt it, but until I saw this I would have thought the close range birdshot load would have more effect than it did. I’m glad for her sake we’ll never know.

She recovered and testified at the guys trial. He got 112 years.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Thanks for the extra info.

It's interesting to note that a normal load of 00 Buck and a normal load of #7.5 (Birdshot) weigh about the same; 1 1/8oz.

Most people think that 00 Buck delivers more damage because it's a bigger pellet. Newton would disagree because the total mass is the same. 1 1/8oz of #7.5 is the same mass as 1 1/8oz of #00 Buck. So, why is 00 Buck better for defense?

The difference is velocity. A normal Trap/Bird load is 1 1/8oz of #7.5 and it's traveling about 1290FPS at the muzzle. A normal load of #00 Buck is 1 1/8oz and is traveling 1400FPS (Hornady Critical Defense #00 Buck loads are traveling 1600FPS ). That extra velocity makes a huge difference in force applied to the bad guy.

That's still not the whole story. The size of the pellet DOES matter. Because it's a larger pellet, each pellet has more mass and individually will do more damage. Therefore, each pellet of #00 Buck will penetrate better than each pellet of #7.5. So, even though the total mass is the same, the velocity of a normal #00 Buck load is higher and the individual pellets will do more damage because the bring more mass to a smaller area.

Now, to answer the question asked by sigp220.45; Would a 00 buck round have left her standing and walking around? The answer is likely no. The reason it's no is because the #00 Buck would likely have broken her collar bone based on the shot placement. A normal person's reaction to a broken bone is an emphatic OOOOWWWW!!!! This is usually followed by some kind of movement. Because the birdshot didn't break any bones, she probably didn't understand what had happened due to the surprise. Because an artery or vein being cut doesn't hurt as much as breaking a bone, we tend to react slower. Thus she was likely more stunned by the sound than the initial hit from the shot.

This is all just speculation from me. Still, it explains why #00 Buck, or larger, is a much better defensive load.

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Freedom isn't free.

Why the empty chamber? Are you hoping for the pumping sound to have an effect?

The post says "cruiser ready" (magazine loaded, chamber empty). Carrying a shotgun with loaded chamber in a vehicle is not considered a safe action. Also, in many states it is unlawful to have a long gun (rifle or shotgun) with a chambered round in a motor vehicle; probably an anti-poaching law, but very much a common sense safety precaution.

At home my 870 has a full magazine, empty chamber, action cocked, safety engaged. In order to use the shotgun it is necessary to hit the slide release, chamber a round, then disengage the safety. With practice and experience this takes only a second or two. In my opinion the added level of safety in storage and handling make this worthwhile. YMMV

You MAY HAVE bigger things to worry about, like death, or finding a new house. MB 590 here 8+1. 5 In the mag, chamber empty, safety off. Grab, rack, point, shoot, get the mop & bucket & survey the damage. If you feel you need more, load more.

I'm hoping so. I'm counting on 2 to do the trick.

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Because of the metric system?

The most common hunting accident involves a loaded shotgun in a vehicle. Usually, the dingbat grabs the loaded shotgun by the muzzle and pulls the shotgun toward the himself or shoots someone in the front seat while trying to get out of the back seat with the loaded shotgun.

Prohibiting loaded shotguns in vehicles is a safety measure as well as an attempt to prevent road hunting.

TURKEY KILLS TURKEY HUNTER with his own gun. So Elmer Fudd shoots a turkey, assumes it is dead & throws it and the loaded shotgun/safety still off, into his trunk & drives away. Upon opening the trunk, the turkey wakes up, thrashes around, hitting the trigger, the shotgun fires, killing Elmer.

WHAT, Elmer Fudd is dead?

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

So, saying "cruiser ready" means it is setup for vehicle transport. Thanks, I hadn't heard that term before.

Is there something detrimental happening to a pump shotgun action by keeping it chambered, with the safety on? I've kept my home-defense Mossberg 500 in that condition since I bought it several years ago.

Most shotguns have a floating firing pin. That means that if a round is chambered and the safety is on, the shotgun can still go 'boom' if it is dropped on it's muzzle and the floating firing pin's inertia is enough to strike the primer.

All long guns ought to be kept condition 3, IMO. Modern handguns, condition 1.

In response to your question, I can think of two potential detriments in keeping your 500 chambered with safety on:

1. Someone gaining access to the shotgun without full training or familiarization, easily finds how to release the safety and touches the trigger.

2. For whatever reason you decide to transport your shotgun by automobile without unloading the chamber, then find yourself crosswise with the law or (worse) have an unintentional discharge in the vehicle, or while getting it out of the vehicle. Not very difficult to nudge that safety to the 'off' position, and it could happen from jostling around in the vehicle during transport. Not very difficult to snag the trigger on something while extracting the shotgun from the vehicle.

I like to have mine in a condition that requires the conscious acts of hitting the slide release, chambering a round, releasing the safety, then addressing the potential target. Only takes a few seconds to make it ready, especially with experience and practice, but far less likely for anyone else to put it in operating mode without knowing what they are doing.

That is my method. Yours may vary.

I’m a bit of an outlier on this.

IMHO You don’t need more than one or two rounds in a shotgun for defense inside the house unless you aren’t very skilled and seriously contemplate a wave of zombies pouring into the house.

Most folks folks contemplating hd with a shotgun would be better off spending some time shooting trap (or even better, skeet) low gun than spending money on magazine extensions or other tacticool gizmos.

Since I don’t entertain zombie fantasies, I think of high capacity shotguns as pretty useless.

I think 5 + 1 is plenty. Especially if you have something else handy as a couple others mentioned. Personally, I like the idea of having a revolver and a shotgun handy and in close proximity. Then I don’t worry as much about being undergunned, overwhelmed by #’s, or short on ammo capacity. Barring being the object of a true tactical assault.

I MUST SECOND, bigwheelzip's QUESTION......

IMHO YOUR WEAPON SHOULD HAVE A LOADED CHAMBER, AND A FULL MAG TUBE. IT SHOUD BE KEPT IN A READILY ACCESSIBLE LOCATION, WITH THE SAFETY ON......

RACKING THE SLIDE, IN THE FACE OF A HOME INVASION, MAY GIVE YOU SOME FALSE SENSE OF POWER--BUT--ALL YOU HAVE DONE IS TO ADVERTISE YOUR LOCATION, AND DIMINISH THE AMMO IN YOUR MAG TUBE, BY 1 ROUND.....

A BETTER TACTIC WOULD BE TO SEEK COVER. IN A POSITION THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO COVER THE POINT OF ENTRY. QUIETLY SLIP OFF YOUR SAFETY AND WAIT. ( IF TIME PERMITS. CALL 911. THEY WILL NOT GET THERE IN TIME TO PREVENT THIS CRIME, SO JUST HANG UP, AFTER YOU INFORM THEM THAT THERE IS A HOME INVASION, IN PROGRESS, AT YOUR ADDRESS) ......

THE ODDS ARE THAT THE POINT MAN, OF THIS INVASION, WILL BE THE ONE CARRYING A WEAPON. ONCE HE HAS GAINED ACCESS, GREET HIM WITH A LOAD OF BUCKSHOT. HIS CREW MAY ELECT TO STEP OVER HIS BODY, AND CONTINUE THEIR MISSION. IF SO, TREAT THEM TO THE SAME WARM WELCOME......

MOST LIKELY, THEY WILL ABORT. PERHAPS THEY WILL ATTEPT TO DRAG OFF THEIR FALLEN COMRADE, OR SIMPLY ABANDON HIM. PERHAPS, THROUGH SOME STROKE OF GOOD FORTUNE, THE POLICE WILL ACTUALLY SHOW UP IN TIME, TO APPREHEND ONE OR MORE OF THEM.....

WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT EMERGE FROM YOUR HIDING PLACE WITH YOUR WEAPON IN YOUR HANDS ! ! ! IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS THE HOMEOWNER. PUT YOUR WEAPON ON SAFE AND THROW IT OUT ON THE FLOOR. NOW SLOWLY EMERGE, WITH YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. COMPLY TO THE LETTER, WITH ANY INSTRUCTIONS THAT YOU ARE GIVEN BY THE RESPONDING OFFICERS. YOU COULD GET SHOT, IF YOU ARE PERCEIVED AS A THREAT.....

TO PREPARE FOR EVENTS OF THIS NATURE, PRACTICE TOPPING OFF YOUR MAGAZINE, WHILE KEEPING YOUR WEAPON IN THE KILL ZONE....

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I like a shotgun for home defense as you can load as you go but it takes a little practice to load without looking and to do it slick but duck hunters do have a slight advantage here I have seen duck hunters load shotguns in the the rain in sleet with ice hanging in their beards and be looking at the sky smiling the whole time lol wouldn't want to break in that house .

I doubt the bad guy's are going to charge over the bodies of their 6 fallen partners in crime to see if I'm outta ammo.....usually around body #2 they retreat. Criminals are not very brave .
Gary

Well, not enough if the average home invasion party in your neighborhood numbers 7 participants...

Recently saw an ad for a shotgun that holds 25 rounds. Again, not enough if 26 come to call...

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Pisgah

I don't use a shotgun for home defense because it would be wholly inappropriate in my current environment.

That having been said, the only self-defense shotgun I've ever owned was an Ithaca Model 37 Deer Slayer Police Special with a seven+1 magazine. I'd never own anything for that purpose with a smaller capacity.

MY old duty S&W riot gun next to the night stand is loaded and ready.
A Winchester 30-30 is next to it if I need to "reach out" further.

I believe it is very important that any self defense gun in the house be kept OUT OF SIGHT.
Too much chance of someone entering the bedroom unnoticed will spot the loaded gun and shoot you with it in your sleep.