Lately I've had growing concerns over the possibility that I may one day have to defend myself against an attack by coyotes, dogs, or possibly even wolves. This concern is not unwarranted either, as lately I've been hearing a lot of barking and howling coming from the woods surrounding my property.

I typically carry a subcompact .40cal pistol such as my M&P40c or Shield when I go out, but when I'm around my house I usually just have a Ruger LCP in my pocket, which up until now I've had total confidence in, but all that barking and howling has unnerved me to the point that I'm having second thoughts and wondering if I ought to be carrying .40 S&W full-time.

I'd like to hear from some folks who've actually had to defend themselves against animal attacks of the sort. I know that sort of thing isn't especially common for civilians, but we have a fair amount of active/retired LEOs here who I presume most likely have some experience on the matter, and while most cops don't carry .380 ACP, a lot of officers have carried .38 Special or 9mm Parabellum, so if neither of those are particularly effective then I can safely say that .380 ACP wouldn't be either.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Didn't the governor of Texas kill a coyote with an LCP loaded with hollow points a few years ago?

I think 380 would be enough. Dogs are thin skinned.

But wolves? I don't know about that.

Especially if you are attacked by a pack. That seems like the time for a high capacity 9mm.

Just like in most shootings, where the bullet is placed is probably the determining factor. While a 380 would not be my first choice, a well placed head or heart shot would probably do the trick. It might not put a large animal down quite as fast as a larger more powerful caliber but it’s better than a 22.

Several years ago I had a co-worker whose brother was carrying an LCP while out on a morning run. He heard a dog running up behind him, turned and realized a Rottweiler was charging him. He was able to draw his pistol, and fire two rounds at the Rottweiler once it jumped and was in midair.

My co-worker didn't know where the hits were, but he said when it landed it was DRT. I don't think he knew what ammo was used, either.

I don't know if the outcome would be the same every time, but it worked that time.

Dogs are not that hard to kill. They can be hard to hit. Any reasonable .380 load should do the job if you can hit with it. I have unfortunately had to shoot two pits attacking me. One incident I was carrying a .38 snubby. One was a full-size 10mm. Both did the job with one shot. Both were straight-on chest shots. Shot placement is the primary criteria. Adequate penetration is a very important secondary criteria. Dogs are not that 'thick.' Any suitable anti-personnel load should do fine on a dog. Even a hella big dog seldom weighs more than a largish adult man.

Any gun is better than no gun.That being said..my Keltec P32 (and 3AT) hardly travel in my pocket any longer as my 642 is only a bit bigger but has a lot more bark.

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My Daddy was a pistol..

Yep. Our governor can outshoot your governor.

Texas Governor Rick Perry'''s jog sparks '''Coyote Special''' pistols | ABC13 Houston | abc13.com - ABC13 Houston

Never attacked by a dog. I did kill 4 of a pack that attacked our chickens in the yard...but I used a M-15 38 sp.. That said I was "attacked" by a rabid coon in my barn. I grabbed a loaded M-39 when I heard a commotion outside by the chickens in the pen. When the coon saw me it immediately came towards me. I had to shoot it 6 times with 9mm 115 gr ball...all at 10-15 feet. I know it wasn't the guns fault but I shortly sold the M-39. 45 time. I honestly thought I was going to have to run over the coon with the tractor and disc. I had just come in for lunch from working a 5 acre strawberry patch we had to plant. Animal control came and got it to be tested...Positive

Make sure that any shots at a skull are straight on not angling. A friend had to shoot a large dog that took 2 angling shots in the head. The body shot was the put down shot. 38 special solids that angled across the top of the skull without penetration.

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Front sight and squeeze

IDK about caliber, but I'm seeing too many weirdo's with spastic pit bulls. One tweaker's Rottweiler lunged at me when I met it on the bike path. Dogs are a definite concern.
My friend got attacked by pit bulls while riding her horse.

I guess it depends...



I would load some Underwood hollowpoints if it were me.

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Many years ago I helped my uncle in his butcher shop. We dispatched a lot of hogs and beef with 1 shot from a .22 Short.
It's about shot placement. That's been said thousands times thousands of time before. I .22 Short in the right place is more effective than a bad placement with .44 Mag.
When we were issued the S&W 39 I was breaking in a new Troop. We had a car hit deer to dispatch. He emptied his 39 into the deer's head and it was still alive. He complained the 9mm wasn't powerful enough to kill a deer. I had a Ruger Single Six in my squad and used 1 shot to kill the deer. I then showed him where all his 9mm rds had hit. Not a single shot hit the brain. All of his rds hit in the nasal passage of the deer. He didn't know where to aim to kill a deer. He thought he was shooting the deer between the eyes to hit the brain. Not so. His rds were well below the brain.
When people complain X rd won't kill such and such animal because they shot it Umpteen times and it was still alive only shows they didn't hit it in the vitals and tells nothing about the rd they were using.
To answer your question - if you get a brain or spine shot with a .380 it will definitely do the job. Do a lung, shoulder, hip shot and maybe it will deter the animal, maybe not, depends on the determination of the animal, no different than a human getting hit.

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183rd FBINA

Proper shot placement is a lot easier to pull off while hunting animals than it is while they're hunting you. So although it may be extremely easy to take out a dog with a .22 Short by hitting it in just the right spot, I'm not confident in my own ability to do so while one is changing straight at me, has knocked me to the ground, or is biting into my forearm, which is unfortunately going to be the most likely scenario in which I choose to fire a shot at a dog. Otherwise, I don't have any reason nor desire to do so.

Besides, I'm not even sure exactly what I'm dealing with here because I've yet to see what animal is making those sounds, all I can tell is that it's canine. I dunno if it's coyotes, wild dogs, or wolves, all I know is that it doesn't sound friendly and that I'm worried about the possibility that I may one day need to defend myself against it with a weapon which may not be adequate.

So yeah, I'd prefer to carry something that does more damage so that even if my shot placement isn't perfect, then it's still going to make a mess of wherever it does hit.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

FWIW, I was a dog warden for years before being a cop. We didn't shoot dogs but had to frequently deal with the aftermath. They were usually OIS, but sometimes citizens had to shoot dogs as well. I can recall two shootings involving 380 auto pistols, both with FMJ ammo. In one instance, a homeowner in the inner city shot a 90 pound German shepherd that was on his front porch. For some reason, the dog would not let the man leave his house...it charged him every time the man came out his front door as he tried to leave for work. The man went into his house and retrieved an Astra Constable 380. One shot with FMJ into the chest from straight on and the dog was DRT. The second incident involved a gas station owner who came to the rescue of a man being mauled by a 50 pound pit bull near his job. 2 rounds of FMJ and the dog was DRT.

As it has been noted here by others...dogs are not that hard to kill, really. I think racoons are more tenacious of life. Shot placement is absolutely the most important consideration, assuming penetration. Hunters understand this. On my department, many officers have had to shoot dogs and it required multiple shots. Why? Usually poor shot placement. In many of these cases the officers blamed the "inadequate" 9mm for instant stops when they had no idea of dog anatomy. I was attacked once by a 60 pound German shepherd/Chow mix that lunged at me. I fired from near contact distance from retention position. The subsonic 147 grain winchester load(the original one) broke his shoulder and completely penetrated the dog lengthwise. It left a nickle size hole on the exit from his hip. He dropped at the shot, got back up biting at both holes, ran a short distance and died. I recall as a Dog Warden that back in the day when Cleveland Police officers shot dogs with the 38 special 158 grain lead swc Plus p (NOT hollow point) there was generally complete penetration from any angle and good stopping effect.

I would think a 380 would be fine, assuming good shot placement. Of course, there are always outliers. An angry 150 pound mastiff that got into his owners meth might be more of a challenge. Any dog engaged in a furious attack would likewise be more of a challenge from the tenacity of life and also marksmanship issues of a quickly moving target. Skill at arms trumps caliber and type of gun.

If you can hit them, I suspect it would do the trick

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Forum consigliere

A large dog with a weight closer to a human is mentally tougher than most people. That means that the shot has to be good. My dog walking gun is usually a 296 with Blazer 200 grain Gold Dots, as I expect that if a dog attacks us the shot will be at or near contact distance. In general, if the platform is not one you would carry for personal defense against bad guys, it is probably not a good choice against canids.

Another consideration is that you could run into a PACK, which is a different tactical problem. Dogs gone feral can be quite dangerous and tenacious. I think coyotes are not as much of a problem physically; they are generally small. Wolves are unlikely to want to meet you, but can be big and tough.

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NHI, 10-8.

One time I was attacked by a German Shepherd mix in my neighborhood and luckily I had pepper spray on me. The effect was immediate and super effective. I was carrying that day and my predominant thought after the incident was would I have even been able to shoot the dog had I not had the pepper or needed to use more lethal force. The dog was moving around like crazy and the odds I would have hit him one out three shots was probably 50/50. I’m also in a neighborhood with kids running around down the street and houses and cars on both sides of me. I’m not saying I couldn’t have shot the dog, but it would t have been an easy task.

Pepper Spray worked for me. I actually missed the dog. The spray went over his head. He got enough of it to make him back down and start sneezing. It was funny. I just walked away glad that I didn’t have to shoot someone’s pet.

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Two Handguns every day

The worst part about this situation is that I really don't know precisely what I'm dealing with, I only know that its canine and there are at least a few of them, and that's what worries me most is the idea of getting attacked by a pack of whatever it is as opposed to just one.
Granted, I've heard that in most cases, if you wound one then the others will scatter, but who knows if that's always the case?

Lately I've been avoiding going for walks because of this, which wasn't a big deal because it's been freezing outside anyway, but now Spring is coming, the weather is getting warmer, and I don't want to let fear keep me captive.

Now the problem is that I'm thinking that the low capacity may be a bigger problem than the cartridge, seeing as the Ruger LCP only holds 6 rounds in the magazine, and the same goes for my M&P40 Shield which I typically carry during warm weather.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I have pepper spray but it stays mostly in my car, so not of much use, except if you rush up to my window to say hello.

I too, would hate to shoot someone’s dog, but I’m not getting bit more than once.

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Sure you did

49 years ago a buddy and I were back in a wilderness area of a national forest scouting for archery season. No firearms (or bows) with us. We had hiked in nearly three miles, located the place to site our camp and scouting for sign when we had a nasty encounter with a pack of 8 feral dogs (there was NO house within 4 miles of us in any direction). The surrounded us growling and making feints toward us. I really wasn’t scared of being killed (though maybe I should have been) but I was scared to death of being bitten and winding up with rabies shots. Carl and I wound up retreating up a handy tree. The milled around growling and snarling for over an hour before they finally wandered off. We waited a bit then cautiously made our way back to my Scout. Came back the following day with an old Winchester 92 44-40 and an M1 carbine and permanently solved that problem. That was the last time I went back in the toolies sans firearm. A .380 (or even a .22) will do the job IF you do yours.

Old guy here! Real long time ago a article was written about feral dogs in a gun mag. I think, repeat think it was written by Gary James.
I do not remember the area involved but there were lots of these dog packs around and they had a hell of a bad reputation.

A bunch of people were going to reducer their number significantly and the author wrote about what weapons to carry.

This was long before the AR style carbines and his suggested load out was to carry as big of capacity long gun as you could. His choices back then was the M1 carbine or some lever action rifles. Then he suggested carry a couple pistols with one of them being a Browning HP as backup. He finished up with also carry a Bowie type knife.

Like I said this was long ago but I do remember some details OK.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

A pack of any kind of canines can be daunting.

When I'm out walking, with or without my dog, I'm never without one of my snubbies, oftentimes a Colt Cobra instead of my M649 so I have six rounds.

I love canines so much I really never want to have to shoot one.

So, that's neighborhood walking. Should I ever find myself in the boonies again then some form of 686+ will be with me.

Hunting is a whole nuthuh smoke, of course, because then a rifle is with me.

There's always knives.....when I walk without my dog I carry a sword cane. It's useful for balance.....etc.

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Come and take it!!

I would certainly carry a carbine or even a shotgun if I were intent on hiking through the woods, but I was only intending to go for walks down the road and I'm pretty sure that any motorists who saw me hiking with an "Assault Rifle" strapped to my back would most likely be perturbed and might even call the police.

There are woods surrounding the area and the road runs through it, sometimes animals cross the road, so I'm worried that I might encounter whatever is out there howling/barking while I go for walks down the road and back, but I don't actually intend on going into the woods, so I just want to carry something concealed like I ordinarily do.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Face it, if you put a shot or so anywhere in the enemy, it’ll be a lot easier to finish it off with darn near anything you pick up as a weapon. Or chase it off. Any firearm should be looked at as a good start.

Many years ago coworker told me a story about deer hunting in muzzle loader season. He was in a tree stand and a pack of dogs surrounded his tree and showed no signs of leaving any time soon. So he shot one of them with his BP rifle. He reloaded it and shot another one. He said the rest decided it was time to leave and took off.

When walking I’m armed of course. But I also use a ski pole as a walking stick.

I jabbed a pit bull in the face one morning. He yelped and ran off. The next morning he stayed on his side of the street. He gave me a dirty look as I passed by.

I also zapped a pit bull in the behind with a baton style stun gun. He still hasn’t forgiven me. But keeps his distance.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I am admittently a dog lover and was a LE officer for over 36 yrs. I never had to kill a dog and I am very glad for that. I often think that people shoot dogs when it is not necessary. Maybe it makes them feel macho or something. I live in rural Colorado. I walk, hike in the mountains and camp with my dogs and sometimes have had three labs with while out and about. I have had dogs approach me or us but rarely have felt threatened. I feel that dogs often know dog people and who likes them and respond accordingly. Not sure where all you people are encountering these vicious dogs that need killing. maybe I have just been lucky in all my years! I do carry all the time, everywhere and I am prepared to dispatch any sort of two or four legged mincrient that becomes a problem.

About 12 years ago a MI state Trooper shot a Rottweiller with a 40 Remington HP. The bullet in the neck and the bullet stopped after hitting a light nylon collar. The bullet was ineffective, one petal moved slightly. The bullet was removed and fortunately the dog was fine, I was asked to come in and verify the type, caliber of bullet. The Trooper went to a park to get a family off a lake and the Rotty was sleeping under the trailer and starting approaching and barking when the trooper started yelling to the family. The trooper was fine, so was the dog, so were the family. A friend in NYPD used his 9mm to stop an attacking pitbull, with one shot to the head, while on duty. He is a hunter. As was stated above a 22 lr in the brain in the correct place will stop any canid. I have had Rotts for nearly forty years, if you come to my house and are a friend, one will be on each side of you with their head in your lap. If you try to crawl through a window at O Dark Thirty, I do not believe our current male would be friendly. I have put a deer down after shot with a bow with a single shot of 22 lr, you need to know anatomy. The minimum caliber that I would carry is a 38 snub with Gold Dot short barrel loads for most dogs or coyotes. I live where there are wolves, Mountain lions, bears, coyotes, so I carry a SW 40 or a speed six 357 minimum if I go into the woods. To the mailbox, I will carry a snub 38 with a speedloader, and my male Rottie Jax, no one bothers us. In the last 35 years living here all of my neighbors children were allowed to play with the dogs with my supervision. I will tell you, do not make an aggressive move towards my wife or myself since the dogs will not accept that. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Add a magazine (+1) pinky extension and a Magguts +1 magazine follower/spring kit and you can up your capacity from 6+1 to 8+1.
Works great for my P3AT (the gun the LCP was patterned after).
YMMV...

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

This thread got me thinking along those lines. I'm figuring out how many bites I would take before I shoot a dog. Like a Tootsie Pop.

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Because of the metric system?

I used to ride a bicycle to work. On and early morning shift, I was opening the gate (first one to work) and was harassed by a small pack of small dogs at 4:30 a.m. They would bark and feint an attack. Each time they got bolder. Having had enough, I carried a .25 ACP pistol to work. When they started, I fired one shot in their direction. I doubt that it was a hit, as it was pitch dark with no artificial light anywhere near. It did stop them from ever again ambushing me at the gate. I didn't own any pepper spray at the time and never considered it, but it would have probably been a better choice.

In the early eighties I was stationed overseas. One night as I walked home from a restaurant I was set upon by a pack of feral dogs that came at me out of a gully and into the ill-lit street. I shot the lead dog with a .380 ACP PPK/S. Hit it in the chest. The others turned around so fast that it seemed that tails suddenly sprouted where their heads had been. Rabies was endemic in that nation. I would say yes, the round is plenty for dogs. Don't know about wolves.

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Stercus Accidit

I used to live in a county where people loved dogs and hated bicyclists. I sprayed many an attacking dog with Halt dog spray. It's the stuff mailmen use. It worked every time. You just had to trust it to work, and you had to wait until the dog was close then give it to the mutt right in the kisser. I modified the mounting clip so that it drew like a pistol from my side, clipped to my pocket. It was so bad over there that I would not get on my bike without my Halt spray. As you can see by the picture, I duct taped that metal clip to the can so that it hung upside down with the nozzle pointing towards my leg. I could grab it without looking, just like drawing a gun. It saved me many a day. I used it A LOT over there.

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My friends did penetration tests with their 380's (Glocks). They claimed it went through 6 water filled milk jugs.

I was a mailman for a year in the mid 80's. (Hated that job.) I worked with a woman who showed me nasty scars front and back on her legs. She had been attacked by two German Shepherds. One would attack from the front, and while she was spraying it with the little spray cans they issued. the other would attack from the rear. And so on. She told me she was off work for quite a while, but what stuck with me was she said the spray had no effect at all. One incident, I know, but my takeaway from her experience was the spray won't stop a dog or dogs who are in full attack fury. Probably works pretty well against dogs who are mostly bluffing. Again...just one incident.

A quick related story. I was only bitten once in my year on the job. Walked up to a screen room to put the mail in the box, small yapping dog was jumping against the screen door. Older woman saw me coming, and without thinking cracked open the door to take the mail from me. Dog flew through the opening and bit me on the front of my right foot, above my shoe. While he was biting me, I punted him. He flew back, and as he bounced off the screen I clubbed him with the mail I was still holding in my right hand. He went yelping back into the room. Woman was looking at me with her mouth open, and I said "Appreciate you opening the door, maam." Whole thing took 5 seconds.

As for the effectiveness of .380, I hope it works. I walk three miles every morning in a semi rural area, and I pocket carry a .380 as much for possible four legged attacks as two legged.

CROTCH SHOT.........Works on ALL males...........

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S&W Accumulator

I remember that issue!! We called it the "Feral Dog" issue of whatever magazine it was and it served as a permanent coffee book magazine for the coffee table at his parents country house on the northshore! Had a GREAT picture of a snarling dog on the cover-this was back in the late 70's

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Forum consigliere

....of all species

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Forum consigliere

Feral dogs are not to be taken lightly. I saw them take down my buddy on a motor cycle (at 65mph)."Pets" can be dangerous, too. I was once ambushed by a pair of german shepherds, as I walked down a public sidewalk. The owner was in the drive way, working on his car.

Where I live and play now, feral dogs and other canines (pets, coyotes, wolves)are all possible. Throw in a moose or bad human, and I would not settle for less than a .357.
To the OP, a .380 is more than adequate for your purposes. A spray is probably a good idea, too. But, it never hurts to have a little more capability, than you think you'll need.

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George

A small container of pepper mace in addition to a gun would be a wise option.

I can't figure out why you were out there without a gun to begin with.
To me that’s unthinkable.

Good placement under stress is a lot less likely. If I had to go someplace predicting a pack of feral dogs (which are probably more dangerous than a similar pack of coyotes or wolves as dogs do not have the same innate fear of humans), the minimum I would be carrying is my RDS equipped Glock 17.

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NHI, 10-8.

Yeah, but how do you get rover to turn around in the middle of his attack so you can make that shot?

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

A buddy once asked me if I took a gun with me when I went into the woods. I told him, "No. I take several."

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The best I can with what I got

I remember reading a lengthy gun magazine article years ago about how dangerous wild dogs were getting in rural Georgia, and recommended guns and cartridges for defense against them.

We have a ton of javelina here and they aren't shy. The coyote tend to be shy, as are the bobcats who enjoy the pack rats and rabbits.
When I take my dog out at night, I bring a flashlight and shine it into the brush and have seen javelina eyes pretty close, watching us. One night, a few ran across the driveway in front of us, but a good sized male broke away and came at us. I bring a LCR with .22 high vel rounds in it, drew it and took one shot. He immediately turned and ran into the brush. Next day I found him DRT about 50 feet into the brush, seemed over 50 pounds. I couldn't find the entry point, but it must have been a good one.
I hate those things, I've actually heard them on the front porch.

When we lived in Ft. Stockton TX my mom made
Sloppy Joes from pressure cooked Javelina.

The thing I hate about them is when they clack
their teeth and growl before they come for you.

And they run in packs

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never get out of the boat

Four legged critters should be shot in the lungs. They know they are hurt and will run off to die.

What were they using? I have used many 380 HP's and most never exited the first jug. If they were using FMJ's I suppose they could get more than one jug, but six I would love to know what brand, and bullet. Thank You. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE