Got a email from my gun club for a pistol course.    What do you think about the underlined statement below.    

Class topics:
* On-range training in crucial handgun skills   * Warrior expert theory
* Counter ambush training               * Balance of speed and precision
* Stance and movement;                 * Grip and trigger control
* Presentation from ready and holster          * Shooting from retention and reloading
* Diagnosing your misses               * Defensive shooting drills

* This class is for semi-automatic pistols, NOT revolvers--
** 9mm ammunition cn be mde available if you need for this course**

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

I can see the logic behind limiting the type of handgun that's going to be dealt with. HOWEVER, I see several topics that are troubling either by their presence or their absence. Where's the section paying attention to your surroundings so you can be elsewhere when the festivities begin?

WR MOORE,
You nailed it!

A clear case of age discrimination. Contact our forum consigliere. I think
a class action lawsuit is needed.

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In Omnia Paratus

Translation: The instructor does not know how to shoot a revolver.

I supposed that situational awareness could be called "counter ambush training. Not quite sure what "Warrior Expert Theory" is but it sure sounds good.

Possibly true, but who knows!

A couple years back I commented about a young RO that said if he could run things he would not allow revolvers there. I tried talking with him but gave up. When I left i did tell him I was a RO/NRA instructor long before he was a twinkle in his fathers eyes.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

His/their playground, their rules. Guess you can't have a .40 or .45 either based on ammo availability.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Afraid this “ instructor” has not been around. Plenty of “ courses” have been taught over the years by Gentlemen far more experienced than he may be. Might sum it up with, “ ignorance is bliss”.

If the charge for this course is over $35.00 I would demand to see the individuals training qualifications . Meaning the certificates or letters from where the training was received. If it didn't include Gunsite or Thunder Ranch I wouldn't waste My time.

No mention of gun safety?

I don't find a problem here.

If I'm taking class to get a CDL (commercial driver license) I wouldn't expect to drive a VW Bug.

Find a class that applies to needs.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

This sounds a bit too tacticool for me.

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Tony

"Warrior expert" and counter ambush were the two that stood out to me. Could be totally legit with odd wording, or a bit tactilol.

As far as making it bottom-feeder only, I'd pretty much expect it and it's nice they clarified that from the get-go. Like it or not, the autoloader almost entirely replaced the revolver for military and police use, and constitute the vast majority of sales to others. The last 30+ years of practical pistol theory reflects this, and the instruction follows.As examples, think of how annoying it would be to have to instruct almost all of the class on reloading their Glock 17/M&P/P320/whatever, and then stopping the class to instruct one or two revolver holdouts, or developing courses of fire/drills around 17 round service pistols that are also viable with revolvers.

Revolver specific classes are a thing, and if you're someone who wants to stick it out with the wheelgun as a practical pistol, I'd imagine they'd be worth taking from someone skilled in it. I sure would if that was my jam, and if I have the disposable income and time when an instructor is in my area, I'll definitely do so just to get a feel for it (similarly, I'd also love to try a defensive shotgun class).

Is this billed as a basic course, or what? Many of the topics seem like basic, but then the are a couple that seem, at least, intermdiate if not advanced.

It would be intreresting to see what the think of as crucial skills since som ofthe other topics see to cover may crucial skills.

Seems something of a mishmash course.

If they cannot have non-9mm guns, how do they deal with the variety of 9mm guns? Glocks, CZ's, 1911, Beretta and others have differing features that come into play.

Probably only knows Glocks and AirSoft.

I qualified w/my Model 10 snub during LEOSA certification a couple of years ago. The only problem was reloading, using speedloaders, before the computer-timed target faced away from me.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Robertwalsh,

I think you are right on the situational awareness. Like you not real sure what this "Warrior Expert Theory" is, would a definition though.

Dave19118a2,

Most of the instructors that I see offering these courses think they are "somebody special". I don't teach anyone except close family or a few friends who ask. My "Bona Fides" are I am a USMC Combat Pistol & Shotgun Instructor (course was set up with Jeff Cooper and our instructors were trained a Gunsite) and I attended the FBI Firearms Instructor's course. In this case I would like to see what the guy is teaching.

Maybe he offers a revolver course. We trained our personnel with revolvers in a separate course. It was given after the auto course.

AJ

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I'd ask what the instructor's credentials are, and the ultimate goal of the course.

Maybe the firearm type limitation is due to the courses of fire being more than 6 rounds? Maybe the courses are timed, including reloading; unless you're very good, reloading a revolver , even with speed loaders, is a bit slower than on a semiauto and they want to "level the playing field". IDK, but the statement about making 9mm ammo available for those who need it doesn't take into account that a lot of semi's aren't 9mm, and many who shoot them don't have 9mm guns.

I would hope the "counter ambush training" teaches you how to recognize one and avoid it.

Meh. Standard stuff even with the "high speed" ninja warrior philosophy thrown in.

The instructor is probably less than 45 years old and was raised in the semi-auto era. Or has been trained only with Suarez. He (or she) does not understand revolvers and would not be competent teaching them.

Revolver shooters on the line will run dry sooner than semi auto students. This will likely slow down class flow during drills requiring providing covering fire for reload and movement drills. Further, instructors would have to provide actual skills training to revolver shooters, which they likely don't possess.

Revolvers have utility in civilian defensive carry. We may not like it, but the auto pistol rules defensive shooting today. Taking this local course will be cheaper than going to Arizona or Oregon for training in how to run a revolver defensively. Borrow a plastic 9mm and a strong side holster without throwing up in your mouth. Take the course, learn what's worth learning, then carry and practice with what you want.

Or just spend the money on Thunder Ranch DVD's and train on your own.

Well the e mail WAS for a "pistol" course....Although my interest in the "Warrior Expert Theory" portion is indeed piqued.

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Forum consigliere

Want a revolver class? Go to HITS in Texas and train with Nyeti.

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NHI, 10-8.

I’m afraid very few members of my club are ready for “ Warrior expert theory” and “Counter ambush training”.

I work the pistol range and have taught CPL classes there. Far too many members are horrible shots and really need more basic instruction and range time.

I’ve had members show up to shoot with 9mm ammo for their .380 and .38 Super ammo for their .38 Special. I had a regular shooter show up with a police give-away trigger lock on his carry gun. Unfortunately, he lost the key! We had a case of those locks in the cabinet and I found one that opened his lock.

If we taught an advanced course, it should include:
* Tactical hearing aids
* Ammunition selection for dummies
* Your cane as an impact weapon

If the course required any running, we’d need paramedics on standby.

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"I also cook."

Another popular offering is brown or white gravy on mashed taters

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Forum consigliere

I'm surprised so many of you seem puzzled by the wording of the OP's posted class content.

It is straight out of United States Concealed Carry Association (USCCA) Defensive Shooting Fundamentals Level 2 training.

I don't see a problem with this. From what I believe, there is pretty much only one way to reload a semi-auto pistol and the method is nearly identical for every one out there. As for revolvers, however, there are speed-loaders, speed-strips and single-round feeding by hand and the instructors don't want to be taking up too much time having to individualize each student's instruction depending on what equipment they decide to bring with them.

There are a couple of methods of reloading a weapon. We taught "Speed Reloads" when you are in a gunfight and need to get reloaded and back into the fight as quickly as possible. Dump the empty mag and move on with the fight. We also taught "Tactical Reloads" this is where you need to hang onto the magazine for future reloading and use. The empty mag goes back into the mag pouch. For the average individual I support the "Speed Reload" method, as they would be in need of rounds quickly and if they can when it is all over they can go back and pick of their mags if/when the police let them.....after all it will be a crime scene.

Like I wrote before we taught the revolver course separately from the auto course. Once the student was versed in both disciplines they could shoot the same course of fire with either weapon. I was teaching for the most part young 0311 (Infantry) to shoot in a gunfight for real. These were Fleet Anti-Terrorist Security Team (F.A.S.T.) members.

Moms & Dads, Grandmothers & Grandfathers and the like can not be made into a gunfighter. You can however, teach them the safe & proper way to handle a weapon, how to shoot it in a stressful situation if needed and how to reload it as quickly as possible if needed.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

That was shown in the Email I got. I only C&P a little bit of it to put on here!

Here is all I got other than the club name!


sive Shooting Fundamentals Level 1

Defensive Shooting Fundamentals Level 1 September 26, 2021 (8:30 to 5:00)
Defensive Shooting Fundamentals Level 1 October 9, 2021 (8:30 to 5:00)
Defensive Shooting Fundamentals Level 1 November 13, 2021 (8:30 to 5:00)

This national training program from the US Concealed Carry Association will train your mind and body to respond to life-threatening situations. Build the foundation you need to understand intuitive defensive shooting and deadly force decision making. Unlock the lifesaving mindset of the warrior expert theory that will help you guess your attackers next move with ease. Discover how you can develop the ability to apply your shooting skills on demand, without anticipation, while trying to save your own life or the lives of others. Uncover the drills you must know to prepare and prevail even under the most dangerous of circumstances.

The recommended price for this course is $280.00.
Your discounted cost would be $180.00 ($30.00 for the e-learning, book, and certificate) ($150.00 course fee) (A savings of $100.00)

Class size is limited to first 8 students (First Come, First Served)



         Class topics:
* On-range training in crucial handgun skills   * Warrior expert theory
* Counter ambush training               * Balance of speed and precision
* Stance and movement;                 * Grip and trigger control
* Presentation from ready and holster          * Shooting from retention and reloading
* Diagnosing your misses               * Defensive shooting drills

* This class is for semi-automatic pistols, NOT revolvers
** 9mm ammunition cn be mde available if you need for this course**

Use the link below to Register.


Hopefully all is now clarified!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

I consulted with my revolver. We decided to pass.

That seems like a lot of content to cover in what is probably 7 hours of class time, allowing for lunch and breaks. Some of it also sounds, to me anyway, a little to “tacti-cool”.

As far as no revolvers, I’m not offended. Every time I show up to qualify with my revolver I get the distinct impression the range officers wish I’d retire my revolver, or just plain retire. Trying to teach basic skills to a mixed group of pistols and revolvers would be a challenge, especially in a limited amount of time.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

I wonder if he's worried of the safety with reloading revolvers. You have to point it DOWN, toward your feet, to allow gravity to do its thing, LOL. You just have to remind him that the gun is completely inert with its wheel opened, LOL.

I love watching retired officers who qualify with revolvers at the HR218 class. They are always extremely accurate shooters. Unfortunately as the years have gone by there are are fewer revolver shooters.

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I like Ike.

Back in the day when I taught an Combat Auto and a Combat Revolver class these were taught separately. We gave a eight hour a day, five day auto course. The students fired over 1000 rounds (the course was designed to 1000 rounds, we would give extra rounds to those who needed the extra help). When we gave the Revolver course it was eight hours a day also, but only for three days, if I remember correctly it was 300 rounds (and again we gave out extra ammo to those who needed it). However, these classes went way beyond what the average individual needs to know.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Just about every time I qualify at least one guy comes up and tells me he had never seen someone use a speed loader before. They are usually surprised that a revolver can be reloaded quickly. Some of these guys have been on the job 10-15 years and never saw a revolver in action.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

I use to win money from guys who did not believe that I could empty a revolver faster than they could an auto.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The instructor probably figured that revolver owners already knew that stuff.

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What, me worry?

I don't know how long speedloaders have been around, but it seemed they weren't very popular until the early '70s. With practice, however, revolvers can be loaded fairly quickly without speedloaders.

Upon reading this initially, I felt that a "cover letter" wasn't included, which the OP provided later in the thread.

Honestly, while I like my revolvers, I can appreciate limiting the class to semi-autos. When I planned to attend the first Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit in '19, I planned to use a revolver until I was told that the courses of fire sometimes required more than 6 rounds and didn't allow reloading. When looking at the clientele, it would be difficult for some of the challenged participants to effect a reload (all participants had some degree of physical challenge). The course of fire was scored "time plus penalty".

Sometimes, the course of fire just isn't revolver friendly. My problem with the course is the counter ambush training and warrior expert theory. In my mind, utilizing counter ambush training negates every claim of shooting for self-defense. Perhaps warrior expert theory means mindset?

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Judge control not gun control!

Humm, just what is” warrior expert theory”?

OK, while the labeling of course content (not to mention the group itself) may be driven by some marketing concept, I also feel several section titles are problematical. "Warrior Expert" can be used as a substantial club in the legal arena. I don't know what top tier instructors are charging these days, but going cheap on training can result in astronomical legal fees at a later date. I received a substantial amount of work related training-and instructors certs- in this area, which may account for my cynicism.

It appears that "Warrior Expert Theory" is nothing more than "you have to be trained extensively to be effective" and "situational awareness". Put it all in a wrapper, brand it, and throw around a lot of cool sounding words like "Dynamic Critical Incident" to make you sound sophisticated.

"Warrior Expert Theory, through Frequent and REALISTIC training once can learn to use the power of recognition to respond more efficiently in the context of a Dynamic Critical Incident."

In short, a "Theory" (a misuse of that word if you ask me but makes it sound all scientific) that you have to constantly train, developed by a guy that sells training.

I have to agree from a cursory perspective. It seems this type of course and its instructors and adherents lean far more in the direction of gunfighting theory and exercises with self-defense being secondary. Maybe the instructors and participants already shoot in organized combat games, so perhaps this is an influencing factor.

"Warrior expert theory" ... no shortages of such theory on many Internet forums but most of it ostensibly comes from frustrated non-experts who will never pass up an opportunity to argue or preach their gospel to those with time to waste. Maybe they just need to get out and shoot more.

Here's what you need for your course --

https://caneselfdefenseuniversity.com/

"Warrior expert theory" What's That???

I would guess that "Situational Awareness" and "Mind Set" would be a better name for the class. Like I wrote before, you are not teaching these folks to be gunfighters, just trying to help them defend themselves.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

So, just What did Col. Cooper teach???????

Did not go to Gunsite. The course I went to was taught by Marines at a Marine Corps school. Cooper did have a hand in designing our course and trained our instructors. So from what I have read of his writings and what we were taught, I think Situational Awareness and Mind Set would be close.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

My point. “ New” is not really new, just rehashed in today’s language.

New is usually in technology. There are probably a few advance in the way things are done, but like you say they put it into the way things are stated nowadays.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I too would like to see the instructors credentials with the info that's provided, before I pass judgement.

As far as separating autos and revolvers... ...At my department we still have some revolver holdouts and it does slow down qualification significantly.

I have also been to a few professional on my own dime training courses and it does take a bit of work and a lot of single stack magazines to keep up with the double stacks.

Having some experience of LE training in revolvers as well as some competition experience with same, I can appreciate how the different systems don't really mesh together well.

There will be a lot of down time for each group while the different procedures are covered and reinforced (as people try to crawl, walk and run) that has to be accepted or decided against.

I would rather have one training course for one system and another course for the other.