Doing the CCW training here is still on the TODO list, but given the current environment, I'm questioning the wisdom of getting a license. My concern is it is a list of gun owners.

MN is a duty to retreat state, so the you are in much more legal jeopardy than in a lot of other states. One benefit of having it is it bypasses the requirement to get a purchase permit to buy a pistol here.

I'm weighing the probability of actually needing it (very low) vs. the consequences of being on a gun banner's list (severe?).

Too bad there is no constitutional carry here, and we are unlikely to ever get it.

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Common sense isn't so common.

In my state, we already have a registry.....it's called the phone book

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On the Oak Savannah

Anyone who has completed a 4473 is theoretically on that list.

Exactly!!!

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Jorge

Sort of. If the gun shop has closed and they sent their 4473's to the ATF. I haven't bought any guns in MN, so I'm not a 4473 here.

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Common sense isn't so common.

True, but:

1) ATF has access to those files and
2) with the 4473 comes a NICS and while they don't have make/model/caliber, they do know you've got a gun and what type.

So either way, we already have a registry. Politicians just work on refining it...

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Jorge

If you have used a credit card to buy anything, you are on a list somewhere of people who have bought that something. If you carry a cell phone, your shopping trips have been recorded and data sold to somebody with a list.
Somewhere, a machine is comparing and collating data. Your TV, fridge, and musical items are listening to you, and your phones and computers are watching you. Your neighbors might not know what goes on in your house when the lights go out, but someone does.
Or not.

In Florida, it’s illegal to use the CCW as a gun registry, but when did the law ever stop a criminal.

The Feds have long been playing fast and loose with the definition of a "database"

Naturally those who despise the Second Amendment also see the First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments as "impediments" to effective government action on guns.

The ATF's Nonsensical Non-Searchable Gun Databases, Explained

Oh, for heaven's sake... Get your concealed carry permit. I guarantee that even as rare as the need to draw/fire a gun may be, it's still a heck of a lot more likely than the government or police using a registry of concealed carry permits against you.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Seriously? Between google, facebook Nd the NSA, they know more about us through our online activity than we know about ourselves. You think they don’t already know who the gun nuts are?

I'd be offended if I'm not on the list. NRA Instructor, concealed carry permit, multiple 4473 forms, community service local SO.

I try to make it more challenging for them, by not putting my picture online, and not putting pictures of the guns I lost in the lake online.

I truly do not care if I’m on a list or not . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Here is an interview with a gun shop owner on YouTube. In it, she explains what happens with the Form 4473 you fill out, as well as what is tracked and what is not, and for how long.

Worried About Losing Your Guns After The Election? : How Guns Are Tracked At The Gun Store - YouTube

This next one is from NBC News, and covers much of the same info.

Tracing The Gun: The Archaic Way The U.S. Tracks Gun Ownership | Think | NBC News - YouTube

The long and short of it is that by the time the government determines what guns I still own, I won't be around to worry about it!

Between Texas, Wyo, Guntucky & retired LEO.....I'm headin' up the list.

Probably been in a dossier somewhere since the Hoover days



As far as 4473s goes.....What about those pre-68 items.

Jest askin' for a friend.

///

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Ask Edward Snowden.

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Sure you did

If I were the gom't., I would just got to all the gun forums and simply copy the membership lists and ip addresses. DONE

J.

Having a concealed weapons permit isn’t proof you have a gun. My sister has a permit and no gun.

Having worked for the federal government for 33 of my 61 years I can assure you there isn’t “a list” and if there was it would be wrong and the guy with the password would be out on disability.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I searched YouTube for a process for fixing a fault with my car. I had my shopping list and went to Amazon. Interestingly when I searched for one item, it paired up the rest of my list without searching and I could just buy the package. When I turn on Netflix it tells me what I’ll like based on previous selections. If I “like” a photo of a GTO on Twitter, I get more pictures of GTO’s. The point is, they know. On my street, they could get guns out of every single house. There are not enough cops or military to confiscate every gun in the US. This isn’t New Zealand.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

I know plenty of people who got their ccw before they got a firearm and some still don't have one.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

You posted on this gun forum...you're already on the list.

Unless you've never browsed gun stuff on a computer/phone or only paid cash in off book firearms transactions...you're on a list.

At my LGS the BATF photo copied every page of their log. Saying it would speed up the inspection process and they would not need to be in their shop as long and interrupting business.

We are on the list if we have ever bought a gun legally. Probably on it if we've bought ammo or a hunting license.

Is that the “list” kept on the FBI commodore 64 network?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Taking a class and obtaining a license doesn't mean you actually own a gun.

Now if your state requires some sort of proof of gun ownership before they issue....well then you're already on some sort of list.

The BATFE 4473 form could be used to start a firearms registry. In Virginia, a CCW permit is not linked to any specific firearm. I have heard that in some states, the CCW permit is linked to and allows the bearer to only carry the firearms specified on their permit.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

If that's true, I suspect your LGS' records were a mess and the ATF was gathering material for a come-to-Jesus moment discussion about their license. ATF inspectors have one job, and it's not to track down gun owners. It's to check up on FFLs.

Your profile header shows a badge, so let me ask you this. Do you spend a lot of time and effort investigating crimes outside your jurisdiction or offenses you have no authority to prosecute? I bet ATF inspectors don't do that either.

Your phone is probably doing a better job of tracking your habits than anything. I'm used to the "How Did You Like Store X" messages popping up on my phone after I stop someplace. However one day my wife borrowed my truck and the "How Did You Like Store X" popped up for a location she was at with my truck 70 miles away. Last week I did a Google search on my work computer for a store I'd not visited for a while. A little message popped up saying "You Last Visited This Location 2 Years Ago". Now let me get my tin foil hat while you convince me my phone cannot track conversations if someone wanted to tap into that.

Think about moving to a free state.

If the Government ever wants your guns. You are toast. Even if "officially" you don't own any.

Do not worry about lists. Worry about your "supposed" representatives in the Government.

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Expect the unexpected

They already know everything about you and everything you are doing. The only surprise is that you think you'll be able to circumvent that oversight by avoiding one tiny part of their massive web of information sources.

The only safety we have is hiding in plain sight. Loud and proud gun owner, 2A advocate. Use it or lose it.

"Minority Report". Phillip Dick

Turn location services off on your phone. And apparently on your truck. At least they won't know you've been to the gun store.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

NSA knows everything you do, including what you buy, no matter how you pay, unless it's cash. Including 80% frames. So if they want to, they can track you down and know what you have and get it. This why, for example, in VA, a new law passed that you have to report lost or stolen guns to the police in 72 hrs. The boating accident thing won't work. Location services are always on for the service provider. The switch on your phone is just for commercial purposes. Oh, and you are on this forum and they know that too.

You can take THAT to the bank brother.

J.

As everyone else said, if someone really wants to find out if you own a gun, you're already screwed on that front. The good news is that as far as we know, nobody is bothering to make a list. Having had some federal employment, I can feel pretty safe saying that nobody has any interest in doing something they're not paid for, and they're not going to risk their benefits stepping on toes and being the person that made the list when it inevitably gets out and everyone is outraged.

Ok, what if we're wrong and there is the list? Well they got you already, but then what? We've seen the illegal NSA surveillance of 2001-2007, and weird stuff can happen again. So now S&W forum user johngalt is on a list. What then? Do you really think that the police are going to be kicking down your door and the doors of all the other CCW holders?

It rolls into something I've posted before on this subject. Even if guns were made 100% illegal tomorrow, it'll be just like we see in NY, NJ, and CT. You'll be told to register or turn in some stuff, you either will or wont do it, but nobody is kicking down your door unless you come up on their radar for something else. You'll keep em hidden in your house, not take em to the range, and if you get some other charge that results in your house being searched or you have a messy divorce, you'll get found out and catch a charge. Otherwise, you'll hang onto them, eventually die, and most of your kids will not want the hassle and turn them in, much as we see today with unregistered machineguns and whatnot.

Please share with us the name of the Government Agency that doesn’t keep “a list”.

Ownership can be traced through credit and debit card purchases as well as range memberships and range visits paid with cards and checks.

OR STOP THE GOVERNMENT FOR THAT MATTER...

There’s a reason they want a cashless society. It’s not for the reasons they give.

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Sure you did

Have you ever bought a hunting license? Have you ever used a credit card to buy ammo? Have you ever been in the military? Ever been in law enforcement?
There are so many ways to find gun owners not limited to a CCW or 4473.
Boomers are the craziest with their ideas of ‘flying under the radar’ They don’t know what to say when asked “Ever been in the military, are you collecting social security, drive a GM car, have a cell phone”?
If you answer yes to one or more of those “they” know who and where you are and you are not living off the grid lol.

I see no reason/excuse for anyone to NOT get a CCW permit. It is still a right(?) that we have. Big Brother has been watching us for years.
Iowa is working on Constitutional Carry but even if it does pass I will still maintain my permit. Along with Minnesota and Arizona non-resident permits.

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Super Snooper

People worry needlessly about being on a list or in a database for gun ownership. By the time it takes the feds to sort through just the Form 4473s they have from gun stores that have gone out of business (not even the ones from the shops still open) we will be debating how many gigawatts your handheld laser can legally emit before it is considered a military-grade weapon!

Frankly, if gun control were really the feds ultimate goal they would slowly regulate and legislate ammunition production and sales to the point of extinction; either that or get the private insurance industry involved by requiring liability insurance like you have on an automobile. If you have no ammunition or can't afford to own a gun the end result is still the same - and no master list or database needed.

Dude just get the permit.

The lists are already out there, NRA, gun club or shooting sport [sass-ipsc, etc memberships or local range memberships, magazine subscriptions, the data base at Midway, Brownells, Sarco etc, gun forums like this one plus every gun that you’ve ever bought from or through a ffl. The shortages and panic buying show even a blind politician the choke point of our hobby. Just enjoy our toys while we can.

If you register with the IRS to access your tax records online, they validate who you are in real-time using a mobile or landline phone number that has to be registered to you and a credit card that's in your name. In real-time. People debating about government lists are about 10 years (or more) too late.

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Vegan by proxy.

Here in CA, our permit lists the specific firearms (by serial #) authorized to carry. They have to be registered to you or your spouse.

It used to be if you were active-duty military stationed in CA, but a resident of another state, they would issue the permit to handguns not registered in CA, but the last time I knew of someone trying that they were denied. Of course the permit still listed serial #, so....

I was at it for 35 of my 57 years, most of with the feds, the rest at county and muni. The willingness of the American people to overestimate the capabilities of the Yankee Gov’t is limitless. If China and Russia ever figure out what my FBI friend and I internalized years ago, we’re screwed . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .