For many years my 642 in a Desantis pocket holster has been my "go to" gun for concealed carry. I don't carry while in my home, and it was just so easy to grab the 642 and put it into my front right pocket as I was leaving. But lately I find I am having capacity anxiety, thinking that it is foolish to be limited to 5 rounds of 38+, especially if I honest with myself that my accuracy with this short barreled revolver is pretty much limited to bad breath distances from my attacker. Sometimes instead I carry my Glock 26 with its 10+1 capacity in an OWB holster, but it sure is not as concealable and convenient as the trusty 642. Thoughts?

My 642 goes along with me often. If I need more than 5 rounds I should have stayed home,and an extra 5 or even 10 rounds most probably will still be in my magazine when they find it in my cold dead hands.

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My Daddy was a pistol..

I carry a 642 and a Bodyguard 380 frequently. Why? Because in many cases it’s the difference of me carrying at all. Both of them ride in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster and over time I’ve started to favor the 380 because it’s even a touch smaller and lighter.

I’ve never been too concerned about capacity with either because to me it’s a close range escape tool. Both of them have enough firepower at 3yd or less range and can likely buy me time to get out of whatever situation I’m in.

Occasionally I’ll carry a P99 or 4006, but if that was all I had I wouldn’t be carrying nearly as much given my clothing and environment in daily settings.

Though my Shield plus is my primary EDC my 642 isn't going anywhere. It was my backup gun during my working days and still goes into my pocket on occasion. I'm confident with it to 15 yards and at 25 still pose a threat though those distances are unlikely to be an issue.

Many days when I don't feel like "strapping up" it's my 442. I carry it with a DeSantis Clip Grip.

The arguments for high capacity in a personal defense weapon is a never ending push from people selling high capacity firearms. It's as simple as that. If it wasn't compelling, they wouldn't be very good at their jobs.

It's not just high capacity but whatever is the latest and the greatest. The push to black plastic and optics is all you see on the internet from "influencers". These people will also sell you a spot in their training classes so that you too can be "tactical" in all you do and think.

The use of "Fantasy Gun Fight Scenario" is the hook they pull you in with. It goes like this: "Suppose you're in a shopping mall and a shooter is XXX yards away?" Could you make that shot to take him out?

The reality? My reality? In 50+ years of carrying a firearm, as a Police Officer and then as a private citizen, I have never had to fire a SINGLE shot.

What do statistics tell us? You know....but the pull for these high capacity firearms is strong. I get it, and sure, I have succumbed myself. I have these high capacity firearms myself. BUT what I won't do is dismiss the utilitarian use of the J frame in total.

Over the years my various J Frames have served me very well and will continue to do so. I'd hate to be without 1 or 2 of them.

What I call "Walter Mitty Syndrome." Far too many guys prepare for getting into a pitched gun battle with an armed gang while having dinner at a restaurant.

The old argument of “multiple attackers” gets me. If you’re getting robbed by 4 guys with guns, can you quickly shoot all 4 of them before they shoot you, despite how many bullets you have?

I carry what makes sense. Most of the time I’m more worried about a stray dog or coyote trying to attack my dog or daughter than I am getting robbed

Wild hogs travel in big groups. Local thugs hang around in groups - nobody wants to have thre first hole. Et cet.

I carry a Ruger LCR.38 in a pocket holster. I understand what you say about 5 shots. I have had that debate and I carry the little gun only when going into a area/time I feel comfortable. At 78 I'm not doing any late night bar hopping and for the most part not going in harms way. I consider myself quite street wise and avoid most bad situations. FWIW I now live rural.

Of course I know bad things can happen anywhere any time but I spent a lot of time thinking about it. Lets be realistic it will probable not be utilized unless something unusual pops up.

If going out of my self imposed safe zone or bad things are happening I will move up to one of my .45s with a spare magazine.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

When confronted by nasty ole hoodlums. No one wants to deal with a stubborn (and maybe crazy) geezerman.

He might shoot you or something.

With his 642!

Mr. Vito, you're covered according to the Rule of Threes:

Three yards, three rounds, three seconds.
.....most gunfights involving civilians and felons takes place at a distance of approximately three to five yards, approximately three and one-half rounds are fired, and no further shooting takes place after approximately three seconds. I believe that this is based on FBI stats but this quote comes from:
The Rule Of Threes

As most civilian's defensive use of a firearm fall into these parameters, feeling adequately prepared for an encounter is dependent on one's personal risk assessment.
Many still feel prepared with a 5-shot J frame while others have opted for an auto that has higher capacity. As it is said, YMMV.

I guess we all should just go with what we feel is best for our own circumstances and hope that we never need to find out.

I will add that leaving a higher capacity gun at home because it's heavier or a little too big, does no good.

The 3/3/3 thing sounds nicely alliterative. However, I've never seen any armed encounter where anyone was standing around with a stopwatch. I'm a decrepit old coot, but if I'm standing there with hands in my pockets (1 on a gun), 3 rounds-with center chest hits- @ 3 yards is under 1.25 seconds.

It's been some time since I spent 5 years digging through the FBI UCRs looking for homicide stats. Frankly, the FBI collects it's stats from the LLEAs that report their stats (no stats, no grant money). I've gotta strongly doubt that they bother collating private citizen shooting stats even if the LLEA bothered to collect them, especially in that detail. A quick skim of the stats readily available online didn't show anything. If you're really curious, you can find the entire UCR on line.

Back then, the UCRs did have a section on LLEA shootings. There was one very sobering section where they mentioned that at 25 yards LE won 90% of the gunfights, they broke even (50%) at 7 yards and lost 90% at 3 yards. Why? The bad person knew there was gonna be a shooting, the cop(s) didn't. At longer range, training won out.

There is a statistically significant civilian shooting data base. You'll find that, plus much more at rangemaster.com in the newsletter section. They show a 3 shot average on 1 aggressor incidents, average range is 5 yards, extremes are 2 and 27 yards.

People should carry whatever they like and are comfortable with, of course. The odds that you will have to shoot in defense of yourself or others are extremely small. But if you choose to carry, it is a tacit admission that you are considering you may have to. That said, I'll be willing to put money on Elisjsha Dicken being glad he wasn't armed with a snubnose J-frame on July 17, 2022.

I can't find the video but the other day I saw a Youtube video of a guy ringing steel plates with a Charter Arms Undercover at 25 yards.

Carried a J frame light weight variant with a speed loader as a back up and off duty EDC for many years. Now carry a P365 with an extra mag. Completely comfortable (comforted) with either but shoot the 365 better at 15-25 yards and do like the extra capacity. Agree that I'll likely never need the extra capacity - guess I just bought in to the hype.

It's no hype when you can carry 12 rounds in roughly the same size package weighing just a couple of ounces more and a better chance of putting them where you need them. These are exactly the reasons that I semi-retired my J frame and went with my P365.
Rockquarry makes an excellent point about practice, and then makes the argument FOR
something else with his statement that "all the other guns become surprisingly easier to shoot well."

Perhaps I didn't say that well.

I would guess we all shoot more than one gun when we make our frequent trips to the gun range. Just my personal experience, but I've found that regular practice with a J-frame at 25 yards has helped me to shoot better with larger guns.

J-frames are very unforgiving when it comes to grip, firmness of grip, sighting, and adapting and becoming accustomed to a stout trigger pull (or at least it it feels that way) in a small, lighweight revolver. Consistency with all the above factors helps develop a shooter's skill.

When you revert to shooting a larger-framed heavier gun, you carry over the shooting discipline acquired with the more difficult J-frame.

Based on my own results, that's as simple as I can explain it.

[QUOTE=rockquarry;141908513]... Just my personal experience, but I've found that regular practice with a J-frame at 25 yards has helped me to shoot better with larger guns.

J-frames are very unforgiving when it comes to grip, firmness of grip, sighting, and adapting and becoming accustomed to a stout trigger pull (or at least it it feels that way) in a small, lighweight revolver. Consistency with all the above factors helps develop a shooter's skill. ...QUOTE]


Yep. Pretty much.

Shooting any of the J-frames demands more of the shooter. The lighter ones demand the most.

The very attributes that makes the venerable 5-shot snub so handy and practical also tends to make it harder to shoot them. In the heyday of service revolvers, even average skilled shooters of full-size revolvers found it harder to master the smaller 5-shot snubs.

However, the payoff for working to acquire superior DA/DAO skills using the smaller J's is that it generally becomes even easier to run the larger guns.

Kind of like how working to master shooting .357MAG made shooting .38SPL easier regarding controllability, accuracy and speed.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I'm of the 'escape tool' clan. The only time I ever discharged my 340pd was dealing with an attaching Rhodesian Ridgeback... even then I think the muzzle blast was the most effective aspect. JMHO

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Randy
Provenance nerd

A J-frame is plenty accurate at 25 yards, but many shooters don't do well beyond a short distance with a J-frame. Plenty of practice will take care of that. When you're capable of shooting a J-frame well at distance, all the other guns become surprisingly easier to shoot well.

I remember HATING the DAO trigger when I first got it. After awhile I became surprisingly accurate with it and have grown to like DAO triggers for what they are. It definitely feels like a badge of honor to shoot a small double action gun well.

Good for you. Regrettably, many don't see things that way. Good shooting skills are unimportant to many people.

Having lots of magazine capacity, lots of ammo, one or two extra guns, some sort of miscellaneous gadgetry, a knife or two, a flashlight (and maybe a spare), a tactical pen (thought that was a joke when I first heard of such a year ago) and possibly some survival food (stuffed in their underwear because there was no room anywhere else) is important to many. And that's for a non-law enforcement concealed carry (hobbyist?) waiting for the big imaginary gunfight with multiple evil and deadly criminal swine.

Again, put shooting prowess aside. It's more important for some to be able to quote statistics and know the actual name of a person involved in a publicized shooting incident and quote that person's name on a regular basis in addition to worshipping at their shrine.

Instead of developing expertise in shooting, some folks develop a good strong sense of paranoia and worry about things that needn't be worried about.

If you can carry a bag full of tricks on a daily basis and also shoot with a high level of skill, that's something good, but from reading these posts and many others that deal with this sort of thing, the bag of tricks and reasonably good shooting expertise are often not found together.

If it's not, I was having a bad day already.

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John 3:16 .

A hammerless revolver can be fired from inside of a pocket without jamming.

Watching too much John Wick imo. My theory about driving anywhere is to go from point A to point B and back again without any interaction with other drivers or the HP. My theory about my edc [either a J frame or a Colt Mustang] is to carry it every day, even in my own home, and never have to use it. Practicing defensive driving and situational awareness is absolutely necessary to do those two things. To quote Sgt Esterhaus ‘Hey, Lets be careful out there’.

Between situational awareness, defensive driving, learning to point shoot, and not walking around where you shouldn't, a 5 shot J frame is likely all that you will ever need. I don't like Airweights so I carry a M649 virtually every day except when I KNOW that I am going to be someplace that could be a target (house of worship leads the list). The I break out a 9mm with more cartridges but I still stick to smaller guns.

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Come and take it!!

All I carry anymore is a J Frame, either a 640 OWB or a 642 pocket. I’ve got Glock, Sig, Springfield etc. But a J Frame just fits my lifestyle better. I’ve even tried to like my Kimber K6s. I shoot it well, it’s dependable but I just can’t warm up to it. So I’ve decided if a J Frame and a speed strip can’t get me out of the situation, today just isn’t my day.

My Model 38 with a DeSantis Clip Grip is my go to for walking out the door. It's a 1983 classic humpback, and the DA trigger is butter smooth. They built them like that 40 years ago. It nickel, and has almost no turn line. A policeman's ankle backup during it's first life. My practice shooter is a 637, and I've fired and dry-fired it enough that the DA is smooth, but still not up to the old builds. Practicing with it makes the occasional cylinder with the 38 even easier, as it pulls through even smoother.

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Heavily armed old man.

I think there are two separate questions here. Capacity and accuracy.

As to capacity, I don’t think there is much need to worry about having “only” 5 or 6 shots, provided you can shoot well.

But you also seem to be saying you don’t have confidence you can shoot the J frame well. To that question I’d say either practice more with the J frame. Or carry something else you can shoot better—not because it has higher capacity.

Whatever you do, don’t get so tangled up in the details that you stop carrying regularly. Having the gun when you need it is 99% of the solution.

I carry a Model 640 sometimes. Light weight in a carry gun isn't important to me, as long as it is lighter than around 30 ounces anyway. Comfort in carrying is most important.

I know the polymer framed autoloaders are popular due to light weight and mag capacity but for a legally armed civilian vs. a law enforcement officer, the probability of needing to fire more than a few shots and needing a reload are slim. The current thinking seems to be if one needs to shoot an attacker, then they need to have a mag dump applied to them. This is why so many police shootings seem to involve having 15 or more shots fired. If you have limited capacity maybe you'll place your shots better.

I find it ludicrous how so many CCW holders feel the need to gear up with a 17 shot Glock plus two spare mags, a Surefire light, a folding knife, a can of pepper spray and a tourniquet or first aid kit all on their belt before leaving the house.
Oh, and that Glock needs to have an RMR and attached weapon light or laser too. People are watching too much TV.

I get told, "Better to carry 50 rounds and not need them than to need ammo and not have it." What if you need 51 rounds?

I do carry a folding knife, I've carried once since I was a Cub Scout. I use it almost every day and I'm really surprised that everyone doesn't carry a pocket knife.

I'm diabetic so for nearly forty years I've carried what is a small camera case that hold my meter and insulin pen. I use the excess space in the case to carry Tylenol, a few bandaids , and an small flashlight. I don't have a tourniquet.

Spare ammo? I have a Sherpa who carries 500 rounds for my carry gun plus 50 rounds in all of the common calibers against the event that I need to use a pick-up gun.

I've recently made some concessions for capacity. My edc for years was a 640. We bonded well. I liked the weight of the stainless steel. I mostly carried it in my right front pocket, but also occasionally on my hip.

My backup to the 640 was a 642. Same manual of arms, just a little lighter.

Lately my edc has changed to my 1st generation Shield in .40 s&w. This was my daily prior to acquiring the 640. It has never failed me and my capacity went up from 5 to 7. The 642 remains as my bug.

As a revolver guy I do have some guilt over the change, but with a spare mag in my pocket, I have 2 reloads instead of one, with the extra benefit of a couple more rounds. The weight between the Shield and the 640 is about the same, so I can still carry it in a pocket or on my hip.

Not to lose track of the topic though, the 642 remains my bug through this change. It is so easy to drop in a pocket to go out and gets used for that reason and more.

Yes to answer your question.

I sure hope so. Out of town this weekend with a snub model 10 and a 642-1. One speed strip, one J speed loader, two K speed loaders.

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Dave

For some entertaining reading on the subject, look up user Univibe.

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Common sense isn't so common.

Most of the time a J-Frame is in my pocket and a 9mm is in my waist. On occasion I will carry just one of them but, usually it’s both of them.

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Two Handguns every day

A J-Frame is a great BUG, there is zero chance I would rely on one for primary though. 5 rounds was Ok in the 60's but today, nope.

Retired cop opinion. We never let bad guys put their hands in their pockets when we stop them. So do you think a bad guy robbing you, will let you put your hand in your pocket?

If I am walking around I usually have my hand in my pocket holding my 442. Like in parking lots and most places. It’s just natural for me. If we go to a ATM, my wife uses the ATM and I keep head on swivel and watch for anyone approaching. We try to walk to stay somewhat fit. I find I just naturally like my hands in my pockets so I feel I should be able to handle a problem. Sounds good to me but, I’ve never had a problem.

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Two Handguns every day

One of my favorite expressions I use is, “no one has a problem until they do have a problem”. At that particular point nothing you do in the future will help you at the time of “the problem’. My all time favorite saying and the way I try to live my life is……. Previous Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance”. Hey I sincerely hope you never do have a problem and if you do I also hope 5 rounds are enough.

If a new Airline has operated 100% successfully for 10 years straight without a crash or serious mishap, does that mean they should not update their safety and floatation equipment? Unfortunately, it does seem to eventually happen. I sincerely hope no one here every has to pull their EDC in a SD situation - but the odds are not getting better, - only worse these days.

Although I am walking with hand in pocket holding a J-Frame I failed to mention I also have a 9mm Shield in my waistband. I carry Two extra mags for it. So I may Rely on a J frame as my main gun I always have a back up. There was a time when I felt comfortable carrying 2 J frames. But as of the last 2 to 3 years I felt I should carry a little more.

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Two Handguns every day

How risky do you think your usual environment may be? Where I live I’d be fine with a J-frame, but I admit I don’t practice with one like I should, and the sights aren’t ideal for my older vision. Rockquarry is right, IMO. J-frames require constant practice. I’d be better off with a P365 for those two reasons. On the other hand, if I didn’t have/didn’t want/couldn’t afford another gun of that type, I’d still be ok with the Chief. I’d just try to practice more. If I lived in a more hazardous environment, I’d adjust accordingly.

Ok so maybe just to be a little wise here.. when you stopped someone would you have let them quickly sweep their shirt/jacket/etc back while positioning themselves to draw? Probably not..

If you’re being completely reactionary, no holstered gun is going to get the jump on someone. Sure I might be slightly faster out of an OWB holster depending on what’s covering it, but like someone said already, if I feel a risk I can reach into my pocket and be holding my J or BG380 already - it’s much harder to discreetly pull that off with my 4006.

My hands are already in my pockets!

True that. It was cold today.

Just a side note. Have you ever been stopped by the police with your hands in your pockets?

From the same perspective, I'm wondering if you ever asked anyone to produce ID without reaching into their pockets and where you think punks think citizens keep the car keys and wallet they just demanded.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I carried a J Frame of some sort since 1980 up until 2019 when I got the opportunity to shoot a friends Sig P365. When Sig ironed out all the issues with the then new gun, I bought one. After a few months of testing, shooting and familiarization with it, it became my EDC / CCW and has been on me daily for almost 5 years now.

I now have over 6,000 rounds through it without a hic-cup and it is with me daily. Not only have I not gone back to my J Frame, I don't think I've shot it since. I believe in constant practice with whatever gun & ammo you carry and I got to the point where I was not enjoying practice sessions with my carry ammo anymore. My carry load for the J's were Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P SWCHP and Speer 135 grain +P GDHP.

Shooting the Sig was so much easier, it is more accurate at any distance, allows for greater round capacity (more than double), has better ballistics, is easier and faster to reload, weighs 5 ounces less than the J's and is smaller, flatter and has way way better sights. To me, my 40 year EDC J Frame has now been retired and unless it is an emergency & I doubt I will ever again carry any revolver. To me they have been obsoleted for EDC.

All that said, one must carry what they shoot best, feel comfortable with and can feel confident with. If a J Frame still fills all those needs for the person carrying it, then I guess it is still viable for that person. All I can suggest is never stop practicing with it, do lots of reloading drills and shoot it well.

The 642 is still relevant. If capacity is an issue, carry another in your left front pocket!

While I don't condone those who choose to carry firearms with higher capacities, but I think it's most important that you have confidence in your ability to use the firearm you choose to carry. As in your situation, you have a 642 which packs a good punch, but you didn't mention if you carry a spare re-load or two with it. If your 642 carries 5 rounds total, and you add two speed strips at 5 shots ea. then you have a total of 15 rounds at your disposal. Ultimately, if you're adamant about the 642 it's probably best to work on and improve your marksmanship skills overall. I am a firm believer that proficient marksmanship should be your goal, and not so much on higher capacity reliance if I read your post correctly.

Does the sun rise in the East?