Excellent in-the-real-world post.

I suspect someone would have to search long and hard to find more than a couple of cases where an ordinary citizen needed more than 4 or 5 shots, even against multiple assailants, to successfully deal with a bad situation.

Another dinosaur here. I agree with you 100%. I’d go so far as to guess than in the event of a “multiple assailant” event in most cases they’d scatter like a covey of quail when the first on drops in front of them. Cowards seek ro prey on those perceived as weaker than themselves. They draw courage from being “tough” in front of their homies. When it begins to look like the “victim” isn’t going to cower in terror but might actually hurt Them hunting another, easier, target suddenly becomes a good idea. Seen it happen twice. First time five thuggies let by a bigmouth with a ballbat had a quick change of heart when I drew my old PPK. Never pointed it at them or said a word. Just made it clear by my actions that I wasn’t going down without a fight. Bigmouth raised his hands and backed off, repeating “it’s cool, it’s cool”. Hyenas run in packs.

I cannot cite my sources so TIFWIW, but I wanted to know for myself about this.
Here are some things I learned and please correct me anyone:

-There is no way to tell how many rounds were needed unless you can determine which rounds in an encounter were the ones that hit.
-People who are carrying fewer rounds fight in a different way.
-Handgun rounds work by causing blood loss and drop in blood pressure unless there is a hit to the spine or brain, which is a matter of considerable luck. There will be a passing of time while the effect is coming on. All the additional rounds after the effective one may be considered superfluous (if you can tell which one was THE one.)
-Most people do not aim or control the muzzle in any meaningful way. I hate to call it "spray and pray" because there is no prayer involved!
-Those who can aim and hit something, those who espouse "shot placement", expect their skill on the range to be decisive in a fight. Sure. Fine, but they still miss because the target moves. IOW I am trying for a head shot but really just hit the ear. Stand still please!

Ellifritz found in his work that IF the fight was decided in one round, then it was the one or two rounds alone. But if more were needed it was the capacity of the gun.

Chris Baker, LuckyGunner.com has a video about this you might like.

Kind regards!
BrianD

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

I'll carry my 342, very similar to a 642, if I'm not carrying my CS9D.

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AKA- Da Plummah
CANCER SUCKS!

Makes perfect sense to me. Your mileage may vary.

Enclosed hammer revolvers have many advantages to small semi auto pistols. You can shoot the gun empty from a pocket, something a semi auto can’t do. You can jam it up into someone who is in top of you, something a semi auto can’t do. You can load whatever you want in it, from mild to wild, and it will function, something a semi auto can’t do. Reloads for me have never been a consideration. I’m not carrying extra ammo. Capacity is over rated, I’m not John Wick.

If you don’t like them, then fine. Don’t buy one. They’re not for everybody and they’re not obsolete. I will admit to shooting better with a semi auto, but at 7 yards all 5 go into a paper plate. Good enough for what they’re made for.

My 642 with CT grips isn't going anywhere. I carry it mostly as a BUG. But, when serving papers, it is in my front pocket with my hand on the grip. I can get to it faster that way than my EDC, which is a Sig 365XL in a Milt Sparks Versamax II at 8 o'clock. The 642 also gets dropped in the coat pocket for quick trips to the grocery store. It's gotten a lot of use, but wouldn't be without it.



Sometimes, one of these 2 girls ride along for the quick trips to the grocery store.

I defiantly think so. I've carried some form of a J frame since 2006 as a bug at work. Off Duty it depends on where and what i'm doing. But for most things I do a J frame is perfectly adequate. Training with it and situational awareness are most important. In alot of situations A snubby might actually be the only gun that can prevail.

I carry a 6 round Shield 45 or a 5 round Taurus 85 (my Ruger LCR is being worked on). I own the Shield Plus, Hellcat, several traditional G26ish in size double stack subcompacts. I still don't prefer them and rarely carry them. I do not feel any anxiety over getting into a long drawn out gun fight that I see thugs and drug dealers in Chicago and in bad parts of Philly getting into on YouTube clips and in the news.

My thoughts is for you to take a break from social media, "if it bleeds it leads" mainstream media, and other fear-mongering for profit information sharers. You'll be a lot less fearful and a lot more realistic about your actual personal threat level.

[QUOTE=rockquarry;141908513]... Just my personal experience, but I've found that regular practice with a J-frame at 25 yards has helped me to shoot better with larger guns.

J-frames are very unforgiving when it comes to grip, firmness of grip, sighting, and adapting and becoming accustomed to a stout trigger pull (or at least it it feels that way) in a small, lighweight revolver. Consistency with all the above factors helps develop a shooter's skill. ...QUOTE]


Yep. Pretty much.

Shooting any of the J-frames demands more of the shooter. The lighter ones demand the most.

The very attributes that makes the venerable 5-shot snub so handy and practical also tends to make it harder to shoot them. In the heyday of service revolvers, even average skilled shooters of full-size revolvers found it harder to master the smaller 5-shot snubs.

However, the payoff for working to acquire superior DA/DAO skills using the smaller J's is that it generally becomes even easier to run the larger guns.

Kind of like how working to master shooting .357MAG made shooting .38SPL easier regarding controllability, accuracy and speed.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Yes.

However, everything about lawfully carrying a handgun for self defense is a compromise. The trick is to balance the compromise as much to your advantage as is humanly possible, for the most probable circumstances anticipated as possible.

The principle of TANSTAAFL applies. (For anyone who didn't grow up as a fan of Heinlein, that means There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

I started out as a young cop carrying a service revolver, and that included me picking up some steel 5-shot snubs in those early LE years. My later dalliance with compact and subcompact pistols caused me to put the snubs into the safe for a while. Then, one day I ordered my first Airweight, an early 642-1, when I read that it was rated for a steady diet of +P.

Naturally, I had to dust off and practice my DA revolver skills, and the fact that the Airweight was lighter than my steel J's added some spice to the mix when shooting +P. I invested a lot of range work in it, though, and at the same time working to master the lighter J added some polish to my other shooting. After several cases of ammunition and a fair amount of trigger time (while serving as one of our instructors), my DA revolver skills felt refreshed and even improved.

Nowadays, I have a couple 642-1's and a couple M&P 340's and a 37DAO Airweight. My steel J's once again tend to spend more time in the safe.

Now, while I'd only delegate a J-frame to the role of being a Secondary weapon if I were still working either in uniform or as a detective, or a go-to-meeting or court weapon in plainclothes ... I'd still pocket-holster one off-duty . That said, the J-frame remains a primary retirement CCW choice. Why? I have much more control over the places I go and where my activities take me. I still employ the risk assessment skills I learned and developed over the decades I had a badge.

Nowadays, I don't care to hang a larger or heavier weapon on my hip all the time. Sometimes, sure, but not nearly as often. That's why I kept all of my 9's, .40's, .45's and some mid-sized .357MAG's.

One of 642's or M&P 340's typically gets the nod. For a situation where even one of them is a bit chunky or too large? I have a couple of LCP's. Yes, those took some trigger time on the range to acclimate to running them, too. They can slip into some pockets (holstered) which are either too tight or too short to easily conceal one of my J's, though.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

BTW.

In the same vein of thinking as as TANSTAAFL, here's another thing I keep min the back of my mind, remembered from my days both as a young cop and then also as a senior firearms instructor ...

You may well run out of time, before you run out of ammunition.

Many factors play into this, such as general awareness, mental preparation & mindset, sufficiently recurrent practice to keep the rust & dust from forming, to list a few.

As much as the modern trend toward favoring ammunition capacity seems to have become a trend, there's never going to be any guarantees we'll have the time to use it, let alone effectively use it.

If someone really digs having capacity as their security blanket, that's all well and good. Just don't lose sight of how critical it may prove regarding getting that first accurate hit, or first 2 or 3 accurate hits.

Oh yeah, I didn't mention it earlier, but back in the days when you could usually find a 5-shot snub on a lot of cops on their own time, it was typically opined that the little snubs were carried against the possibility of dealing with only 1 or maybe 2 attackers. (While 6-shot service revolvers were considered capable of dealing with 2 or maybe 3 attackers, if the user did their part.)

Life isn't an action movie scripted for 'high capacity bad guys', and even though I spend time in a couple of large urban areas with some spicy crime rates, I don't come across roving bands of armed gangs or terrorists. (Yet, anyway.)

I also carry at least 1 speedstrip in reserve.

Just some thoughts.

When it comes to the little J's ... Practice, Practice, Practice.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

As a young cop my first off duty was a model 60. For awhile I had a 3 inch model 37 too (should have kept that one!). Then they came out with the 640 so traded the 60 towards it. A year later they came out with the 642 and had to have that light weight so traded the 640 towards that. Wish I had kept the 640 too. Carried that backup / off duty till two years ago when found that it had a cracked frame under the forcing cone (thanks to a forum posting). This was an early one not plus P rated and I never shot plus P in it. Factory replaced it with a 442 (my request) and I’m very happy with that one. I carry the Hornady non plus P critical defense load.
I also favor the model 36 carried with the same loads.

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I've never met anyone who complained about having too many rounds during a gun fight.

I've known quite a few who complained about not having aimed and fired accurately enough.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

In light of this thread, after I cleaned one of my M&P 340's yesterday afternoon (one of the guns used in a LEOSA qual), I put it back in the safe an removed one of my 642-1's. I carried it for an evening trip to my cigar club, along with 2 speedstrips and a pair of speedloaders.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I find myself with the same discussion in my head, with the same two guns no less.

FWIW, I love my Glock 26 and my 642. They're both excellent guns in terms of reliability and accuracy.

I want to carry the G26 more often as it has more capacity and reloading is faster. In reality, I carry the 642 more often because it is much easier for me to carry.

I think I get inside my head too much and fantasize that I would need more rounds depending on what scenario is running through my mind, but realistically, after watching many ASP videos on YouTube, it seems that reloading isn't really a thing in all of the civilian encounters.Also, it appears that even in group encounters, once the shots start flying, everyone scatters. I don't have the kind of lifestyle where there will be a coordinated group assault on me and my family, so I think I can relax with the idea of a SWAT style attack.

Also, frankly, my life is not full of risky encounters. I do go out to dinner, and I do go to concerts now and then, but I spend my energy avoiding conflict and situations where conflict is likely.

I think a J frame is a great carry gun because of reliability, caliber choice, and likelihood of being carried. Sure, it's lower capacity, but it's better than the gun you leave in your car or in the safe at home.

That said, I'm typing this with the G26 on my hip!

That's why I have a Sherpa who carries my spare ammo.

So, last night I decided to forgo the 642 I've been carrying, and instead I belted on my G27 and a double magazine carrier. I seldom carry more than a single spare magazine since I retired, but I've been reading this book as a KindleUnlimited member ...


The Attack – January 7, 2024 by Kurt Schlichter (Author)



Sitting in the nice padded cigar club lounge chairs, having a belt gun and double mag carrier, made me feel (meaning belted gear against my hips) like I was working in my plainclothes assignment again.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Brother Parrish raises some good points above. In same vein...

Under stress your perceptions (and memory) can be affected. The lizard part of your brain wants you to REALLY PAY ATTENTION to the threat that's trying to kill you. Auditory exclusion and tunnel vision are common.
Your focus is most likely to be on the threat.

So, you need to make target focus and raising the gun into your vision and onto the threat a habit. Getting at least a flash sight picture should be part of that. Lousy trigger control will ruin the best sight picture. A controlled press can be fast and doesn't move the round off the threat. But it needs practice to become a habit.

Back in the last century LAPD interviewed their officers who used deadly force. Those who remembered seeing at least their front sight had significantly better shot placement than those that didn't. Doesn't mean those that didn't remember didn't use some sort of sight picture, but those that couldn't recall didn't have as good results overall.

At typical ranges, the lead on moving targets is pretty much zero. But the trigger press shouldn't be a spastic yank. I suspect the thought that one needs to FIRE RIGHT NOW (YANK!) has a lot to do with poor results.

Having said (OK, typed) all that, if your spidey sense is tingling, this is a flipping clue that it's time to exit the stage (Snagglepuss maneuver) before the festivities begin.

Only you can decide............NOT this peanut gallery.

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S&W Accumulator

Come on now, really...how long would the John Wick movie have been had he only carried a 642...be realistic...sheesh...

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Life Member GOA and NRA

I guess that's a joke; I attempted to watch John Wick once, maybe twice - that film's a joke for sure.

It's a fantasy.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

J Frames are just as capable as they always were and that's what I daily carry is some kind of J Frame.

Stats show us that most self-defense shootings involve 3 shots or less and in close quarters.

I feel (personally) I want a gun I carry, not the biggest cannon that looks cool or gets you lots of attention but is never carried.

I've carried going on about 15 years or so. Never had a shootout. So, I feel safe. If and when something happens, I'm sure I'd wish I had sniper cover, artillary, and air support. I just hope that never happens. I'm not in LE. I'm not chasing felons. Etc. So, I carry what I'm confident in, and what I WILL CARRY.

My go tos are a 640 Pro, Ruger LCR off and on, and I'm eyeing a 340 next... I am a revolver guy 100% of the time and have since sold off my semi-autos over the years. I'm confident in my abilities and the abilities of my weapons.

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