Hey, all. With the summer months coming shortly, I've been considering what my EDC choices will be with the lighter clothing choices (i.e. shorts with no belt, etc).

I usually carry a stainless steel 357 on most winter days, and I've grown more and more respectful of that round of late. I hate to admit that I sold off a 360pd a while back because I grew frustrated in my search for ammo that was both a) effective and b) not so powerful that follow-up shots were all but impossible.

So I'm thinking again about getting a snubbie, preferably in 357. (I've considered getting an LCR in 327 for the extra round, but I'm not a big fan of Ruger in general and would be more inclined to get another J-frame.) So I figured I'd ask you guys if you know of any 357 ammo that is suitable for a lightweight snub; I'm inclined to think that the Golden Sabers or the Corbon DPX rounds may fit the bill? Looking for any personal experience people may have with those, of if any other ammo choices may be more appropriate.

Thanks!!

p.s. And, just to preempt any such suggestion, I'm not interested in carrying 38 special. I'm just not impressed with the performance in sub-3" barrels (inadequate/inconsistent expansion with most JHP rounds, and no interest in carrying wadcutters).

Might see if you can locate any of the Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 round.

I have used it in a 640, and yes I know not the same, but the recoil wasn't any more noticeable than the .38 version.

I am also a fan of the 130gr GD's. I carry an M&P340 which is almost as light as they come and even though I reload I try to keep my loads within the same velocity range as the factory loads. Easy to shoot but after several rounds you will start to feel it.

I had a 340 I pulled from the line up because both .357 and .38 158gr would jump crimp and lock up the gun. It was with cheaper ammo. I'd go for the heavier framed (aluminum or steel) J frames.

I'd recomend that you relook the .38 SPC +p Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel Load, it was created to address effectiveness out of a short barrel. Per Speer, it's going 860 fps out of a 2 inch barrell

On the .357 side, you could try the Gold Dot 135 Short barrel load. It's listed as 990 fps out of a 2 inch barrell.

You could try the Winchester 110 gr JHPs as well.

You might take a look at Buffalo Bore. They have low recoil, low flash .357 designed for snubbies.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Unfortunately, the Gold Dot Short Barrel 357 has been unobtanium for a while.

Thanks for the response.

The Speer 38 is a perfect example of how inconsistent 38 is out of short barrels. Take a look at the gel tests by both Gun Sam and the "Discreet Defender" guy...in both tests, you had failure to expand. (I can give you links if you'd like.). It is precisely ammo like that has convinced me that 38 is just not the best choice for self defense.

Try the Winchester 110gr. JHP. It's the .357 version of the old .38 Special 110 grain +P+ "Treasury Load". It's very controllable. My Python snubby loves it.

The CorBon I mentioned is, in essence, the exact duplicate of one of those BB ammos:

BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE 357 Mag Low Flash-Short Barrel Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

My only concern is that what BB considers "low recoil" is what most would consider "terribly punishing."

Thanks. You're the second person to mention it, so I took a look at a couple of gel tests on the round. Unfortunately, the round gets TERRIBLE penetration, which is strange for a 357 load. Based on what I'm seeing, I just wouldn't be confident with it.

Did they use the proper test protocol and Gel? Most of the youtubers I've seen don't test properly. If the gel is clear and there is no BB in it, it's not valid. The FBI actually found that a 10% variation in the gelatin can greatly skew the results. They did alot of gun fight analysis and autopsy work to come up with the test protocols. The agencies that helped design and use the round have not had significant issues. You can FOIA the FBI firearms division or NYPD for legitimate tests.

you might be better off looking at what rounds are available to you and then finding legit tests. If you can't source sufficient quantities of .357 that meet your needs, you might want to look a compact semi auto.

They used Clear Ballistic gel (as I do when I do my own testing, as it is temperature stable and thus easy to handle). And, yes, it is not identical to the FBI medium…which, if anything, is far LESS forgiving to ammo. So those tests—which showed penetration at just at or below the minimum depths for the FBI protocols, would have performed far WORSE.

I haven’t checked in a while, but last I looked the FBI (or other agencies) have never approved the “light recoil” or “short barrel” versions of common rounds.

Do a FOIA or request the data via agency channels. I was surprised at the amount of info they can provide.

Most agencies moved away from short barrel revolvers before the short barrel loads became prominent. I don't recall the FBI authorizing many revolver rounds after they they switched to semi-autos.

My agency (DHS) and many others never abandoned revolvers as backup weapons, however (typically purchased by the individual agent vs being issued by Uncle Sam), which is why the approved ammo list was always kept up-to-date.

Unlike cd228 (post #4) I've never had an issue with rounds in my M&P340 jumping crimp. However, I do reload my own so that may have something to do with it. Actually, in the more than ten years I've carried and fired this gun I've never had one jump crimp.

Why not a hot +P+ .38 Special

And remember, the round that encourages you to practice the most will be the most effective should you ever need it, especially for follow-up shots.

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See my comments above. I've never seen one that performs consistently in gel tests out of short-barrel revolvers.

I, no doubt, could be missing one (or more), but all my searching has only yielded disappointment so far.

So I went through my book shelf to try and find some more info for you. Grant Cunningham in his book on defensive revolvers recommends against the .357, but says of the .357 rounds that the 135 GDHP is the way to go. He did recomend 135-158 for .38 +P specifying the GDHP and the Lead Semi Wad Cutter.

Ed Lovette likes the .357, he mentions the 110JHP and showed a picture of the Cor Bon round. He also liked the MAGSAFE rounds and claimed his snubnose where filled with MAGSAFE PMAX.

Cirillo mentions the 125 gr in .357, but he didn't talk about the .357 alot.

You could also reach out to Daryl Bolke, I've corresponded with him, he is very knowledgeable and easy to talk to. The P&S crew (Matt Landfair) have been talking alot about revolvers lately too.

I thought Dr Roberts had written something about revovlver cartridges but I couldn't find it. He's usually pretty good and he has been tied in with alot of organizations.

Honestly though, if you have a list of authorized off duty rounds, I'd start there. You could also contact the vendors. The ATK LE website has data for the older cartridges (not the short barrel) but they might have info on the newer stuff upon request.

One round was Magtech and the other was armscor. Neither had a noticeable crimp and both where made during the ammo shortage. Neither where defensive loads. Both of the rounds where in the fifth chamber.

When I hand load .357 I like a nice roll crimp into a bullet with a crimping groove.

Crimp jump is a known issue for the 340s, the scandium cylinder models 340 PD used to be marked 125gr and above. (Which is why I was suprised when it happened with 158s).

Thanks for all that! Much appreciated.

You mentioned the .327Magnum as well. Check out the new Lipsey's 432UC/632UC in .327 HR Magnum. Low recoil, excellent penetration and six rds. I just got one and think it is probably one of the best configured snubbies of all time. You can also get it in .38sp. I had and carried an M&P 340. I ended up selling it off because it was not much fun to shoot. I carried .38sp. short barrel gold dots in it as I do in my 649-2. I did fire a very few .357's out of it just to see the difference. It is sort of a toss up as to which end of the gun you would rather be on when it goes off!

Haha!! Yeah...the first time I fired my 360pd with full-power 357 I thought I'd bent the space-time continuum!

I actually have a 331 Ti (old school J-frame 32 HR mag revolver). Carrying it as I type. It's my revolver for around the house, but I rarely carry it when I'm out and about. Just can't quite seem to gather enough confidence in it to take it anywhere. I tested a few rounds through it; the best performer was the DoubleTap copper round...full expansion and 13" penetration (testing in Clear Ballistic gel, which would equate to a bit below FBI threshold if done in their testing medium). So, yes, decent performance...but not great. You are correct, though...it really is a joy to shoot, and the 32 Long are even more pleasant.

Maybe I'm just too picky.....

No worries Brother! You raised an interesting conundrum. The 110 treasury load and the 135 NYPD load (Cunningham mentioned it in his book) failing to perform in your gel tests had/has me scratching my head, given both loads reputations.

For chuckles and grins, I cracked open Marshall's book street stoppers, he actually liked most of the .357 offerings, particularly the 125gr FED and Remington JHPs . But he didn't break out the short barrel guns and his research predated the short barrel rounds. He did break the .38 data into 2inch and 4 inch. He like 158gr Lead Hollow Point +Ps.

If you like the clear gel (I obviously am prejudiced against it), Lucky gunner did a bunch of multiple shot 2" and 4" tests and hung them on their website. Interestingly enough their data shows inconsistency between the .38 special shots, which might mirror your experience.

All very interesting.....but I'll stick to .38 Specials in my M649 and be very comfortable with that decision.

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Come and take it!!

I used my issued .38 on the street three times and it always did the job. First, 158 grain lead round nose standard pressure, next 158 grain lead round nose high velocity & last 158 grain +P hollow point (FBI round). Maybe luck was on my side. In retirement my EDC is a no-lock 340PD loaded w/Remington 110 grain +P semi-jacketed hollow points.

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I’ve read Marshall’s book has been largely discredited…can’t remember where I saw that…but you don’t see it quoted anymore. I don’t know if the methodology was the issue but may have been.

It’s always possible someone wanted to push their own conclusions so had to discredit Marshall.

357 Magnum - Liberty Ammunition

When you balance out the pros and cons of the mighty Magnum why not get specific. The number one concern for me is over penetration. I want to kill the rat, just not the one behind the refrigerator.....of the neighbor's house. This is a plus if you're shooting through car bodies, like a lawman.

The next notable is the shock or knockdown potential. But a 50gr. projectile impacting at 2100ft/sec. The bullet blows up on impact.

Ok, it's a theory that a lot of folks are betting their lives on. A lightweight hollow point moving at rifle like velocity. All of the energy dumped in the first inches after impact.

My next thing is that .357mag through an alloy J frame is flinch inducing. The very few times I tried it, maybe one or two rounds per session.

Having a nice K frame snub is a world difference in comfort and accuracy. But they are boat anchor heavy.

I looked around and found a Model 386 Night Guard. It's an L Frame and it's 7 rounds. This model has the steel cylinder which scales in at 24.5oz. It's both comfortable and accurate.

Marshall was discredited when some of the agencies he claimed to have pulled data from publicly stated that they had not. I believe one even said that Marshall made up a shooting that he claimed happened in their jurisdiction.

A very prominent FBI Agent, Urey Patrick , in his book Defense of Others took exception to Marshall's methodology. While not citing Marshall he quoted Marshall's methodology almost verbatim and criticized it.

It's unfortunate, If you look into Marshall's history he worked with the FBI's Firearms Division, I've got a report some where in my files with his signature and several other prominent authorities that I got from the FBI via the Defense Technology Info Center. He had also been a very active police officer.

While I wouldn't bet my life on his numbers, I own two of his books. They do have interesting info on the history of the Hydroshock round and various other studies and tests.

Corbin DPX is great if you can find it. Barnes makes the same load but the recoil is brutal.

Underwood Ammo makes a monolithic bullet that seems to all the rage lately. Xtreme Penetrator.

140 grains. 1550 fps at the muzzle. 747 foot pounds at the muzzle.

Ouch.

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That's some good work there. Where you packing a 4" K frame? Who was the maker on the High Velocity round? I haven't run across those before.

Twice it was a 4” and once a Colt Detective Spl. snub (I was assigned to the Robbery Squad as a Detective). As to the High Velocity it was 1974 and I can’t recall.

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LEO (Ret.)

Or .38+p 158 gr Buffalo Bore, SWC lead hollow point, gas check. 1000+ fps out of 1 7/8" snubs (No fun to shoot!). Yes, beats some 357s out of 2" bbls. Im getting old so may swap to 7-800 fps wadcutters.
Smiles, Mike

I just haven't seen over-penetration in good JHP ammos with 357.

I've seen a lot of videos where the BB exhibits crazy fluctuations in performance. Lots of examples of gigantic mushrooming expansion and perfect penetration, but also many where the round basically disintegrates and the base over penetrates significantly.

Not to mention that the round hurts more than many 357 rounds!!

Thanks for sharing that. Definitely Old School Cool.

I would suggest Federal 154gr HST or Remington 125gr Golden Sabres.

Have you shot the HST out of a lightweight revolver? Recoil?

And I agree with you about the Golden Sabres...very, very mild out of my SS revolver (just wondering how they'd do in an alloy J-frame).

Yes I have - quite a few. Recoil is substantially more with the HST’s, but you are firing a full power 357 magnums out of a light-weight revolver. Both rounds were very impressive in my tests.

.357M has been my favorite pistol cartridge since 1965 and I have never thought it was made to shoot in light weight pistols. A 2 1/2 M19 is the smallest gun I shoot with a full house load and I shoot very, very few. Larry

I've seen several tests of the Golden Sabers, and they seem to offer a near ideal combination of expansion and penetration. I'll have to check on some of the HST results.

When I first attended FLETC the subject of over-penetration was discussed. The instructor’s opinion was that since most shots fired by police missed their target…over-penetration in the target was a non-issue. He felt the emphasis had to be on hitting the target…not missing it.

There are many departments have claimed that Marshall and Sanow grossly misrepresented the information they provided, or that shootings that Marshall and Sanow attributed to their department never took place.

Further, Marhsall and Sanow exclude all situations where one shot failed to stop a criminal and additional rounds needed to be fired.

Successes are meaningless unless you factor in failures. And Marshall & Sanow's numbers do not factor in situations when one shot was not enough, therefore they are meaningless.

My experience with my Model 640-1 has been that full power 357 Magnum ammo produces significant flash, a whole lot of blast, and tends to bite the hand that is feeding it. I'm pretty sure that I don't want to use full power 357 Magnum ammo in a lightweight compact revolver. I find that 38 Special +P is much less ferocious to shoot and I am faster with follow up shots. NYPD had good results with the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot +P load and ballistic gel testing suggests the Remington 125 grain Golden Saber +P load would be effective.

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At least Federal and Remington made such loads.

I have a box of ~1977 production Remington .38 Special 158 gr LRN +P. In the same range session out of a 1942 6" Colt OP, it's average velocity was within 3 fps of ~2007 production Remington .38 Special 158 gr LSWCHP +P.

So much for watering down...

Another vote for the Gold Dot 135 SB 357. Problem is finding it. I have several 50 rd boxes of the 38+p version and 44 spl stashed away. That said, Hornady Critical Defense or similar would be my second choice.

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Winchester silver tips have great expansion. I no longer carry 357 for a variety of reasons, but I tested just about every 357 defensive round I could get my hands on and the clear winner was the silvertips which outperformed everything, including Gold Dots in terms of expansion.

OP, these are the projectiles recovered from my short barrel tests: 357 Magnum 154gr HST on the left, 357 Magnum 125gr Golden Saber on the right - both fired out a Ruger LCR with a 1.875” barrel. Fired through 4 layers of BDU trouser fabric into water jugs from 5 yards. The HST dented the back of the 5th jug, the GS dented the back of the 4th jug.

CD295BE3-41D4-4061-A6CA-60B17981D9C4.jpg

Best of luck on your decision.

For a snubby are you thinking K Frame or J Frame size?

357 snubby is better served with 38 +P just my LEO perspective.

I think any small frame revolver is better served with .38 Special rather than .357. Just because a gun can chamber the round doesn't mean its a good idea.