I finally convinced my wonderful girlfriend (is lady friend a little too weird to say?) that she needs a gun that is "more" than the Walther P-22 that I gave her years ago. So I thought that for fun I'd pop in here and ask the Forum for recommendations and ideas.

The brand doesn't matter. I'm unsure if she can handle too much recoil but we'll find out. I'm thinking that we stick to .38 Special or 9mm - we'll find out today if she can rack the slide on a 9mm pistol.

If we just use a gun from my "accumulation" she is not getting my M649 and it's my only J frame. But I have a miscellaneous accumulation so let's leave the door open and see what folks think.

So, like I said, it's a fun topic, toss out some ideas for me!

Gracias!

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Come and take it!!

When Ruthie decided 11 years ago to go heeled we made three weekend trips to a range with a large assortment of rental guns. She gave a lot of guns a fair shake and landed on an LCP.

She chose wisely.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

IMHO, a .38s in a J frame or similar is going to be a bit "snappy" with recoil. Conversely, a semi auto pistol may be difficult for her to rack. Thankfully many manufacture's of guns and ammo have begun address these phenomena. As always it's best to try to range test as many guns that suit your needs as possible.
I feel comfortable that my wife has a Shield and a 9c. She is able to rack them, handle the recoil and quickly follow up on target. She is much better reloading with a new mag than a speed loader. She prefers an external safety. Not my choice, but it makes her more comfortable so ultimately makes her better in an emergency situation.

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paws for friendship

Check out a Smith EZ.9 (or .380 if recoil is an issue). Great pistol, easy to operate, easy to shoot. Wife’s had one since they came out. Four people (2 ladies) I’ve taught to shoot have tried them and bought their own. Highly recommend.

That's the ticket. Have her shoot a variety of prospective guns and allow her to make the choice.

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What, me worry?

After some experimenting my lady friend went with an LCRX 3". A good all round combination of weight (its light), fairly decent sights (I added an XS standard dot front) with adjustable rear, rugged finish that still looks great after 5 years and shoots 90 - 148 grain to POA at 50' and inbound. Balances well with the 3" barrel and factory grips absorb a lot of recoil. She carry's in a gun specific hand bag and it resides in a ballistic scabbard at home on the night stand. I have never had a gun this easy to clean and maintain.

All the women in my life who I've provided firearms for have 642's loaded with standard .38 sp.
Point it and pull the trigger. The j frame fits most women's hand well.
No need to rack the slide, worry about the safety, or lack thereof. No hammer to snag. No need to practice shooting more than 10-15 feet away (if that far).
Perfect, imo, for the woman who doesn't train enough to develop muscle memory. Nothing to think about when the time of need arises except point and shoot.

One of the biggest mistakes I see are people thinking that women should carry light weight handguns. The idea is that if it’s not really light they won’t carry it.

It’s far more important that a woman carry a gun they are comfortable shooting and are willing to practice with enough to attain and maintain proficiency.

The handgun, pistol or revolver absolutely must fit her hand so that:
- the trigger reach is not excessive (pad of the finger for an SA only pistol, and all the way to the first joint with a DA/SA pistol, DAO pistol or DA/SA or DAO revolver);
- she can get her fingers far enough around the grip to properly control it (thumb and middle finger should be able to touch or very nearly so); and
- the sights are visible and close to being aligned naturally when she raises the pistol to her line of sight.

Similarly she must be able to rack the slide on the handgun (although there are some techniques such as bracing the shooting arm against the hip while holding the slide with the weak hand and then pivoting the him hole pushing the pistol forward to rack the slide held in the other hand).

The DA trigger pull must be manageable whether it’s on a DA pistol or a DA revolver. And again, being able to get the trigger finger on the trigger all the way up to the first joint is essential.

Cartridge considerations are secondary or even tertiary.

In general recoil springs are lighter for locked breech designs than for blow back designs and in most cases a locked breech 9mm will be easier to rack than a blow back .380, but a locked breech .380 ACP pistol will generally be very easy to rack as is a blowback .32 ACP.

The Kimber Micro is light, compact and easy to rack, but the cartride is one many consider to be marginal. Hornady XTPs will expand and penetrate 12” in ballistic gel, but they need 1000 fps to do it and that’s a stretch in a 2.75” barrel. Choose the load carefully. Recoil is about the same as a Walther PPK/S, even though it’s a lot lighter.

The Kimber Micro 9 is slightly larger and is 9mm. But recoil can be objectionable. However, I bought one with the slightly longer threaded barrel and a compensator. That compensator is surprisingly effective and puts it high on the list for a concealed carry handgun with reduced recoil.



A steel frame Model 36 or Model 60 is a good choice, especially with .38 or .38 +P ammunition.



The Ruger SP101 is also a good choice and with about 5 oz more weight compared to a model 60, it even more recoil friendly.

The small frame Taurus pistols like the 85 and the 9mm 905 below can also be good choices, but quality is all over the place so buy it and try it for you depend on it.



I’ve been very impressed with the Taurus 856 Executive. It’s a bobbed hammer DAO revolver but the trigger is very smooth and light weight for a DA revolver. It’s equal to the triggers on my two Kimber K6S pistols that cost twice as much.



My major objection with the 856 executive is that the grips won’t work with a speed loader and interfere with ejection of 1 or 2 of the cases.

An aftermarket grip and some carving of a speed loader got it to my preferred level of self defense speed load-ability.



The Beretta 80X also has an excellent DA trigger. It’s a .380 ACP but it’s a double stack pistol that is very well made and reliable. It’s still a blow back design but the wide back strap and weight of the loaded pistol make recoil very manageable and suitably pleasant.

I agree with some of the others, she should shoot an assortment of pistols and then make an informed decision. The smaller lighter pistols are traditionally more difficult to shoot well and tend to recoil more. Take the time to find a quality firearm that she enjoys shooting.

I think a lot of the modern single stack 9mm pistols (Kahr, Glock, Sig, Shield) are all viable options. Need to consider her hand size (what will fit her hand well) and how she will carry it (IWB, purse carry, etc). If you go with a J frame, my suggestion would be an all steel Centennial model. Also, consider grips. I love a J frame with Pachmayr closed back grips. May have to go back to that myself. Except that ammo availability and price for .38/.357 to be somewhat prohibitive!

Edit: if racking a slide is an issue, consider the EZ-9 or .380 EZ line of pistols.

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otis

Mrs. robrossk likes our S&W 380EZ. Some people do struggle with the grip safety but the performance center version has a different safety piece and there are aftermarket options as well. A J frame revolver might be an option but double action pull accuracy requires a LOT of practice. I would suggest 110gr ammo or 148 gr wadcutters. And when done practicing, practice more.

Seriously. What he said.

What ever she can operate and shoot best.

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No baby we aint

Recoil is a bit snappy with the Ruger LCP and any light weight 9mm auto. Hand fitting semi autos are much easier to shoot accurately for women than J frame .38s. A Glock 42 .380 would seem to be ideal.

I bought a gently used Beretta 86 for the woman I was courting (and am now married to). Tip-up barrel, .380 ACP, blued steel and walnut. Pretty easy to make it work.

Part of the answer lies in how much time she's going to devote to honing her craft.
Revolvers make a lot of sense for folks that want to have a gun handy, but aren't going to practice or shoot a lot.
My girl started with a 642, but when she decided she liked to shoot and wanted to do more of it, she moved on to autoloaders.
Walther seems to have taken the female shooter to heart, and make some fine guns for that purpose. The CCP is one of the best feeling pistols in the hand, IMO. Just make sure you get the 2nd version (M2)!

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Because of the metric system?

Let her try rentals etc., etc. BUT. Make sore you let her choose!!!!
Jim

My wife’s two guns. The 380 resides in the safe. The Model 60 goes with her. It fits her hand, has enough weight that the 38+p Gold Dots are comfortable to shoot, and is simple to operate. I pray she never has to use it but am happy she has it. Good luck!

Hugh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Keep some simply Physics in mind. Note this is something that is TOTALLY ignored by many males purchasing firearms for a woman.

1) Lighter guns produce more perceived recoil than heavier guns.

(2) Guns with stronger recoil will have heavier recoil springs than guns with lighter recoil.

I personally have to keep these rules in mind when selecting what I'll be taking to the range for an outing. Because I have Arthritis in both thumbs and the radial head of both wrists. This means that a 1911 in 45 ACP is at my absolute limit for wracking the slide if the hammer is down and a bit painful to shoot. On the other hand my 9mm 1911 is a pure pleasure to shoot and it's one of the easiest slides of any of the guns I own. Speaking of Revolvers my model 36 is tolerable with some big fat Hogue rubbers on it but with those original postage stamps grips "rapid fire" ain't gonna happen considering it takes a full second or more to re-establish a proper grip after each shot.

My suggestion for a handgun for a shooter who is recoil sensitive and a bit lacking in experience is a 380 semi or 32 caliber revolver. Yeah, neither caliber is not a "man stopper" but in Fact and Science neither is the 45 ACP. What actually stops an assailant is is a well placed shot. So, what one chooses to shoot is vastly less important than getting a pistol that someone will actually enjoy shooting. Because Practice is critical for gaining and maintaining the ability to shoot well.

Why should she be different than anyone else, different from any of us? Take her to the range with a variety of guns and see what she gravitates towards. Let her decide.

I'm a firm believer that novice shooters who aren't going to invest significant time with their firearm are best served by revolvers.

Revolvers are simple to load, simpler to unload. No worries about "is a round chambered?" Cleaning is simpler as well, no slide to remove.

I suspect this firearm will be for range and home defense rather than a CCW.

That said, I suggest you and your lady friend take a look at the NRA Women Ladies Pistol Project 4 results that also comments of the three previous project results. The Projects' firearms include revolvers too.

The S&W M&P Shield 9 EZ and the Walther PDP Compact took top honors in project 4. These were both new models for the brands that hadn't been release before the previous competition.

I believe the Walther PDP-F series should be considered for two reasons. First, your wife's experience with the P22. Second, Walther designed the F series for medium and small hand shooters that provides great ergonomics. IIRC, the F-Series was never in a competition because of its release date.

Results for the most recent Project 5 are due out February 2024 in video form. Watch for them.

Both Project 4 pistols and the PDP-F would be good options as they are all touted as minimal recoil effect pistols.

I think you answered the question yourself. Walther P-22 is good enough for her.

BTW, since you gave her the P-22 years ago. How many rounds have she put down range. 1000? 2000? 5000+

I view these "experiments" with a jaundiced eye. In a stressful situation, will the novice shooter remember to rack the slide if they store the gun unloaded? What about FTFs or FTEs? Accidentally hitting the mag release under stress?

Two or three items in the original post caught my attention.

1) I've convinced. This indicates the project is your idea. If you want it to have legs, the final choice should be something she wants on her own.

2) Walther PP22 I gave her years ago. Does she shoot it regulalrly? Does she like shooting it? Is she comfortable with it? If the answer to the last two are yes, then a Big Brother to it (like the PPS?) could be a good second. Already knows the system - just need to get used to the different trigger, recoil and racking forces.

3) Home Defense (from title). Concealability and carry comfort are lower importance in the house or apartment. No need to go smaller pistol with a larger caliber unless that is what what she shoots well.

So number one I'd try to find something she finds enjoyable and wants to go to the range or events with. And number two, failing that, find something she can operate well without lots of additional practice


And since you asked for entertaining responses (that may provide ideas)

I’d qualify number 2 with the difference between blow back and locked breech. As noted above in my post a .380 Kimber Micro using a delayed recoil locked breech design will feel like it recoils the same as a blow back operated PPK/S even though the Kimber weighs half as much.

I also agree with you on the caliber issue.

The .380 ACP is (finally) gaining more acceptance in the US. However, I’ve found in the course of ballistic gel testing that the .32 ACP 60 gr XTP in a 3.9” barrel PP will have a muzzle velocity around 1050 fps and penetrate 12” of ballistic gel with reliable expansion. That’s the same performance you get from the .380 ACP with a 90 gr XTP bullet at around 1000 fps.

You get an extra round in the magazine with the .32 ACP.

The .32 ACP also has much lower recoil making it much more friendly for a recoil sensitive shooter, but more importantly it allows for much faster follow up shots and for most shooters better accuracy in rapid fire and in particular double taps.

When I compare a .380 ACP PPK/S to a .32 ACP PP, and consider all the factors it’s really a toss up.

There are a number of .32 ACP pistols I don’t mind carrying when compact size is a consideration, including the Walther PP, the FEG APK7S, the Beretta Model 81 (a 12 round double stack pistol) and the Beretta Tomcat.

Since you are taking here to the range anyway make sure to take a modest assortment of this and that, revolvers and autos, small and medium size, and see what fits her hand. That will be a major criteria. How will she carry it? On body carry has different parameters than off-body carry. What sort of clothing does she typically wear? It all makes a difference but something that fits her hand and that she can physically operate will be a very important, probably the most important, consideration in a wise decision.

My ex-wife was a cop. With a revolver was #2 in her Police Academy class of 40. One year #3 in the State in the Women’s Division.

What is she packing the last 30 years? Beretta 25 ACP with the tip-up barrel. Most men don’t like that feature but women who are savvy on handguns love them. I knew several women who carried those Berettas in 22, 25 or 32 ACP.

The biggest mistake guys make is deciding what their girlfriend or wife should get and or making suggestions of what they should get.

If she doesn’t like it, she won’t shoot it.

If it doesn’t fit her well, she won’t shoot it well.

The cartridge it fires is far less important than just having a defensive hand gun when it’s needed. Estimates are all over the place but the highest estimates average aaround 1.4 million defensive handgun uses per year.

Those estimates inevitably get reduced to figures around 40,000 per year in government published studies as that number conforms with data from police reports, etc.

The massive difference between those two numbers are that the vast majority of the time a defensive handgun is effective without ever being fired.

At the least intrusive and reportable level, having a handgun, and having the situational awareness that often goes with it frequently prevents an attack in the first place. For example the wood be victim with a concealed handgun sees the potential assailant at a distance and makes eye contact. That by itself removes the lament of surprise and is often sufficient for an assailant to choose a softer target. And, if the would be victim is not displaying the level of fear the assailant expects, that sets off red flags in smarter criminals who again seek a softer target. Those numbers are impossible to measure even with a survey as the potential victim never knows for sure if they were in fact targeted.

Beyond that if the assault progresses, the intended victim drawing the weapon is more often than not sufficient to put an assailant to flight as they really don’t want to get shot. In some cases the prospective victim doesn’t have time to complete the draw before the assailant flees. Research data consistently shows this account for 70-80% of survey reported defensive handgun uses.

None of those instances have a high likelihood hood of being reported to the police, particularly in jurisdictions that are even remotely anti-gun.

Then you have the cases where a firearm is fired. However only a fraction of those result in the assailant being hit before fleeing. I suspect many of them are not reported either.

In those cases where the assailant is hit, about half will flee or surrender rather than risk being shot again, even if the hit itself is not incapacitating. Most of those are probably reported and included in the 40,000 estimate.

Cartridge wise, and magazine capacity wise, that leaves a very small percentage of defensive handgun uses where cartridge or capacity matter at all. That percentage is probably under 5% of all defensive handgun uses, and in the vast majority of those 6 rounds is more than enough to resolve the situation.

And yet way too many people make defensive handgun decisions based on what is probably a 1% worst case scenario. There’s nothing really wrong with that, until you consider that many of those individuals stop carrying their duty sized pistol and two spare magazines on their bat belt due to back pain or other convenience related issues and up making that quick trip to the local stab and grab for a pint of ice cream unarmed.

@BB57 has great points.

As a cop I have been at a variety of Crime Scenes. Bad guys do not want to be shot. And good people do not want to shoot other people regardless of their intentions.

Professional Training is the best plan for anyone who owns firearms especially if they made be in a Self Defense situation.

My thoughts.....
Your idea, your perfect gun for her....
Is not her idea. Not "her perfect gun" for her. She won't carry.
Did she say she needs a gun different than the .22 you gave her years ago?
She has to want to carry. She must decide what gun she needs to carry. Or she won't carry any gun.
Listen to her needs, not your wants.
Lots of good advice in the above replies.

Those I know are allergic to recoil. I downloaded some 38 spec (LIGHT powder and LIGHT bullets). Am considering having her try one of those old goofy H&R’s in 32 S&W. Don’t laugh. Nobody volunteers to get shot with 32 S&W.

It depends on the lady. There are so many variables that it has to be that way. When I was teaching shooting to none-LE people in my college classes, that was the basis of my advice. So once these ladies had completed the class my advice to them was that, since they now had the basic skills, to try as many different handguns as possible so they could make the choice based on their individual needs and preferences.

My wife is a skilled and competent shooter. When we first started going together she decided that my Walther PPKS was her preference. That little pistol was completely reliable. When I got my Glock 26 she tried it and decided she wanted one. She now has one of her own, and is deadly with it. Time has passed and now the Glock 43 is available, but not in CA. She has fired one and would prefer it to her Glock 26 as it is smaller and lighter. But that is not going to happen in CA, so she carries her 26.

She is the one who has made these decisions. More important, she is completely confident in the decisions. For EDC (home protection is pretty much, as much as is humanly possible, a non-issue where we live) and the fact that entry into our home is neither quick nor easy, so what she has chosen is the best for her.

But that is only for her. The other women in our tiny community who I have worked with, trained, and coached, all prefer small revolvers, either J frame S&W (with the Hogue Monogrip based on my advice) or the Ruger SP101.

My experience has made it completely clear to me is that it has to be up to the lady.

As long as she chooses. Must be able to reach the controls. Operate the slide if it has one, manage the recoil(mostly training on that one), willing to carry, enjoy shooting. Nobody else can choose all that for her. JMHO.

My wife is adverse to recoil, but enjoys shooting 22 LR. She tried a steel K frame with light.38 loads but didn't like it. I bought a 380EZ hoping she would try it but never did. She settled on a SW 317 and likes it. She also has a Henry 22 rifle and a .410 shotgun to use around home and the farm.

Y'ALL ARE WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!

None as I recall and I don't shoot that many rounds annually anymore, either. The whole point of this exercise is to get her to the range with a larger caliber than a .22 since she is smart enough to watch the news and realize the self defense issues that have arisen across the country mandate being prepared.

We tinkered with some of my guns today, in the house only, nothing loaded, etc. A little dry firing and slide racking. The "like the way they handle" winners were two of my 9mm pistols, my Walther CCP and my S&W 6906.

So we shall see. Much obliged everyone!!!!

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Come and take it!!

I have some arthritis. 38 wadcutters are a joy. 170g 357's out of the same gun HURT.

Funny this article came up since my wife has been thinking about carrying recently.

My wife is small framed and shoots her Smith 317 very well but wants something with more stopping power. She doesn’t have the strength to rack a slide especially in a panic situation and is recoil sensitive. Yesterday the topic came up again so I started pulling revolvers from the safe. We quickly concluded a 38 was the way to go and after dry firing and operating several guns she liked the weight of my M37 but since she’s recoil shy I discouraged that. At the end of the day she felt my Colt Cobra (new model) might be the ticket. It’s six rounds, small enough to carry but heavy enough to tame recoil wit rubber grips. I need to see how she feels about my 66-2 2.5” but think she’ll favor the Cobra. I showed her my 640 no dash, 3” King Cobra, M37 and 3” Python.

I ordered some 105grain polymer coated bullets and I’m going to load some light loads. If she deals well with that I’ll load a little heavier and then work her up to a 125 grain HP and see how she does.

I want to let her sclimate to something new and not overwhelm her. It just takes one bad experience and then you have to start over at a later time. If it comes down to her carrying a 22 then that’s better than nothing at all.

No one likes to be shot with anything..............

Barbara has a S&W 2" 10 and a 4" 15

The more I've thought about it the more I'd thinking about taking her out with the .32 PPK/s

You might consider a j frame in 32 mag.

6 rounds and less recoil than 38 special.

Smith and Wesson's new centennial is worth looking at.

Just browsing through, scanning---but not reading much of anything, I saw the phrase, "she doesn't have the strength to rack a slide---not even in a panic situation."

It never occurred to me anybody would even think about carrying an autoloader without a round in the chamber.

Is their something in the bad guy's book of etiquette that says their victims shouldn't carry a round in the chamber?

It never occurred to me anybody wouldn't carry a round in the chamber---two or three, if they could figure out a way to make it work!

Ralph Tremaine

And as an aside, what's she supposed to do when comes time to clear a jam?

Wow, is this forum overrun with faux-progressive liberal anti-gunners or what?

Honestly, it seems like every thread posted in regards to self-defense or 2A victories gets 1-starred into oblivion anymore.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Glock 19 gen 5, it always goes bang, near impossible to limp wrist, small enough to conceal and large enough for great control

My wife uses a Shield EZ .380. I have a 9mm Shield and a 9mm Shield EZ.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Lotta good points up above, my 2 cents:

Taking her to a rental range is an outstanding idea. There's a lot of factors at play here and she gets to sort things out for herself.

The ability to rack the slide-if it has one, reach to trigger and fit to hand are really important. As is hand strength. Recoil can be an issue because of the amount and/or the character.

I recently did a project involving recoil of various handguns. I was very surprised to find that a 2" and 3" all steel J frames had around 3-3.5 ft lbs of recoil with 2 types of +P ammo*. But the big thing about that recoil was that the factory banana stocks spread the recoil over a larger part of the hand and given a firm grip wasn't bad at all. To me. The stocks need to both fit the hand and spread the recoil out. FWIW, a M&P9 1.0 with +P does about 4 ft lbs.

Now then, the character of the recoil. Brisk, snappy recoil is often uncomfortable for many. Might not even be that harsh, but them seeing the gun really dance about at the shot can be an issue. My wife's 3914 dances around quite a bit, she could shoot it well, much preferred to shoot my 5906. Kicked less to quote them.

The S&W Academy once did a study and found that once past the .38/9 mm power level, both accuracy and rapidity of fire suffered. Yes, a rigorous training schedule can pretty much make the differences insignificant in the real world, but the average person doesn't have the drive, money and need for it.

Finally, while most people don't want to get shot, there are those who for various reasons, just don't get the memo after being shot. A distinguished member here pointed out that after reviewing several hundred cases, .380 is a bit chancy. He noted that if JHP expands, it frequently doesn't penetrate to vital organs.

*My calculator gives a .357 alloy J frame about 10 ft lbs recoil.

The PC EZ9 is a hit with my wife. Just the right size grips, easy to load mags, simple controls and great sights.

She will shoot about anything but the EZ stays around her all the time.

I don’t disagree with you about the actual carry.

However the concern is more along the lines of administrative loading, shooting it for practice and proficiency etc. It’s a lot better if a person with limited hand strength can still independently operate and maintain the handgun.

The Girsan MC 14T is a copy of the Beretta 86. I like the idea s the Beretta 86s are fairly rare, hard to find and expensive if you find one.

But so far I’ve seen mixed reviews in regards to reliability, and reliability is key.

However the flip up barrel design has significant advantages not just in terms of eliminating the need t operate the slide to load it but also in terms of clearing the handgun, and being able to drop the hammer with the barrel flipped open to decock it.

But again, reliability is critical not just for self defense purposes, but in the overall context of not having to rack the slide, which is negated if you have to rack the slide to clear a malfunction.

A nice step up from 22LR would be 32 S&W Long. I plan to use wad cutters to get good penetration. Something like BB 100 gr WC for carry and I will use 71 or 85 gr plated reloads for practice; plated or jacketed required at my local indoor range, due to lead concerns. I have enough hand and wrist pain that that is getting to be my limit. S&W has announced a new Lipseys series of 32 and 38 cal versions of my M442. The 32 is in H&R Magnum, the 432 UC (ultimate carry). I tried a M43C, but had several concerns. Ammo reliability and suitability for defense, and a very heavy trigger pull, and after about 50 rounds, I had to clean the chambers. I think due to the cylinder being made of Aluminum and experiencing galling. The chambers were quite smooth, so that was not the problem. I needed a mallet to get ejection. 32 Long is probably the smallest reasonable step up from 22 LR, with center fire, for reliability.
For range use and home defense, women seem to like the M60 with a three inch barrel. My daughter learned on my dash 10 version in 1995. She liked the grip size and trigger reach. Could shoot standard reloads all day. I have medium hands and prefer the J frame also.

73,
Rick

Ruthie never warmed up to revolvers. At 4'10" and 118 lbs she is quite strong and the recoil of the LCP doesn't bother her nor does she have difficulty racking the slide or clearing a jam.

Besides, in her small hands* it looks like a Desert Eagle.

* another reason I married her.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan