The problems with the "What about multiple attackers?" argument are the following:

For a normal boring John Smith citizen out in public in the US, without any threat enhancers (NOT off-duty LE with an obligation to "get involved", NOT owner/staff of a high risk business, NOT known to be carrying large sums of cash, NOT having other reasons to be specifically targeted, NOT living in the Favela), how often do they experience multiple threat attackers?

If such a citizen is accosted, how often do the perpetrators continue to press the attack once it is determined that the "victim" is armed, willing to shoot, or actually shooting back? From everything I have seen, the "scatter like roaches" factor is 99%+.

Until armed citizens are dying in the streets from a lack of capacity or lack of speedy reloads, the debate is rather moot. Given the large number of DGU events per year, these issues should statically manifest themselves if it truly was a problem.

Caveats:

Everybody should carry what they want, just don't think your EDC of a high-capacity polystriker with two extra extended mags makes you "better equipped" or "more serious" about defensive carry.

Nothing here should be interpreted as support for any legal restrictions on what can be possessed or carried for armed defense.

"What about Dicken in the Mall?" Yes- Mr. Dicken fired 10 rounds and hit the perp with 8 at extended distance with a G19 using ball ammo. Given his demonstrated skill level, I suspect a similar positive outcome if he would have been armed with a 3" Model 10 and 135 gr Gold Dots. His experience is more a lesson on the benefits of tactical marksmanship rather than capacity.

My personal typical EDC platforms vary from 5 to 8+1 capacity, are carried with a reload, and are usually complemented with a micro-BUG. In high NPE scenarios, the BUG may be the only thing carried.

With regards to the 642, my only preference would be for the 442 and it's easier to conceal qualities in our dry climate. Somebody in a humid area may differ

My hands are already in my pockets!

Totally disagree. I have been shooting handguns 60+ years. People are very different and one size does not work for everybody.

In Law Enforcement I have seen people fail with every handgun platform available. You carry what you shoot best. Truly the best shooters on the street is the ones who own one (sometimes two) handgun. The majority of shooters who own 20+ handguns fall into the "jack of all trades and master of none" principle. JMHO.

True that. It was cold today.

Just a side note. Have you ever been stopped by the police with your hands in your pockets?

I think we actually agree. My statement was intended to only be valid if Mr. Dicken was familiar and proficient with his Model 10, like he was with the G19.

Carry whatever you're comfortable with. If it's a 5 shots in the pocket, go with that. If you can swing it, throw in a speed strip or speed loader.

When I'm just wondering around the house, I have a Glock 43x loaded with 16 rounds in an IWB kydex holster.

When I'm out in public, it's usually a mid to full size semi-auto backed-up by a J frame.

That's what's comfortable to me.

If you feel you want more capacity, you may want to step-up to something like the Glock 43x or Sig 365 IWB or AWB. Both of these guns will be smaller than your G26 and offer at least 10+1 capacity. If on a budget, the Taurus GX4 is pretty small and offers 11+1 in the standard mag.

Contrary to the 5 is enough crowd, there has been times when 5 isn't enough. But being part of that statistic would be very rare.

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Watch & Pray

IFF they shoot regularly. Most of the people I've known with one gun, run a box of ammo through it when new and never shoot it again.

Good with many different tools or excellent with just one? I'd rather have a neighbor who is the former than the latter.

Good for you. Regrettably, many don't see things that way. Good shooting skills are unimportant to many people.

Having lots of magazine capacity, lots of ammo, one or two extra guns, some sort of miscellaneous gadgetry, a knife or two, a flashlight (and maybe a spare), a tactical pen (thought that was a joke when I first heard of such a year ago) and possibly some survival food (stuffed in their underwear because there was no room anywhere else) is important to many. And that's for a non-law enforcement concealed carry (hobbyist?) waiting for the big imaginary gunfight with multiple evil and deadly criminal swine.

Again, put shooting prowess aside. It's more important for some to be able to quote statistics and know the actual name of a person involved in a publicized shooting incident and quote that person's name on a regular basis in addition to worshipping at their shrine.

Instead of developing expertise in shooting, some folks develop a good strong sense of paranoia and worry about things that needn't be worried about.

If you can carry a bag full of tricks on a daily basis and also shoot with a high level of skill, that's something good, but from reading these posts and many others that deal with this sort of thing, the bag of tricks and reasonably good shooting expertise are often not found together.

These weapons are tools that match the fighting philosophy that explains and justifies their use. I can talk about this at length but people don't usually appreciate my doing that. I tend toward wordy pedantry on any subject.

In short, with a five shot snub nose revolver, you intend for each and every round to count.
You are expecting one assailant. Five rounds is more than adequate.
You are determined to use any means necessary including empty-hand skills or improvised weapons to resist the threat. It ain't all just gun!
You know that guns in movies are imaginary magic charms and that they do not work that way in real life, therefore, you intend to fire once perhaps twice and then assess and adapt.

Now about range and barrel length, I appreciate your honesty, but take it to the range and start moving the target back. Won't you come back here and tell us what happened? We all might be gratified to learn that your arm has a longer reach than you thought, but either way you want to know where the thing works and where it does not and fight accordingly.

A high capacity 9mm semi auto equips for a different fighting style. You may say that your Glock will be fine either way, you'd be right.
If ya got a pointy stick, learn to win with it.

One other thought. On this fine forum, for which I really am thankful, if you say anything at all about how a gunfight might go down and hence prepare for that, there is at least one nincompoop here who will accuse you of being a gunfighter wannabe. Please ignore him.

Please correct me, as I am not the expert. This is the part of the subject in which I am most interested.

Kind regards!
BrianD

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

Seems that the only people asking this question are old white guys.
Show up at a gunfight with a J frame around here and they'll take away your gansta card. If you ain't carryin' GLOCK-you ain't gangsta'!

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Forum consigliere

I don't understand. The 642 and 442 have the same form factor. Both have aluminum frames. The former has a stainless cylinder and barrel and the latter has those parts in blue. I have both and they both drop into the same pockets.

I was in the British army and we trained for defense against bananas.

My life is pretty safe I guess. My most frequent carry piece is a Pre-38 Airweight Bodyguard bought from a pawn shop that's the same age as me. Anodizing all worn off, had rust spots on barrel....under $200. It's about 3 years younger than me. It was good enough for some police officer for decades I suspect it's good enough for me. Like Skywalker's 'Light Saber'....an archaic but elegant weapon. When I travel more than a couple hours from my house I do take a second pistol. It's the latest Blamfire 6,000...(actually a S&W 99) with buncha extra mags. In case TEOWAWKNI happens while I'm away from home. I try to avoid places where I feel there may be a shootout. Going into a theater though for some reason makes me think head on swivel, identify lane of fire. Churches, if I went, would make me feel the same. In TX something like 10% have a concealed carry permit. The hoodlums generally keep the shootings among themselves.

Purely a hiding in your pocket visual thing. Blue/black versus silver colored. Very minor concern, but noticeable with baggy cargo shorts pockets.

I have never worn baggy cargo shorts. My shorts are fitted and tailored.

Fair enough. We are definitely opposites in that regard. My standard summer attire of t-shirt or camp shirt, flat bill or ranger roll ball cap, cargo shorts and either Chacos or flips is probably different than yours. Hoodie and beanie as necessary.

If it's not, I was having a bad day already.

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John 3:16 .

Around here it seems the Taurus seem to be the choice for our notable people. The G2 and G3 series are quickly taking over the PT series of guns after all the Millenium Pros seem to have been impounded as evidence.

I may wear a watch cap but never a "beanie." Beanies have propellers on them. I will also never wear a "hoodie." "Hoodie" was originally a term applied to hooded lightweight jerseys worn by girls. It saddens me that that men have adopted that term. Next, guy will be calling their undershorts "panties."

Your style isn't probably different than mine, it most definitely is different.

A 642 is with me 90% of the time along with situational awareness (having grown up in the New Orleans area). I also occasionally have capacity anxiety generated either from local events or for no reason at all. I don't think there's anything wrong in feeling that. I have a Glock 48 with extra mag for when CA rears it's head. I train with both.

Whenever I am wearing a jacket, my 642 is in my right hand jacket pocket. It allows me to have my hand in my pocket, gun pointing at a suspected baddie without needing to brandish.

In a worse-case scenario, I have the ability to shoot from my pocket.

In a nutshell, yes the 642 still makes sense. Good post!

We often lose sight of the fact that a 642 (or other snubnose J-frame .38) remains a snubnose J-frame .38. While there are many variations of the basic setup, the differences are slight, especially when it comes to developing the necessary skill to shoot one well.

Some may be able to tell a difference in recoil between a lightweight version and a steel-framed gun. I shoot both types regularly and find recoil to be significant though not necessarily punishing with either frame type. Others, who also shoot these guns regularly, may have different experiences.

It's good to have choices so that we as shooters can get exactly what we want among many variations, but we might be deceiving ourselves when we single out a particular J-frame snubnose version as really having distinct advantages over another model of the same basic gun.

J frame is still a great carry gun BUT only if you shoot it a LOT and master it. The same thing applies to ALL SD handguns. The guy that know how to use a J and routinely runs a couple hundred rounds a month through it is far better armed than the dude with the high cap 9 with 4extra mags who shoots 100 rds a year. The J is an experts gun and fairly tough to master, but if you know it well it will do the job.

Alrighty then. My guess is that I am probably significantly younger than yourself based on that linguistic assessment.

Anyway, make on point- What do people think about the 642/442 "Pro" variants? I think they may already be cut for some sort of moon clip? My only exposure to moon clips is for my M1917 Colt, and I have decided I like Auto-Rim cartridges better.

Yes back then and now still a viable defense pistol

From the same perspective, I'm wondering if you ever asked anyone to produce ID without reaching into their pockets and where you think punks think citizens keep the car keys and wallet they just demanded.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

To each his or her own regarding selection of a firearm, but pocket carry, something a J frame is known for, has a lot of advantages over any other form of concealed carry in a lot of circumstances. I believe that is one reason the J frame remains popular. As Peyronie said above, a J frame can be shot from inside a pocket. If someone approaches you while you are pumping gas or just generally out and about, you can discreetly slip your hand into you pocket to “be prepared” as the Boy Scouts used to say. While admittedly not as prepared as having a gun drawn at low ready, still (in my thinking) much better than having to draw a gun when someone you thought was innocuous but turned out not to be is at bad breath distance. You can use your quick draw but I prefer to already have a hand on my defensive weapon, and a J frame is hard to beat in that scenario. And, brandishing or pointing a gun at someone will not be an issue. In most cases, they will never know how prepared you were to defend yourself.

They still say that.

This is the essence of the debate. These conversations always remind me of fire extinguishers. Anybody who has ever encountered the frustration of trying to put out a fire with too small of a fire extinguisher will understand the analogy. Carry what you want, but unless you can always predict what fire you are going to have to put out it may be prudent to not just have a stove top fire extinguisher at hand.

That thought process is why new houses in some areas are required to have sprinkler systems.

I've had one stovetop fire and that was when I was maybe 11 (55 years ago). It required putting the lid on the pan to snuff it.

In the gun world, to be fully prepared, you need to carry an AR in a racket bag and at least ten loaded magazines to be ready for the worst that can happen. Hell of a way to live.

I hear of people that plan for the worst case and leave suppressed rifles in their car with loaded mags so they can “fight back to the rifle” when in reality, you’re far more likely to have your car burglarized and have a criminal steal that gun than need to use it against the criminal.

Thank you for the input.
The difference in my thinking would be that I am saying that the tool and strategy and skill all get implemented by the thinking and preparation of the fighter. Because I am carrying a short-range low-capacity weapon, I am going to have to close with my target. I know what the tool can do, so I am going to get where I need to be and do what I need to do to use that tool effectively.

We like to watch "mag dump videos". Over and again, we see a cop, or a defender dump a whole mag or two with no effect. He thrusts the gun forward in the general direction of the threat and flexes the trigger finger until all ammo is depleted. He does what he believes is supposed to work. And in a prime-time, crime drama, that IS what does work!

I try to continue with your fire extinguisher analogy, and I think we all understand that we cannot argue or prove from an analogy, we just use it to illustrate our thinking. I watched my neighbor's house burn down and noted how the firefighters used their hoses. After it was all over, I asked why they had sprayed the water through the fire at one stage, instead of directly on to the burning wood. He said, "We had to lower the temperature of the fire." They also sprayed water on the outside of the next house. That was obvious they were saving the whole neighborhood. First house was already gone. I respect them and their knowledge and I ain't been to their school. Your tiny kitchen fire extinguisher ought rather to be used not directly on the flaming pot itself but to keep the fire from spreading. I use the tool to do what the tool can do.

What I make clear here is that we gun people speak about the equipment we carry as if that is decisive in a conflict. I learned from the "Jeff Cooper Commentaries" why this is the way it is, and I understand and accept it.

I say again:
"A gunfight is more fight than gun!"

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I don’t shoot J frames very well, but well enough for its intended purpose. I carried one on subways in the 90’s in NYC. Never needed to fire a shot but always felt comfortable with it in my front pocket, ready to shoot through if I need to. I still carry my 640 every now and then. I still feel protected when I do.

Yeah. Some people are nuts. There was a guy in another forum who said he carries 2 Beretta 92 9MM’s with spare mags(same model gun so same magazines), and in his trunk he had a Beretta CX4 Storm with an Aimpoint, a freaking ballistic vest, plus a first aid kit with tourniquets and Quick Clot.

Though it is extremely difficult to get reliable information, I tried to study the shooting at the Greenwood Mall in detail. Eli Dicken will NOT talk about it. His lawyer made one short speech about it and has said nothing more, instead promising to withhold further until the lawyers all get done with it, so we may never know. I wanted to discover what was DECISIVE in the fight. It was a fight with two fighters involved.

It is true that he fired his first shot from 40 yards away confirmed by his attorney and the video. I think he shot twice braced, and these were the two misses. He then closed moving to the second pillar. I think this was around 22 yards away, he fired several times braced, and hit all. He then moved closer I think approximately twelve or fifteen yards and fired again all hits. He moved very near and I think fired two more both hits.

It is my opinion that the first two shots, both misses were decisive in the final outcome. Because the AssHWAG was determined to retreat to that bathroom and ambush any LEO's that followed, that was his battle plan, when he realized he was taking fire, he left off his attacking of innocents. The shots from the second pillar stopped his retreat to the bathroom. Subsequent shots ended his life or were unnecessary depending on which wound or wounds were fatal.

We cannot say that ten shots were necessary or decisive, because we will never know which rounds hit where, from what range. To me it is conceivable that a revolver could have been used in this scenario though it would have required a running reload as the hero defender was moving from the second pillar to the third and closer firing location.

Please correct me with my thanks. I am not the expert here. Sorry I cannot link my sources so TIFWIW. I share with you my belief though I know I can't prove it to you. I can say and I think you will also find that it is not true that Dicken stood and fired 10 rounds from 40 yards with 8 hits.

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

I'm with .455 Hunter here. The black 442 is low key for concealed carry whereas a 642 is more of a range gun, shiny and bright. The humid environmental argument is valid for those who are allergic to maintenance.

OK, now that I've offended most of you,here's my take. I love J frames, been carrying and training with them for just over fifty years. As the dept. RO, I was shooting multi target close combat drills a couple of times a week. Free bullets, yeah. So I am very comfortable with just five rounds.

Yes, I own a Sig 365 and a G19 too. Great for the zombie apocalypse. But I like very light and very concealed. So, required to qualify with what you carry under LEOSA/HR218 there's no zombie guns. There is my 442 and a G42. That's it. I prefer the Smith due to long known reliability and extensive training. The Glock comes out in summer and still mostly in a OWB holster under a Hawaiian shirt, it's a NE cop thing.

The pocket holster is used almost exclusively for motorcycle travel. My zombie guns wait for range day with the other geezers. The J frame fits a very personal comfort zone.

I totally agree with Max-BB.

He's either the "Warrior Poet" or Massad Ayoob.

It must. Rod Garrett and Lipsey’s released a new model.

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Two Handguns every day

And for some reason I want one

Actually, when that sort of load out was mentioned to Mas maybe decades ago, his response was along the lines of " If I thought I needed a load out like that, I'd stay home".

J-frames make fine BUGs but as primary?

No way.

The purpose of these small revolvers is not as a main concealed carry gun. There are so many better options these days. It’s not 1950 anymore.

Extremely reliable high capacity .380s and 9mms that are just as light and compact as a 5-shot snub. We’re living in the golden age of carry. And a J-frame is long obsolete.

My normal carry is a 642. I pocket carry, the 642 is one of the few guns that you can get a grip on in a pocket and still draw it. I have an LC9, can carry in a pocket but if you get a firing grip on it you can't draw it. If I'm gonna carry in a belt holster it can be anything, prolly a Lightweight Commander. Need a spare magazine it an Auto in caes it falls out.

I too see folks who buy one, shoot it a few times and think alls well. The fact that a person owns a blaster and multiple magazines doesn’t mean they are “armed” anymore than owning a guitar makes them a musician🙄

A gun is not a talisman.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

I carry an m32 quite a bit and do not feel disadvantaged. I do carry two Jstrips .

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

Got a G3c myself , they are good guns but would be better if they had an aluminum frame. They are cheap and reliable and armadillos hate them.

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

These best carry gun threads exceed USPS, 9v45, what’s for bears, etc by a wide margin.

Having carried a j-frame for 50+ years, here are my thoughts. I started as an LEO in the revolver era. Just about everyone carried a Smith 38 with a 4-6" barrel, and a j-frame for backup and off duty. I fired those weapons literally tens of thousands of rounds. If you want proficiency with a 2", you must practice....a lot!

For me, I'm now 73 yrs old and my hands are struggling with arthritis. I find the slides on my 9mm's getting hard to manipulate. I still have full confidence in my old M49, even though only 5 rds. I shoot it well and often. I cast my own wadcutters and shoot it at least 400 rds a month. Ringing steel at 25 yds is not a problem. It is easy to conceal in any clothing so goes everywhere with an additional speed loader.

As far as 'multiple attackers' , you won't get all of them before they get you regardless what you're carrying, so I'll use my 5 rds to hopefully get away.

So, yes a j-frame is plenty viable in today's environment. Carry what you are most comfortable with and shoot the best. Then get out and practice! Just an old dinosaur's opinion.

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