I think this says it all.

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Concealed carryOpen Carry.jpg (20.8 KB, 206 views)

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Bill

"Concealed" is still easily recognized as something to keep clear of... not really concealed at all...

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

I'm as pro-gun as they come but some folks I see open carrying look like they don't have a clue and don't get me started on those $9 nylon holsters that flop around with a velcro strap over the tang!

Yeah I wondered after I posted...

I work with different populations and have to stay current on the current terms THIS year.

I sometimes get "corrected" even though I THINK I'm using the term that we are told to use, or that even CAME FROM that population or their advocates. Until another year rolls by...

on the current terms THIS MORNING.

Concealed. My looks speak for themselves. People avoid me. I'd rather they be surprised if the need arose to pull my piece.

I love that Big Dave mentioned the nylon holsters. Oh buddy, you see it every day here in the place I'm in, just going shopping. They walk around with their chest often puffed out like they're special.

So, you dropped $500 + on a gun and couldn't afford a "decent" holster afterwards? Notably, this is often seen at Walmart. Probably where they bought the holster in sporting goods... God help us.

Also, life has gotten far too PC...

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Go ahead... make my day.

One of the biggest components of my long and illustrious Security "Career" was all the animals that I ran into while I was out doing my rounds. Bears, bobcats, coyotes, foxes, one MountainLion, elk, skunks and porcupines.

True story bro, stand in front of a porcupine and it will walk right over your feet like you're not there. I've never known a porcupine to be even mildly aggressive.

Skunks, in addition to having very distinct markings that everybody knows what they mean(AKA Open Carrying), I'm not sure if "aggressive" is the right word but they don't back down an inch.

I think skunks should be the open carriers in this anology

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Retired Career Security Guard

Back in the day (the 70's), one would just go to the local ER and for 45 dollars you got a short arm inspection and a shot of penicillin and your parents would never know. Or so I've been told....

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Forum consigliere

The people on stupid looking motorcycles are known as “Scootards”. (I should know, I’ve been one!

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Uvidíme se později, aligátore.

If I had a $9 holster and (or) a plastic pistol I would CC. Larry

Wow. Another comedian.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

The only person that needs to know I'm carrying is ME. My wife, local LE, and close friends know, and that I would back them up anyway possible. A bad guy does not need to be forewarned. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

I was in Meijers a few years ago when the open carry argument was going hot and heavy when I see these two guys in their late 20s standing there with some big irons on their hips. I could tell they weren't cops, they looked like fish out of water. They were there to show that they know the law and can OC. All they were doing was causing the soccer moms to hustle their children away from the area.
I walked up behind them and asked rather loudly "Hey, what's going on?" They were both startled as they were not even aware that I had got within a few feet of them and didn't know what to say. I then told them that I could have had their guns before they even knew it.
Not a word. They left and haven't been seen since.

Note. Hard core criminal/prisoners practice gun stripping.

I have nothing against open carry (OC) but it’s not for me. Everyone I’ve seen who is OCing usually fit the description noted by others here and I steer clear of them. While OC is legal where I live it is unusual enough to draw unwanted LE attention from people calling the cops demanding that LEOs “do something”. Preferring to be the Gray Man I’ll keep things in a pocket holster and hope I’ll never need it.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I think that open carry is location dependent. I live in Apex, NC, near Raleigh and Cary. If someone open carries here and is seen the police will be called and "Karen" would have a panic attack while dialing 911.

I was raised in a very rural county in North central NC and still have a farm there. If someone is seen open carrying there virtually no one pays any attention to it, particularly if its hunting season. If someone called the Sheriff's Office there about an open carrier, the telecommunicator would just laugh at them.

I've been in a restaurant near the farm when hunting and seen more than half the patrons open carrying. Several times when many were open carrying there were State Troopers and Sheriff's Deputies eating in the restaurant. They paid no attention to the armed patrons and only spoke to them if they knew them, usually asking if they had any luck hunting. AND by the way, the restaurant has on-premise alcohol permits, "oh the horror."


I have been a sworn LEO for more than 46 years. For over 30, I was a full time state agent who worked in plain clothes. Depending on where we were, sometimes we open carried, but usually with a visible badge. If we were in a large city, then we always covered our weapon. As I said above, it was a location dependent issue.

The issue is that some people open carry to try to provoke people into saying something. They do it in a place or in a manner to intentionally be seen and try to provoke controversy. Those people, I have no use for.

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Bill

I just don't see the point in open carrying. For bad guys, you become the first person they try to disarm so that they can get a gun. For the straights, it just freaks them out. I prefer to go everywhere, and I mean everywhere, armed. And that means staying concealed. People only need to know I'm armed when the material hits the fan.

It is illegal to generally open carry in the state of Florida. We're suing the state to change that.





















Gun Owners of America fights Florida'''s ban on carrying firearms openly: '''Blatant infringement''' | Fox News

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

I never open carry. I conceal carry, always everywhere when legal. I would feel like I was in the fishbowl. There is no reason this fat old man needs to walk around with a gun visible. Between possibly banging it on everything you walk by, to being a target for any punks trying to make you look stupid. Then there is scaring the heck out of people that can’t understand why anyone would carry a gun. ALWAYS CARRY, NEVER TELL !

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Two Handguns every day

You've got to pick your battles. This one with Florida isn't it. GOA, of which I'm a member, has better things to do with its money than fight a state that's generally friendly to the 2A. Better to spend that money fighting the blue states banning semi-autos and the stupid magazine capacity limitations.

We're fighting those too. I'm the FL State Director. Do you want me to just let Floridians continue to have their rights violated? Or do you want me to do my job? We fight across the country, not just a few places. Floridians' 2A rights are just as important as those in New York and Illinois. Again, we're fighting there too.

And Florida isn't 2A friendly. Legally speaking, there is no right to carry. Only listed exemptions which are only an affirmative defense. You can be following the law and still be arrested in Florida. Which exactly is why we're suing because it has happened.

Floridians 18 and up should have the legal choice in how they want to carry. Florida doesn't do that. It is an under-21 carry ban and an open-carry ban. And we're going to fix that issue.

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

I want the national GOA to use its (meaning my) money wisely. Fighting Florida isn't it. Do I want you to "do your job"? No, if it's wasting GOA money, which your suit is.

Thanks for sharing that you think restoring the rights of millions of Americans in FL isn't up to your cup of tea.

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

So how often do you bang your gun on everything you walk by?
You don't honestly believe a tee shirt prevents this do you?

There are about half a dozen OCers that have had their guns taken from them, guess what, just as many CCers have lost their guns. Again you don't think a tee shirt prevents theft do you?
Do an internet search " concealed carrier loses gun" or has gun grabbed.

Why OC,
hmmmmm its faster to draw.
Those with shoulder/elbow injuries have a hard time moving the magical tee shirt.
The conversations you have with people.
I've switched about a dozen anti gun people to daily carriers by tucking my shirt in, which allows them to ask questions.

If you don't want to OC, then don't but please stop parroting untrue statements.

I started OCing because cops were harassing gun owners. After a decade of educating them I now mostly CC. A group in Michigan had attorneys and filed lawsuits for us then after winning we were able to teach the cops what the laws actually say. You don't hear much about cops harassing gun owners here these days, so it worked.

I'm pretty sure I'm using English, and I know that I didn't use those words. If you think there are unlimited resources, then go for it. But you have to be honest and acknowledge that there aren't. So again, you pick the battles where you can do the most good. Fighting for open carry isn't one of them, in a state that has permitless concealed carry.

Amendment XIV: Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Under the 14th Amendment, the State of Florida has violated the rights of Floridians due to the passage of legislation that restricts their rights to keep and bear arms. Laws that were specifically passed with the purpose of restricting a certain class of people of their right to keep and bear arms. Laws to the point that the State Supreme Court admitted in 1941 that the laws were drafted in a manner to disarm certain classes of people.

"I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps.

The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied.

We have no statistics available, but it is a safe guess to assume that more than 80% of the white men living in the rural sections of Florida have violated this statute.

It is also a safe guess to say that not more than 5% of the men in Florida who own pistols and repeating rifles have ever applied to the Board of County Commissioners for a permit to have the same in their possession and there has never been, within my knowledge, any effort to enforce the provisions of this statute as to white people, because it has been generally conceded to be in contravention to the Constitution and non-enforceable if contested." - Justice Buford, Waston v. Stone, 1941

The law that Justice Buford was discussing in that court opinion, is still on the books in Florida.

Under the 14th Amendment and the Bruen decision, the laws banning the carrying of arms in FL are a direct violation of the 2nd Amendment via the 14th Amendment and unconstitutional.

More so since FL law is drafted in a manner that it is illegal to carry a firearm. There are only certain exemptions in which one can carry and they're only an affirmative defense. Which means, you can be abiding by the law, and still be arrested, and the arrest would be legal.

Which has happened, multiple times in Florida.

If you actually read the declaration, you'll see what happened to Mr. John Leggitt. He was arrested on his own property for defending his daughter while exercising his 2nd Amendment rights.

But you're claiming that fighting such is a waste of time.

You're claiming that Floridians don't count.

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

YAWN


Same ol same ol

Well for OC to be the equivalent to a porcupine, the porcupines quills need to also be made out of dollar bills, crack, or gold. When most criminals see a gun open carried on someone's hip, they see a very enticing reason to attack that person.

Why can't gun owners in Florida fight for the legalization of OC AND other gun rights that are important to them (and don't concern you) simultaneously? Since you do not believe that Floridians should be fighting to legalize OC, what, in your opinion, gun rights should they be fighting that they do jot currently have and that will not be trumped by Federal law?

While I'm against OC and think those who OC in inappropriate or densely populated areas are fools, I don't think it should be mostly black/white criminal offense. If someone, for example, in rural FL wants to OC, they should be allowed to.

This is the same post that I post every time this topic comes up. The only thing that's different is that I no longer work so I no longer open carry at work.

My experience with open carry is that it causes more problems than it solves. I'm aware that 95% of people you encounter won't even notice you're armed but 5% will and of that group some percentage will immediately start think about how they can take that gun off of you.

I open carry at work when my assignment requires it. Apart from work I haven't open carried in about ten years. At work I've had one instance where two guys knew I was armed and tried to rob me. and two other instances in which someone tried to take my gun from me.

The biggest issue that I see with most people that open carry is it they are absolutely convinced that the bad guy is going to take one look at their Mighty Boomstick and go someplace else. There are people out there who are not intimidated by the fact that you're carrying a gun in the slightest.

This is not a new experience for them. You are not the first person to threaten them with violence. you're not the first person that's ever pointed a gun at them.The odds are that your very first time dealing with a violent criminal offender will be their 100th time dealing with somebody like you. They're a lot more comfortable with violence than you are. They don't have the inhibitions against using violence we do and they're not thinking about the consequences like normal people are.

I am aware that people open carry for years without incident. I open carried for years without incident until I didn't. What I am saying is it if you choose to open carry a firearm you had better have a plan for what you're going to do when somebody tries to take it off you.

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Retired Career Security Guard

You are correct, and I witnessed this firsthand. In March of this year while waiting for an order at a fast food restaurant, there was another customer who was OCing a Glock. Two masked black guys walked into the restaurant, went straight to the OC'er, put a gun to his neck, and took his gun off of him. I don't know how old the victim was or how long he has been OC'ing without an issue, but that particular day the wrong people must have spotted him walking into the restaurant and targeted him.

Apparently the moderators thought my post was offensive because other than your quote it doesn't exist anywhere. Great job of moderation.

In any event, I think we can all agree that cheap holsters are used in concealed carry much more than open carry.

I remembered this pic I posted a while back on another forum. A guy in Arbys a while back:

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Arbys Yahoo.jpg (56.0 KB, 61 views)

I disagree . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

GOA's Filed Complaint in Court against FL's Open Carry & Under-21 Carry Ban - PDF

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

I remind you respectfully of the fallacy which is called survivorship bias. Also, I notice that you are using anecdotal evidence which is something we gun people do all the time, on a range of issues.

I don't mind and I don't try to change your mind because I have watched this dead horse get beaten again and again for so long, that I believe that almost nobody will change his mind based on this thread, one way or the other.

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE
If my mind depends on stories, then I must learn ALL the other stories before I make up my mind. If there is a story of a crime being prevented because of open carry, then that cancels out the opposite story. If the story happened to me, but the opposite story happened to somebody else is that decisive?

Another consideration is that your anecdote is open to interpretation as you tell it. The OC people will say his situational awareness was off and how they always choose a seat where they can see everything etc. etc. Others will say that they will wait for the right moment when they pull out their BUG and start shooting. Liberals will say this is why nobody should even be allowed. Someone else will say at least everybody got home safe and that is all that matters.

SURVIVOR BIAS
If open carry has value, then part of that value must be in deterrence. However, the stories of successful deterrence do NOT get told. You can try to imagine that you are stopping bad guys, but how do you know? This phenomenon was discussed at length by John Lott in his wonderful book, "More Guns, Less Crime".

Victim selection criteria used by criminals is a very interesting subject. I recommend we put in some study before we conclude that open carry is a way to get targeted for crime. If you openly display anything of value like an expensive handbag from Saks Fifth Avenue, or a pair of Air Jordan tennis shoes or a handgun you could be targeted.

I you are bored with this OC thing, the most helpful site I can recommend is nononsenseselfdefense.com. If you read over there I would love to know your thoughts and/or criticisms.

Best Regards!
BrianD

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

GUN OWNER GETS HIS GUN TAKEN BY THIEF! - YouTube

We're taking Florida to court over their refusal to overturn their unconstitutional ban on open carry. Florida is one of just a few states nationwide who have a total ban on open carry. Today on Gun Owners of America's Law & Ammo, Phil details our lawsuit against the state of Florida and what this means for gun owners in the Sunshine State.

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

Good people get jammed up. That's why we're pushing for legalization in FL.

Enough is enough.

In Columbia County, a blind man with a folded seeing eye-cane in his back pocket was harassed by the Sheriff's Office because they thought he had a gun tucked into his back pocket. What was the man doing? His civic duty, he was reporting to court for jury duty. The Sheriff's Deputies originally wanted to arrest him for openly carrying a firearm. But once they realized they made a mistake, they instead charged him with disorderly conduct.

Again, what was the guy doing? Reporting to jury duty.

A blind man was arrested after an officer thought he had a gun. It was his cane. - CBS News, Nov. 10, 2022

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GOA FL Dir. & Nat. Spokesman

I think open carry, except for uniformed duty, hunting and maybe hiking, is foolish. I wouldn’t want to give someone with bad intentions an advantage.

I do believe what I said except I didn’t think about my carrying in the waist. Of course a gun would not get banged around if you carried secured. My mistake. I’m not comfortable open carrying and don’t need to advertise. You are comfortable open carrying and have done so successfully. It’s your right. Good luck to you. I hope for all gun carriers that we are always able to carry and protect ourselves. I also hope we never need to.

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Two Handguns every day

NC has open carry but it is rare to see someone carry that way unless its bear hunting season and even then its rare / I will say carry how you wish but if I see some carrying uncovered I do tend to watch them as I do not know if there someone with ill intent .

I have CC'd for 37 years going back to my florida years when it was still a may issue state and will continue with concealed carry in on my side at 3:00 .

I have put thought into it, and I have no bias. The fact still remains that people who open carry are being directly targeted and then robbed of their firearms. The fact is criminals are even attempting to and have actually robbed uniformed police officers of their firearms. The fact is that a firearm is to criminals what crack is to a crackhead, so an OCer will be displaying something that most criminals want.

Let's be logical here. The thought that drug dealers and thugs who kill each other and get into gun fights (knowing the rival gang member or drug dealer is likely armed as well) will be imitated by a middle age to old man who is opening carrying is laughable and illogical. They'll just game plan for a different way to attack you. The fact is that there are countless real world examples (not just my one anecdotal experience) of open carriers having police called on them, being charged with a crime, swatted, harrased, trespassed, and/or being robbed and even killed with their own gun. IMHO, based on the data that I have and what I do know, OC, in general, makes people a target much more so than it will act as a deterrence.

Now, I do not believe OC should be illegal. It makes sense in some limited circumstances and areas, but in general, I stand firm in my opinion that OC is less safe and makes gun owners more of a target both for criminals and those who hate guns. If I were to make a list of possible cons to OC versus cons to CC, the OC list would be much longer. I support those who want to OC responsibly and legally; however, I STILL think it's a terrible idea in most situations.

The urban myth that criminals will be, in general, deterred by the very sight of an open carrier is nonsense. Criminals certainly didn't get the memo. As I previously posted, I've seen a OCer robbed first hand just a few months ago, I've seen several cases of it meantioned on my local TV news stations in the past, and I heard of many other cases OCers being robbed when the holy war OC vs CC debate has been waged on gun forums ad nauseam over the past decade. I directly asked one of the responding officers that responded to the OC robbery I witnessed has he delt with this before, and he told me that he has on several occasions. I was accused of having multiple forms of bias because of my first-hand experience; however, my opinion about OC was the same BEFORE that experience. I used to be very vocally pro open carry, especially during the Obama years and all the firearm protests. I can link to my prior post as evidence of such. My opinion about OC changed based on facts, data, common sense, and multiple examples of OC going badly. I came to the informed conclusion that OC offers a lot more cons and risks than CC.



There's Joshua Wright. Joshua releaved a conceal carrier's handgun in a Walmart bathroom and then pointed the handgun at the victim. Wright knew the conceal carrier had a firearm because the conceal carrier inadvertently flash his conceal carry when his shirt came up in the parking lot as he was walking into the store. His gun was never recovered.


Then there's the conceal carrier who was tackled by another customer inside Wal-Mart after the other customer saw the 62 year old conceal carrier "grabbed his handgun from his car and slipped it into a hip holster underneath his coat." The Wal-Mart shopper who tackled the man was inside the store when he seen this.


I remember the below story when it was first reported. This happened in Richmond, VA. The man who had a CCW permit decided to open carry, he was targeted because of it, and test later showed he was killed with his own gun.



Another open carrier in my state of VA who was robbed for his handgun in broad daylight at 3pm in the evening.

And another one....


Here's a law abiding citizen who was open carrying his AR15. He was rob of his AR15; however, he was able to shoot at the criminals with the CONCEALED handgun that they didn't see so they didn't take it. The robbery victim shot the thug who stole his open carried AR15 with his concealed carried handgun multiple times!

Another...

Another...

Another....

Another....

Here's them trying to rob an uniformed officer of his gun.


John Correia from Active Self Defense who has knowledge of tens of thousands of incidents involving guns also parroted my opinion, which is open carried "guns are magnets for criminals."

Here's another...Two separate cases of OCers being robbed in a span of one week!

Off duty female officer releaved of her firearm:


I can post many more. There are even several other YouTube videos that I recall seeing over the years of gun grabs and armed robberies of OC that I unfortunately can not find on YouTube anymore. I could also spam this entire thread with examples of OC having the cops called on them with many being held at gun point. These to a lesser degree, there are swatting cases.

So, your position seems to be don’t carry a gun . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I've already stated that I no longer open carry and I've stated why I no longer open carry.

I also feel obligated to say that I really don't care of you choose to open carry or not but I probably won't go out in public with you if you do

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Retired Career Security Guard

The time and money is better spent in places like Chicago ?

Yeah; No.

Besides it's hot as heck here in Florida and people should be able to open carry if they choose, especially when they're out hiking.

Thanks for trying to throw Floridians under the bus.

Well Armed, thanks for the discussion!
I did not coin the term "survivorship bias". It is a real thing, and it does apply to our practice of including anecdotes as evidence in these discussions. The "bias" is not in you, it is in the evidence itself because of lacking data.

It does seem as though having a gun taken off of you while open carrying is worse than having it stolen in some other way. A friend of mine had his matching Colt SAA revolvers stolen from his house while he was at church. He wore them openly while shooting at a gun range the day before. They knew he was a pastor, so it made sense to the thieves to steal them when they knew he was out of the parsonage which was located in the same parking lot as the church.

It also seems to be worse to us when you get murdered with your own gun than any of the other ways that you can be murdered.

We cannot figure out a way to talk to all the criminals who decided not to attack someone because they saw that there was someone nearby who was prepared to stop them.

There is a thing called "jugging", where they follow you home from the bank to steal the money you just withdrew. They especially prefer to break into the car when you make another stop at a store on the way home. Regardless of this discussion I hope all will beware.

Kind Regards All!
BrianD

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

I'm the same way. I'm against gun owners who dress like G.I. Joe with tactical gear, drop leg holsters, and AR15s on their back who go walking through Walmart and the like scaring everyone half to death in the current climate. I'm against those who conceal or open carry unsafely. It all makes the rest of us look bad and provokes the majority of voters to believe the nonsense the antigunners say about us as well as not support any form of OC. Other than that, I don't care if others choose to OC or not. Just because I think it's a terrible idea doesn't mean I don't believe others should have the right to do it, where legal or permitted on private property.

It's their firearm, life, and risk, and not mine. They have to live or die by the repercussions or lack thereof, not me. I am just giving my personal opinion and perspective so that others who read the thread can be well informed and come to their own conclusions about what's best for them and their situation. My opinion used to be different as well, but it changed over time.

I do both, with open being when at the deer lease or out enjoying nature at it's finest. Concealed when in mainstream everyday life. I don't need to advertise I'm armed but that's only my simplistic opinion and actions

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Is that a gun No a lifesaver