Reminder that off-body carry is a caution

[Erich]

Just got a call from my brother. He's at a state park in Indiana (admission charged at a gate up front) with his two sons (5 & 9) and lady, and he ran across a sling pack sitting on a bench. He had a suspicion and looked inside: there was a pistol. (He said it was a Springfield Armory but I didn't press him beyond that.)

Called me and said, "What should I do?" (My brother carries and knows how to handle guns. He didn't want to just leave it there because he was afraid a kid might get into it.) I told him to pull the magazine, rack the slide and lock it open, and put it back in the pack, then take it to the cashier at the gate up front.

They were making their way to the gate when a super-panicked guy ran up to them on the trail: he was VERY relieved to get his pack back.

Whew!

I hope the owner of the pack tells a lot of people and they all learn vicariously from his bad experience.

[SnidelyWhiplash]

It's not all that uncommon for on-body carry to suffer similar mistakes. When a LEO there was occasionally an officer who had to use a public bathroom and doing so necessarily means removing your duty belt...sometimes to be left behind. The same goes for using a restroom and not wanting to have your sidearm rest on the floor...take it out of the holster and put it between your legs in your underwear.

Even though we're supposed to know better...sometimes it happens.

[Walkin Horse]

A friendly reminder I saw once

[Rubone]

Fisherman friend of mine found a tackle box with a S&W M&P 9mm in it along with assorted lures, etc.
He was way back in a wilderness area flyfishing when he found it and hadn't seen another person all day. No ranger stations or anything else nearby. I think he still has it, never fired it, and at a loss. I told him if it is a concern see if a LEO will run it for him, the owner may have reported it stolen. Or he may have been so embarrassed he wrote it off.

[03hemi]

Thought it was illegal to carry in a state park?

[Bald1]

It’s illegal in NY State Parks. Yet you can deer hunt in New York State Parks. Go figure

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Originally Posted by Erich

Whew!

I hope the owner of the pack tells a lot of people and they all learn vicariously from his bad experience.

Most men will never admit they made a mistake. Its Human Nature

[67tempest]

Stopped in a Porta-Potti at the Knob Creek machine gun shoot and found someone's pistol belt rig hanging on the wall. The thought of keeping it never entered my mind. I took it with me when I left and turned it in at the range office. I never took the pistol out of the holster so I couldn't say exactly what handgun it was. I hope the owner was re-united with his/her rig.

[Oldsalt66]

One of the most pertinent shortcomings of off body carry for women, is that criminals are most likely to make a grab and run attempt on their pocketbooks either making their gun inaccessible during the encounter, or running off with it entirely.

[RM Vivas]

The number of times folks have left their piece in the restroom is astonishing.

I think Robert Blake said that the night his wife was killed he had returned to the restaurant they had just left because he forgot his gun.

Smart guys will take their gun out of the holster, sit down to do their business, and then rest in the "hammock' of their underwear. Hard to forget it that way!

I do know one incident where a guy hung his off-duty Glock on the coat hook on the back of the door. hen he retrieved the gun he accidentally pushed it upwards, causing the hook to press on the trigger causing the gun to discharge into the ceiling, Recoil drove the gun back and the guys hand reflexively pushed forward. Repeat. Repeat. Etc. Wound up putting a dozen shots into the ceiling in a few seconds.

Best,
RM Vivas

[robertrwalsh]

I HATE off body carry. Of course that isn't the same thing as temporarily getting setting aside your piece to get rid of some used food.

[Farmer17]

I was riding my 4 wheeler with a buddy at a local ATV area by the lake and saw a backpack on the trail I thought about picking it up and turning it in, but figured it fell off another 4 wheeler and the owner would soon notice and come back for it. When we pulled up to the trailer a young guy on a dirt bike rides up and yells "hey mister you lost your backpack". He had seen me stop by and thought it was mine and handed it to me. I looked inside to see if there was any owner information and there was a locked cell phone, a baby Glock, and many other items. Things bounce a LOT on a 4 wheeler and I would really be nervous with a loaded Glock bouncing around in a bag with other stuff. I told him to ride straight to the park entrance and turn it in and tell them there was loaded gun inside, which he did. An OKC police officer was driving by a little later and I flagged him down and told him about it and was going to check to make sure it got to the rightful owner.

[TheTinMan]

Originally Posted by Oldsalt66

One of the most pertinent shortcomings of off body carry for women, is that criminals are most likely to make a grab and run attempt on their pocketbooks either making their gun inaccessible during the encounter, or running off with it entirely.

Yeah, I had the brilliant idea one super hot and humid summer day of carrying in a small, 1 strap shoulder pack. Went to the grocery store and set the pack where women typically set their purses - in the cart. Took about 90 seconds for me to conclude “bad plan”. I felt conspicuous walking through the store pushing a cart with the pack over my shoulder but I wasn’t about to leave it in that cart.

[71vette]

Originally Posted by 03hemi

Thought it was illegal to carry in a state park?

Sidearm carry is legal in Indiana state parks.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by 71vette

Sidearm carry is legal in Indiana state parks.

God bless America!

[BC38]

I had a similar experience ONE time when I had only been carrying for a year or so.
I was carrying in a fanny pack, which I removed to have a seat on the "throne" in a public toilet in a park.
I left it behind but I realized it within about a half hour.
By the time I got back there it was gone.
So I went to the local police station and was very relieved (and embarrassed) to find that the person who found it had turned it in.
I learned a lesson and it has never happened again in the 35 years since.

[ISCS Yoda]

In the world of agreeing that off-body carry is definitely problematic and I do not do it I must admit that there was a time that I did it regularly. I had my local cobbler sew two sections of seat belt material in the inside and on the outside of a soft briefcase that I used to carry everywhere. Outside for strength - sewed completely around - and inside connected to the outside but looped for hooking a holster into it. I had long forgotten it until I read this thread.

This goes so far back that it predates metal detectors in courthouses and I know this because I used to carry that briefcase to court on a regular basis. Further, much to my chagrin, on one occasion the defendant I had to interview was so bad that I had to interview him inside the jail that was attached to the courthouse and there I sat, in a roomful of goblins, with a loaded Chief's Special inside my briefcase. So that really dates this story for sure!

Only once was I ever separated from that briefcase (not counting leaving it in my truck - another no-no from decades ago) and I left it in a meeting room where a friend found it and looked inside. She was mortified, if not terrified. I came looking for it just in time.

Sometimes these experiences do not have negative results but they did teach me to never do it again.

And then almost 20 years later they passed concealed carry....but by then I never had a weapon off-body and I was never without my mousegun (Beretta 950BS) which morphed over time back into a J-frame and small 9mm pistols.

Thank for the memories! Totally forgotten until today!

[Muss Muggins]

There aren't many agencies that can't speak of an officer who left his/her pistol in a restroom. Our agency developed a one hour block during initial training that covered doing your business in public . . .

Edit: It was taught by the only officer we had that had done so (to the agency's knowledge), who happened to be a firearms instructor . . .

[Erich]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

I used to carry that briefcase

Good point. I've got a story that I won't be telling except around a campfire . . .

[CH4]

Originally Posted by Walkin Horse

A friendly reminder I saw once

I plead the 5th!

[Kevin J.]

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

I do know one incident where a guy hung his off-duty Glock on the coat hook on the back of the door. hen he retrieved the gun he accidentally pushed it upwards, causing the hook to press on the trigger causing the gun to discharge into the ceiling, Recoil drove the gun back and the guys hand reflexively pushed forward. Repeat. Repeat. Etc. Wound up putting a dozen shots into the ceiling in a few seconds.

Best,
RM Vivas

That would be bathroom bump stock.

[ImDrRichard]

Originally Posted by SnidelyWhiplash

It's not all that uncommon for on-body carry to suffer similar mistakes. When a LEO there was occasionally an officer who had to use a public bathroom and doing so necessarily means removing your duty belt...sometimes to be left behind. The same goes for using a restroom and not wanting to have your sidearm rest on the floor...take it out of the holster and put it between your legs in your underwear.

Even though we're supposed to know better...sometimes it happens.

Unfortunately, this is more common than one might think. I've personally heard too many stories that "two days later I realized my holster was empty. Then I panicked and finally remembered I had unholstered it to use the toilet. I went back there and of course it was gone."

[BC38]

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

...I do know one incident where a guy hung his off-duty Glock on the coat hook on the back of the door. hen he retrieved the gun he accidentally pushed it upwards, causing the hook to press on the trigger causing the gun to discharge into the ceiling, Recoil drove the gun back and the guys hand reflexively pushed forward. Repeat. Repeat. Etc. Wound up putting a dozen shots into the ceiling in a few seconds.

He hung his gun up on a hook by the trigger guard?!?
Who in the world would ever think that was a good idea?

[Super Trucker]

Originally Posted by RM Vivas

The number of times folks have left their piece in the restroom is astonishing.



I think Robert Blake said that the night his wife was killed he had returned to the restaurant they had just left because he forgot his gun.



Smart guys will take their gun out of the holster, sit down to do their business, and then rest in the "hammock' of their underwear. Hard to forget it that way!



I do know one incident where a guy hung his off-duty Glock on the coat hook on the back of the door. hen he retrieved the gun he accidentally pushed it upwards, causing the hook to press on the trigger causing the gun to discharge into the ceiling, Recoil drove the gun back and the guys hand reflexively pushed forward. Repeat. Repeat. Etc. Wound up putting a dozen shots into the ceiling in a few seconds.



Best,

RM Vivas

Actually smart guys fasten their belt near their knees and never remove the gun from its holster.
If they are concerned about those looking under the wall they can take the elastic part of their drawers and pull it over the grip, this also keeps gun oil out of their drawers.

A gun that doesn't leave a holster is very hard to have a ND with.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by BC38

He hung his gun up on a hook by the trigger guard?!?
Who in the world would ever think that was a good idea?

Like many things in law enforcement, it’s hard to explain to somebody who never had to actually deal with it. I don’t expect you to understand . . .

[Smoke]

I don't do off body carry. I've seen too many women leave their purses behind and I have a neighbor who had her pocketbook stolen out of her shopping cart in the time it took her to grab a Loaf of bread off the shelf.

I've never seen a CSPD cop in a public restroom. It never came up but it was a rule at every CSU/City facility I ever worked at that the employee restrooms were available to the police.

When I was working as a Rover I knew all the single occupancy restrooms on my route. I always went to one of them and put my handgun on a towel right in front of the door.

I don’t mean to offend but you'd have to be pretty dumb to put anything inside the trigger guard of a loaded handgun unless you were ready to shoot.

[NFrameFred]

A serious subject. Dealing with what it means to be human and LEO or not, acknowledging that there are at least a thousand and one things that can distract you, from having a troubled mind from the chewing you just took from your boss, to worrying about your sick kid at home, to your pending divorce, to the appointment you're already five minutes late for, to . . . . on and on and on. And for anyone that thinks "I'D NEVER DO THAT!", that's called "hubris".
Gotta be one of the most sickening, panicked feelings anyone could experience to realize they've left their CCW somewhere out of their control. Can't imagine having to deal with that after rushing back to find it's not where you left it . . .

[diyj98]

Originally Posted by BC38

He hung his gun up on a hook by the trigger guard?!?
Who in the world would ever think that was a good idea?

Not a smart move for sure.

I know an FBI agent that went to dinner with her husband and parents. On the car ride back from the restaurant, she discovered that she'd left her purse containing her pistol in the booth. She called the restaurant and luckily they found it before it was stolen.

[Erich]

A local cop was disciplined a few years back after she did the same thing.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Like many things in law enforcement, it’s hard to explain to somebody who never had to actually deal with it. I don’t expect you to understand . . .

If your law-enforcement wisdom and experience means you think that was a GOOD idea, then yeah, you're right. I don't understand...

[Autonomous]

Hanging a loaded gun, especially one without a conventional safety, on a hook is stupid as evidenced by the results.
Even worse is having so little awareness and control that you loose a dozen rounds in random directions in an occupied building.
I don't know if that sort of incompetence can be trained out.

[SnidelyWhiplash]

This is not about off-body carry...so I apologize for that. It is a cautionary story...and absolutely true.

About 25+ years ago when I was an instructor and LEO...we were having our semi-annual qualifications for all in the agency and we used the range for the local county police.

In the cleaning room there was a 9mm size hole in the wall with a sign over it saying "Glock 17" and the name of the offending agency. What happened was the agency involved was having qualifications and there was an apparently attractive woman officer. So...the Lieutenant wanted to make some points with her and was going to show her how to field strip her issue Glock.

Anyone familiar with a Glock knows you have to release the sear prior to removing the slide. Well...the all-knowing LT dropped the magazine but didn't clear the chamber before squeezing the trigger and fired the piece.

I followed the trajectory of the round. It went through the wall...then through the adjacent housekeeping closet. From there it went through the women's bathroom. There was no one in there so I followed the trajectory further. It went through one stall...through the second stall with a slight ricochet off the inside of the door through the stall wall out across the room and through the outer wall where it went who knows where.

There were fortunately no injuries but if anyone was sitting in one of the stalls and was constipated they wouldn't have been after that!

The agency involved offered to make repairs but the host agency declined...the wanted to keep it as a learning tool.

The safety rules are there for a reason.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by NFrameFred

And for anyone that thinks "I'D NEVER DO THAT!", that's called "hubris".

I don't understand this statement. I don't do off body carry. The only possible exception to that is when I'm sitting at home for the day and I'm wearing gym shorts and a t-shirt or pajama bottoms and a t-shirt or whatever else you couldn't carry a gun while you were wearing in which case my gun is sitting on the coffee table right in front of me.

If I never offbody carry then I can confidently say that I will never leave my gun behind

[NFrameFred]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I don't understand this statement. I don't do off body carry. The only possible exception to that is when I'm sitting at home for the day and I'm wearing gym shorts and a t-shirt or pajama bottoms and a t-shirt or whatever else you couldn't carry a gun while you were wearing in which case my gun is sitting on the coffee table right in front of me.

If I never offbody carry then I can confidently say that I will never leave my gun behind

There's been a split in the original premise of carrying "off body" (briefcase, shoulder pouch, etc.) and those who have related inadvertently leaving their piece after laying it aside temporarily (usually on the toilet or such). I've never done it but have believed many when they say they have and being human, I can understand how some of the intense personal distractions I cited could cause some to do just that. I would like to think I never would, but when my father was on his deathbed in the hospital I laid my cell phone aside to wash my hands and walked off and left it on the sink in a hospital lavatory. Fortunately I caught my mistake before going too far and retrieved it before someone picked it up. Suffice to say, I was distracted and not in a great place mentally. I was just saying that it's dangerous to say "I'd never do that" about a lot of most of the things we fallible humans find ourselves doing. I've always followed the thought of "never say 'never'".

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by NFrameFred

There's been a split in the original premise of carrying "off body" (briefcase, shoulder pouch, etc.) and those who have related inadvertently leaving their piece after laying it aside temporarily (usually on the toilet or such). I've never done it but have believed many when they say they have and being human, I can understand how some of the intense personal distractions I cited could cause some to do just that. I would like to think I never would, but when my father was on his deathbed in the hospital I laid my cell phone aside to wash my hands and walked off and left it on the sink in a hospital lavatory. Fortunately I caught my mistake before going too far and retrieved it before someone picked it up. Suffice to say, I was distracted and not in a great place mentally. I was just saying that it's dangerous to say "I'd never do that" about a lot of most of the things we fallible humans find ourselves doing. I've always followed the thought of "never say 'never'".

I agree with this post.

On the topic of public restrooms I haven't had this issue since I retired.

TMI Warning: Every morning I eat 4 prunes. at around dinner time I have 3 more. I haven't had any reason to relieve myself in public since I retired.

[rockquarry]

My off-body carry for my snubnose revolver is usually the console of my car. I never worry about leaving it in stall #3.

[RETDOE]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I don’t mean to offend but you'd have to be pretty dumb to put anything inside the trigger guard of a loaded handgun unless you were ready to shoot.

And yet Blackhawk has made a small fortune selling a holster that inserts a plastic thing in the trigger guard that you can't see causing a whole world of problems from ND's to locking the weapon in the holster and not able to remove the weapon.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by RETDOE

And yet Blackhawk has made a small fortune selling a holster that inserts a plastic thing in the trigger guard that you can't see causing a whole world of problems from ND's to locking the weapon in the holster and not able to remove the weapon.

Are you talking about the tab that locks around the FRONT of the trigger guard in the Blackhawk molded Kydex retention holsters? The one with the push button release?

Like this one?



I'd be really interested to read the details of a documented case where the retention device in a Blackhawk holster contacted the trigger of a holstered pistol, resulting in a ND. Can you provide a link to such a case? Maybe my Google-fu is weak today, because I couldn't find any.

Since the locking tab inside the trigger guard is on the opposite side - away from the trigger - and the gun cannot be forced forward far enough for it to get anywhere near the trigger, I'd like to read an explanation of how that is even possible.

As for it locking the gun in the holster, I can see where the retention device might break or be jammed up to where you can't get it to release by pushing the button.

But I'm having a hard time imagining any scenario where the retention system in a Blackhawk holster could lead to a ND.

Please, share any info you may have uncovered about that issue with us all...

[Muss Muggins]

The real issue with the BlackHawk Serpa holsters is that the retention device assembly is incredibly fragile. It was a rare range session that didn't see one of those assemblies explode, immediately modifying a retention holster into a non-retention holster. The retention device is constructed such that it engages immediately after the front of the trigger guard passes it, and it snaps into place well forward of the trigger. The form fitting design of the holster prevents the pistol from moving further into the holster, thus preventing the retention lever from ever contacting the trigger.

Glock negligent discharges generally occur in one of two main scenarios. The first is holstering the pistol with your finger on the trigger. I have seen this happen, and rendered first aid to the officer, who suffered a through and through to the side of the buttock. Luckily, no others on the line were injured when the bullet struck the gravel deck.

The second is holstering the pistol with a foreign object in the trigger guard. The most common culprit is the cord lock on a drawstring about the waist of a jacket. I haven't seen one of these, but I know others who have . . .

Edit: I say Glock, but the above scenarios are possible with any striker fired pistol without a manual external safety engaged prior to holstering . . .

[Claymore33]

Originally Posted by SnidelyWhiplash

It's not all that uncommon for on-body carry to suffer similar mistakes. When a LEO there was occasionally an officer who had to use a public bathroom and doing so necessarily means removing your duty belt...sometimes to be left behind. The same goes for using a restroom and not wanting to have your sidearm rest on the floor...take it out of the holster and put it between your legs in your underwear.

Even though we're supposed to know better...sometimes it happens.

I was talking to a Dr friend and told him that I carry everyday everywhere. I asked him if he knew the hardest part of concealed carry . He guessed correctly , it is sitting on toilet. and of course as you stated, you need to remove pistol from holster. Only place to put it that is not filthy in public bathroom is in your underwear. If you go COMMANDO , I can't help you !

[steelslaver]

If I need to do a sit down that is exactly where mine goes. In my drawers

[Mr. Vito]

Yet another reason that pocket carry is easier. When sitting down at a public toilet, the holstered, pocketed firearm just sags down by your shoes, but never touches the ground. Very unlikely to fall out and be left behind. I own a million holsters (I've thought of opening a holster museum!) but most of the time I pocket carry my Ruger LC9s or S&W 642 in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster.

[pawngal]

I cringe whenever purse carry is mentioned. You'd be better off with no gun. Purse snatching is fairly easy, your gun is gone, your phone is gone, your ID, credit cards, cash is all gone. And if you resist you could get shot with your own gun. No thanks.

[WR Moore]

In addition to what's mentioned by pawngal, I've seen purses in supermarket carts where I'm the only person in that aisle and it's not mine. Forgot something in the last aisle? Then there's the pile of coats, purses and whatnot on a bed at parties. And the purse stashed in one of the desk drawers-unlocked desk drawers-at work. Purse snatchings can happen at work too, depending upon where one works.

Whilst on the throne, my carry piece goes down the pant leg on the inside of the leg. Instantly available and pointed in a safe direction.

[Thom_44]

Originally Posted by SnidelyWhiplash

It's not all that uncommon for on-body carry to suffer similar mistakes. When a LEO there was occasionally an officer who had to use a public bathroom and doing so necessarily means removing your duty belt...sometimes to be left behind. The same goes for using a restroom and not wanting to have your sidearm rest on the floor...take it out of the holster and put it between your legs in your underwear.

Even though we're supposed to know better...sometimes it happens.

not the "underwear bandoleer" **** again. EVERYONE knows that whence in the 60s and 70s, in the lovely city of new york, it was standard for cops to hang the gun and belt on the hook on the stall door.

criminals quickly learned to reach over the stall door and run away with belt and gun.

Sarcastic cops started hangin the belt on the hook, but held the gun in hand, and started shooting when the mysterious hand reached over and started grabbing the gun belt.

Others merely used the belt as a bandoleer and kept track of things that way. Although over time, it became 1 cop used the stall, the other would be standing in the corner in the bathroom.

[Model 15-4ever]

Originally Posted by BC38

But I'm having a hard time imagining any scenario where the retention system in a Blackhawk holster could lead to a ND.

Please, share any info you may have uncovered about that issue with us all...

This is of course off topic but I've witnessed it twice and watched a video on another one, and read several reports of other occurrences.

1. The SERPA a weak system that fails under hard use, and has a tendency to readily jam from foreign matter such and sand, to a much higher degree than other designs.

2. The placement of the release button and use of the trigger finger that has resulted in many ADs, especially under stress/time constraints. The two I witnessed were by trained LEO, and one was a firearms instructor. At the range I ran I banned them, and subsequently the FBI did as well.

Trigger finger as ONE job, and it's not releasing the pistol from the holster.