Great information and thank you for sharing.

From my LEO experiences the 158 LRN got its job done too. When we went to the +P 125 JHP it did well too.

In retirement I am using Winchester 125 grain +P JHP.

Did you shoot it out of an alloy snub? Recoil?

Well now. I just finished testing (seat of the pants) The Buffalo Bore 19E "Lower" Recoil/Low Flash ammo in a 3" Kimber K6s. It appears to be loaded with a Hornady 158 gr. XTP. I fired 48 rounds at 30' all double action and I did not attempt to stage the trigger, just straight pull through. I was able to keep all rounds navel to upper chest and well centered left and right on the standard ATF silhouette target. I fired double taps with about 2-3 seconds between sets and did not lower the revolver until it was time to reload.
I am not recoil shy but 8 cylinders full was enough without risking a sore hand.



I "perceived" the felt recoil to be less than the .357 Mag. WW 145 gr. Silvertips, posted MV of 1,290 (536 ft. lbs.) barrel length unknown, I have been shooting but not by much.


BB posts a MV of 1,172 (481 ft. lbs.) from a 3" S&W M-65 with the 19E load which is 23 ft. lbs. more than their .38 Spec.+P FBI LSWCHP-GC with a posted MV of 1,143 (458 ft. lbs.) from a 3" Ruger SP101 with the 20A load. The .38 load seems to shoot "softer" than what the numbers would lead you to believe...might be the cast bullet...


Positive: The Hornady XTP has a good reputation for penetration and this is the cleanest .38/.357 factory ammo I have ever fired, ever, and I have fired thousands of rounds On an overcast day on a covered firing line there was no distracting flash firing with both eyes open.


Negative: This is most likely the lowest MV which will give any expansion from a readily available JHP. You can change weight and velocity but its an endless spiral chasing "enough" to give the energy, expansion and penetration to get the job done. But in a light weight, short barreled gun it is still a bit too much...


We need the Rim Rock LSWHP loaded to 950-975 fps from a 2-3" barrel in both .38 Spec and .357 Mag.


Best and good luck to you all.

Here is a review of Hornady .38 Critical Defense.

https://www.targetbarn.com/broad-sid...gr-ftx-review/
Penetration was good but expansion was not. Still, I would feel well armed with this round.

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In all my j-frames, for carry, the Winchester Silvertip 110gr 38spl has been my go-to for years.

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Heavily armed old man.

My wife brough home a S&W 360 J 357mag late last year that weights 15 oz empty and I have an old taurus 85 ss 38sp . First change made was a apex J frame trigger kit and next was a hogue mono rubber grip so 3 fingers can be used on it to help with absorbing recoil with the s&w . Now its shoot able for me with old rem 158gr sjhp and its a good solid all around load But not for my wife. Shes prefers the federal 130gr hst micro .

I hope we never need to carry a short barrel revolver as to many 9mm, 40sw and 45 just out preform these 357mag or 38sp .

All handgun bullets in .38 SPL and .357 mag. can fail to stop. Shot placement is king. I've killed small Texas deer from 40-50 yards with a Super Vel 137 gr. jacketed soft point with a 4" S&W model 28, back in the day. In my opinion, penetration trumps expansion.

In my Kimber K6 I carry the Winchester 145gr Silvertip .357mag. They seem to be on the ragged edge of comfort. But the LHP +P 38Spc (FBI Load) works well with a long history of success.
Frankly I don't think you gain much going from .38 to .357 in a short barrel. The downside is a lot of muzzle flash, recoil, noise.
As for over penetration, we used to say "no gun fight was lost due to over penetration."

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At 24 oz, my Kimber is heavy enough that just about any 357 is manageable. My question was intended to find a suitable round for one of the aluminum alloy revolvers.

As for 357 v 38 in a short barrel…357 is a significantly better performer; check out the luckygunner labs and see how much more consistently 357 performs out of a 2” barrel. It’s really not even close…..

The standard is 12-19 inches of penetration. Just about all of them do that, with the .357s tending to over penetrate. Given the downsides of flash and recoil in the .357 I just don't see much advantage. But YMMV.

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I actually don’t know of any 38 round that consistently reaches that standard in FBI ballistic gel with denim AND fully expands…the closest would seem to be the Buffalo Bore and Underwood LSWCHP rounds…and those, when they fully expand, only get to the lower end of that penetration range. They also kick like a 357, so I’m not sure what the upside is.

The full power 357 magnum can be a handful in an Air Weight J-Frame .
I can handle the 38 Special +P loads nicely ( I'm pushing 75 years old) .
For practice I load , in 38 special brass, a 158 grain lead SWC over
5.3 grs. Unique (982 fps) ... or ...
5.2 grs 231 / HP-38 (956 fps) with same bullet .
These loads work well in snub nose barrels and are not too hard on gun or shooter . My 637 Air Weight is 38 Spcl+P rated and only weighs 14 ounces ... and I Just Love It !!!
Gary

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Nice load tips, gwpercle.
After many years on the 'net, I've started wondering why 12-18" or more is the "premium" ballistic gel test. The human body is a lot less thick than the 12-18" tests. And the fatality hits are shorter than that.

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Because extensive testing showed a correlation between bullets that perform that way in gel and lethality in humans. It is not intended to be a 1:1 comparison…in fact, it is estimated that the elasticity of skin alone would take up about 1/3 of that gel penetration.

Have you tested those to see how much penetration you get? I’m not a big fan of wadcutters in general, but the hotter SWCJHP ammos I mentioned above at least offer expansion.

Some folks continue to pursue the dream.

Nuff said.

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...to find a BAD round for .357 even in a short barrel. Lucky Gunner shows Barnes 125 gr. Tac and 140 gr. XPB as welll as Buffalo Bore and Federal with Barnes bullets giving excellent results. As do Corbon 110 gr., Hornady 125 gr. Critical Defense FTX, Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot Short Barrel and Winchester 125 gr. PDX1 Defender. The 158 gr. Speer Gold Dots overpenetrated like crazy as did their 125 gr Gold Dots.

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The fact that finding a viable SD round in 38 remains a “dream” is a pretty damning indictment of the caliber.

‘Nuff said.

Exactly. I’m starting to think that I really just need to move up to 357 and be done with it.

I’ve shot the Remington Golden Sabers out of a scandium J and it wasn’t torturous…the Corbin DPX is also tolerable.

I had an M&P 340 a few years ago (traded it in for my Kimber K6s)…I think it’s time to pick up another one.

The shame of it is that I’ve got a really nice SW 12-2 that is probably just going to sit in a safe now.

...that has been opened umpteen times before, the 'FBI penetration standard' is for shooting from all angles, such as a shot from the side through an arm. That isn't what I would expect in an SD situation. Therefore I don't buy into everything that's said along those lines. To me pretty good is good enough.

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"Viable" is a word open to broad interpretation.

The development of magnum handgun ammunition is an ongoing story of slow-burning propellant powders that, by nature of the materials, require longer barrels to achieve the top performance levels. Those heavy charges typically result in far greater recoil, and the lighter handguns transfer much more of that force to the shooter.

Published testing utilizing ballistic gelatin is a useful method for comparisons between loads against each other or against an established metric. Such testing is not a direct indicator of actual performance in other target media.

I have owned and used a S&W Model 37 Airweight Chief Special .38 Spl. with nominal 2" barrel for over 40 years. About 15 oz. empty weight. I have also carried a 2.5" Model 19 .357 revolver for many years. About double the weight of the 37. The 37 is decidedly painful using standard pressure .38 Spl. ammo for extended range sessions, and recoil recovery for follow-up shots is a challenge. The Model 19 is even more painful and difficult to control when using any .357 ammo type.

I stick with standard-pressure ammo in the 37 and +P ammo in the 19, and I rely upon blunt, flat-nosed, and hollow-point soft lead bullets to achieve the maximum reliable and predictable performance of these handgun types. I limit .357 ammo to steel-framed medium or large-frame revolvers with ~4" or longer barrels, and I have no planned intention of ever firing those in a populated area.

Everything is a compromise. Weight (handgun, bullet, powder charge), predictable accuracy (including follow-up shots), recoil, muzzle blast, terminal ballistic performance.

YMMV. Plenty of retired cops and old timers like me have decades of experience guiding our choices.

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...and Remington Golden Sabers seem to have both attributes.

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But it is, with currently available technology, the best method we have of determining likely performance in a defensive shooting. As I posted above, it is not a 1:1 comparison, but it does give us well-established benchmarks of what constitutes the kind of performance you'd want in a SD application.

Over 3 decades of FLEO experience here, a good portion of it as a firearms instructor/CQC instructor. And, for me, those FBI benchmarks are about as good as you can get in determining your carry options.

Not sure what you mean by that.

In my hands, in my scandium revolvers, the Remington rounds have significant kick, but certainly no more than the BB/Underwood 38+P (which BB indicates in their product description is basically loaded to the lower levels of 357).

The difference is, from the testing I've seen, is that the Golden Sabers fully expand AND penetrate to the far edges of the FBI guidelines. I mean, take a look at those gorgeous results:


357 Mag Ammo For Sale - 125 gr JHP Remington Golden Saber 357 Magnum Ammunition In Stock

I asked the same question a few years ago. Somebody pointed me toward this Federal Hydra-Shok low recoil .357.




I have settled on .38 only for J snubs. That said, this .357 might work for you. It's not too harsh.

Thanks for the suggestion. It rang a bell for some reason--probably came up on a different forum at some point, but I'd forgotten about it.

UNFORTUNATELY...I just checked, around it appears to be sold out and no longer even listed on the Federal site, while Midway lists it at "Discontinued."

Cannot recall when I purchased this ammo. It has been a few years. Discontinued? Not sure. Feel like I saw some recently at Blackstone Shooting Sports in Charlotte, NC. I'll take a look. Stop by there every couple days.

Darryl Bolke with with High Desert Cartridge Company to produce not only 32 H&R but 357 defense rounds along with a practice round. I have not personally shot any of this ammunition but I trust Darryl, Rob Garret, Mark Fricke when they speak on these topics.

High Desert Cartridge Company – Reliable Round After Round

There are some great snubby modcast on the Primary Secondary Youtube Page and they speak on many topics regarding this and one in particular, on the 357.

My j-frames are 38 special federal match wadcutters or the +p gold dot.