Revolver or high capacity auto

I started my LE career in 1977 with a revolver. I never had any question as to whether or not the revolver would get the job done. My only concern was if I would have enough rounds on the rare occasion that we got into a protracted gunfight. I carried a Model 28 on duty and usually a Model 60 off-duty. During that time, I became a range master and firearms instructor. I helped our firearms training evolve from standard PPC qualifications back to 50 yards with 60 rounds to combat scenarios. Outside of speed, the revolvers kept up, but weren't all that far behind. Then we transitioned to 645/4506 duty guns. Again, it was found there was no replacement for consistent combat training in getting used to 8 + 1 rounds and how it affected tactics. Then came the Glocks. While scores seemed to improve marginally, I noticed an overall drop in target shooting marksmanship. Folks seemed to begin to rely more on capacity than ability. Over my 37 years I noted a general change in the tactical attitudes of our troops. There seemed to be a greater emphasis on putting a lot of rounds on target and less on shot placement as a result of having more rounds. I guess if you put enough rounds on target, sooner or later you're going to get lucky, in some peoples' minds.

As an old retired fart, I still have and enjoy my high-capacity semi-auto pistols. I own a couple of Glocks and a couple of Sigs. However, I own more 1911s and S&W revolvers. I find I occasionally carry a Sig P365, just because of the size and round count if I'm possibly going to be in an area where I could need the rounds. But, a vast majority of the time, I carry a J-frame; usually a 340 M&P or 640 with Buffalo Bore 158 +P LSWCHP. I also carry a couple of speed loaders or speed strips. Some may think I still have more rounds than I'll ever need. Just call me a Boy Scout.

IF I am in a fight, I want to be better prepared than my attacker, that means tactics, gear & skill level. In the 70s you were most likely facing a revo armed attacker, Today, semiauto rules the roost for cheap handguns & the small % of semiauto rifle attacks, no way am I carrying a 5 or 6 shot, slow to reload anything as a civi, much less as a LEO. Tactics are number one, then good shooting then good gear, so why handicap yourself if the 1st two are covered?
Today we have subcompact 9mm that are just as small as any revo worth carrying, more rounds & better ballistics. My g26 is smaller than a K frame snub, 10+1 here in Kommiefornia. Go to a G33 & you have a superior ballistic, easier shooting platform than an 357mag snub with nearly twice the ammo.

delcrossv said:

Additionally, I take a cue from my two LEO friends (both CPD, one active, one retired) They carry either J frame revolvers or small, low-capacity semiautos when off duty.

Just my 2 cents.

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When looking for advice on how to best survive a gunfight, gear or skill set, a LEO is THE last person I seek out. Consider more than 70% of LEO never use their gun in a 20y career, how much do they really know about what is the most effective tool?? Just sayin.

fredj338 said:

When looking for advice on how to best survive a gunfight, gear or skill set, a LEO is THE last person I seek out. Consider more than 70% of LEO never use their gun in a 20y career, how much do they really know about what is the most effective tool?? Just sayin.

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Fair enough, Although parts of Chicago resemble Beirut in the 80's, I still don't feel the need to arm myself like I'm going there.

To your point, if not cops, who would be a good model then? Not too many folks regularly involved in gunfights outside of the military, and their armament is pretty impractical for an average schmoe like me to go walking around with.

My answer is: How many times do You plan to miss?

If I were a Cop, a high-capacity auto is a must, but I feel appropriately armed with a 5 shot snub as a civilian.

I have yet to find nor has anyone been able to provide substantial documented evidence to demonstrate that I'm inadequately armed.

delcrossv said:

Fair enough, Although parts of Chicago resemble Beirut in the 80's, I still don't feel the need to arm myself like I'm going there.

To your point, if not cops, who would be a good model then? Not too many folks regularly involved in gunfights outside of the military, and their armament is pretty impractical for an average schmoe like me to go walking around with.

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The FBI actually studies gunfights academically, so they would be a reasonable resource. But that doesn't mean you should ask an FBI agent or a cop - ask the people that designed their training.

To that point, people talk about the violence in Chicago, but more officers were killed in TX, CA and LA than IL in 2016. And I doubt the 4 killed in IL were all in south Chicago. Our perception of danger and what is actually a danger to the kind of people the read gun forums



This thread has drifted off topic almost immediately - the real topic is whether having more capacity affects a CCer's awareness level. Personally, I think we have the opposite problem in that the training and gun marketing industries are feeding an unrealistic paranoia that causes people to make skewed judgements of the world they live in.


Carry what you want to carry. Any gun will likely work, so you might as well enjoy what you carry. And as Model520Fan points out, some guns are much safer to handle/load/unload at home than your typical load-from-the-magazine automatic, like revolvers and pop-up barrel Berettas, or guns tolerant of direct barrel loading.

Roller Delayed said:

To that point, people talk about the violence in Chicago, but more officers were killed in TX, CA and LA than IL in 2016. And I doubt the 4 killed in IL were all in south Chicago. Our perception of danger and what is actually a danger to the kind of people the read gun forums

This thread has drifted off topic almost immediately - the real topic is whether having more capacity affects a CCer's awareness level. Personally, I think we have the opposite problem in that the training and gun marketing industries are feeding an unrealistic paranoia that causes people to make skewed judgements of the world they live in.

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Sort of my point, off duty cops, as well as an average citizen, the locations and situations determine what's realistic. As my semi is only 7+1 in .380, my situational awareness between that and my 940 isn't different between the platforms. I should hope that it wouldn't be different if I carried a high cap 9mm.

I agree, a lot of marketing is SHTF/zombie apocalypse scenarios. Neither of which has a lot to do with day to day CC.

Regarding Chicago, 90% of what's going on is 'banger on 'banger, which correlates well to low LEO fatalities combined with a high murder rate. That and the new protocols from the administration which, among other things, curtailed community policing.

I love the idea of carrying my Glock 19 or even a AR, but a small 380 auto or 38 special fit my lifestyle and dress patterns better. I live in a low crime area and try to watch what I do and where I go as much as possible.

delcrossv said:

Fair enough, Although parts of Chicago resemble Beirut in the 80's, I still don't feel the need to arm myself like I'm going there.

To your point, if not cops, who would be a good model then? Not too many folks regularly involved in gunfights outside of the military, and their armament is pretty impractical for an average schmoe like me to go walking around with.

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What I should have said is average LEO. They are just not up to the task for the most part imo. A SWAT guy, an advanced pistol instructor with some combat exp, etc. Just like there are a lot of people on the military, not all are combat vets that could guide you thru a fight. I am a civi & have had LEO in my adv pistol classes. So??

Mister X said:

If I were a Cop, a high-capacity auto is a must, but I feel appropriately armed with a 5 shot snub as a civilian.

I have yet to find nor has anyone been able to provide substantial documented evidence to demonstrate that I'm inadequately armed.

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IMO, not about how much you are going to miss but what the threat could be. Today, active shooter, crazies with long guns, I personally do not want to walk around feeling comfy with a pocket rocket. Sure, the avg mugging, gtg, maybe, but a serious attacker, high cap semi pistol or rifle, make it two bad guys, you are likely screwed right there, right now. A cursory exam of the SanBern terrorists attack on the dining room would have me leaving my snubby at home.

Roller Delayed said:

This thread has drifted off topic almost immediately - the real topic is whether having more capacity affects a CCer's awareness level. Personally, I think we have the opposite problem in that the training and gun marketing industries are feeding an unrealistic paranoia that causes people to make skewed judgements of the world they live in.

Carry what you want to carry. Any gun will likely work, so you might as well enjoy what you carry. And as Model520Fan points out, some guns are much safer to handle/load/unload at home than your typical load-from-the-magazine automatic, like revolvers and pop-up barrel Berettas, or guns tolerant of direct barrel loading.

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I do not think cap has anything to do with situational awareness. As far as loading & unloading safely, sorry, if you can not do that, consider not carrying a gun at all, you are really not familiar enough with it to be around others in a public enviro, IMHO.

This discussion is fantastic! Really informative and such a vast array of intelligent shared opinions. You are all to be commended for spending your valuable time to give such valuable impute for those of us who CCW.

Going back the the points the OP raised, and reflecting my own experiences:

The training by LAPD back in the day was not typical for the vast majority of LLEAs. In general, firearms training was bullseye based. Any official "tactical" training was largely delivered by field training officers and was highly variable in content/quality. My observation of a pretty good cross section of local departments back in the day strongly suggested that most got their "tactical" training from John Wayne movies.

I used to mine the NYPD Firearms Discharge Reports for training gems. Over time, the average shots per good guy/gal (GG) per bad guy/gal (BG) in shootings ran 3.5-4.7 rds. In an actual gunfight, the average went up to 6+-8+ per GG per BG. This covered revolvers and self loaders. If more than one GG/BG was involved, the averages went up. This also covers the years where NYPD made use of cover a priority, amount/quality of other "tactical" training is unknown.

So far as private citizen records go, there's only one statistically significant database. It suggests that 2 rounds in the upper thorax seems to work well as a problem solver-at least with only one BG. Actual round count unknown, but the average range is about 5 yards with extremes of 3 and 27 yards.

So, does capacity affect situational awareness? Not being a mind reader, I really don't know. Observation suggests that the vast majority of people don't have a clue about what's going on around them. Likewise, quite a few have an exaggerated concept of their abilities/what may be necessary to avoid/survive an armed encounter. The averages noted above suggest that a 5 shot snubby and no spare ammo may not be a really good solution for a potential problem if you miss the warning cues or decide you're being paranoid.

I've graduated from a bunch of training schools, Many made mention of the importance of "situational awareness". Only one had any mention whatsoever about what you should be looking for.

fredj338 said:

As far as loading & unloading safely, sorry, if you can not do that, consider not carrying a gun at all, you are really not familiar enough with it to be around others in a public enviro, IMHO.

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When you do something, say, twice a day for forty years, you probably do it well and properly. However, there is at least some possibility that you might make a mistake one of those twenty-nine-thousand-plus times. On a pistol range, that thing is pointed down range. Where is it pointed at home? On the street, one is probably not handling a gun at all.

At my age, there is at least some possibility that I am more familiar with all of my guns than you are with any of yours. But I would not bet my life or anyone else's that I would never make one mistake out of tens of thousands of opportunities.

Our standard firearms handling rules include a certain amount of overlap on safety procedures. If I choose to add a little overlap, or maintain standard overlap under certain difficult conditions, I am not all that interested in your uninformed opinion about who I should be around in public.

fredj338 said:

I do not think cap has anything to do with situational awareness. As far as loading & unloading safely, sorry, if you can not do that, consider not carrying a gun at all, you are really not familiar enough with it to be around others in a public enviro, IMHO.

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It has nothing to do with anyone's ability, but the fact that a typical recoil operated pistol has to be loaded by forcefully dropping the slide. You can't get a slamfire with a revolver.

Plus, you aren't fighting a heavy spring where your grip matters.

This subject's a well worn path. MHO? Get proficient with a double action revolver and it'll make you better with your auto loader. Grip, trigger and capacity control. Not as prone to spray & pray.

cheeseinwisconsin said:

Ok everyone,this question has been posed to me a number of times from my customers throughout the years. There have been a lot of opinions expressed regarding this subject and I thought I would give my take for what is it worth and ask you all join in and let us all know what you think. When I first became a officer for the City of Los Angeles back in 1973, we were issued a 38 caliber K frame revolver, and a wooden night stick. Add to that twelve extra rounds and that was it. No pepper spray or taser and or hand held radios. Fast forward to now and you will find an array of tools available to law enforcement and civilians alike that offer more choices on how to react in volatile situations. One upgrade, namely the high capacity auto handgun such as the Beretta 92 have allowed a officer or citizen a leg up so to speak in dealing in situations involving the use of deadly force. However, the carrying of a high capacity auto handgun comes with a price. My opinion is that it can give a individual sense of inflated confidence. Although the thought that more is better, sometimes that is a hindrance in employing good tactics. When we had only revolvers, we knew we had only six rounds before we had to reload so therefore we had to have acute awareness of our surroundings, i.e. cover. Unnecessarily placing ones self in the open was a no-no tactically and doing so meant a high possibility of being seriously injury or death. The point I’m alluding to is that although high capacity autos are a great tool to have for self defense, please be aware of the feeling of over confidence as all it takes is one bullet coming your way to wreck your day no matter if you are carrying a flintlock pistol or a machine gun.

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I agree with you 100%. I was Hunting Department Manager at Turner's Outdoorsman in Long Beach, then we moved the store to Signal Hill, then I helped open the South Bay store at Hawthorne and 164th in the South Bay before the riots.

I can remember two officers coming into the Long Beach store talking about how they both dumped mags (Beretta 92 standard issue) at a guy running from them in an alley who got away - you don't want to know my thoughts about that situation.

As a non-law enforcement CCW carrier, your job is not to give chase. You are not going to war. You are defending yourself and (possibly) others in your immediate area. Your point of impact, if you need to draw, shouldn't be more than 15 yards at the most. Your best weapon is the gray matter between your ears, and your best defense is not to be there.

I remember a statistic I heard back in the 90's where the FBI determined that most gun fights end in 3 shots - I don't know if that's still the case with people doing mag dumps and the increase in mass shootings but I don't feel the need at all to carry a 15+ round firearm for personal protection...and I don't see the need to have a .308 caliber "CQB" M1A to protect the house (while the bullet goes through my walls and into my neighbor's house and endangers them).

There's a difference between being defensive and offensive. If you aren't in law enforcement, you need to stick to the defensive side of things.

More is better
Thank you

In my case

Model520Fan said:

When you do something, say, twice a day for forty years, you probably do it well and properly. However, there is at least some possibility that you might make a mistake one of those twenty-nine-thousand-plus times. On a pistol range, that thing is pointed down range. Where is it pointed at home? On the street, one is probably not handling a gun at all.

At my age, there is at least some possibility that I am more familiar with all of my guns than you are with any of yours. But I would not bet my life or anyone else's that I would never make one mistake out of tens of thousands of opportunities.

Our standard firearms handling rules include a certain amount of overlap on safety procedures. If I choose to add a little overlap, or maintain standard overlap under certain difficult conditions, I am not all that interested in your uninformed opinion about who I should be around in public.

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A lot of rambling there but my not so uninformed opinion is if you can not safely handle your chosen pistol, maybe leave it home. Range, home or street, safety rules do not change. More likely as some age they get forgetful, that is another discussion. While you think you know me, you really have no idea, but handling any weapon, I will be comfortable & more important, safe.