If one purchases a brand new semi-auto handgun for self defense purposes, how many fired rounds constitute a "reasonable/normal reliabilty test" for the new weapon? Is there a mathematical answer?

I would expect to fire 50 rounds for "Break-In" and perhaps incur a few failures due to newness. Then, after a thorough cleaning, I would propose to fire another 100 rounds as a reliability test. If there were no failures (FTF or FTE), should I then feel confident as to reliability?

What do law enforcement agencies do? Do they have published standards? Do they test each new handgun they acquire?

Your comments welcomed...

If one purchases a brand new semi-auto handgun for self defense purposes, how many fired rounds constitute a "reasonable/normal reliabilty test" for the new weapon? Is there a mathematical answer?

I would expect to fire 50 rounds for "Break-In" and perhaps incur a few failures due to newness. Then, after a thorough cleaning, I would propose to fire another 100 rounds as a reliability test. If there were no failures (FTF or FTE), should I then feel confident as to reliability?

What do law enforcement agencies do? Do they have published standards? Do they test each new handgun they acquire?

Your comments welcomed...

Honestly... 500 rounds is my minimum.
Initial 200 with fmj...
Then a mix to see what it likes and shoots the best.


Jim

__________________
Big bullets leave big holes

IIRC, Wilson Combat recommends 500 rounds before even the first strip and cleaning, and Doc Roberts likewise advocates 500 with the carry/duty ammo (buy a case, use half, load/store the rest). I'd be really uncomfortable with less than 200 ball, 200 duty, and 0 failures. My duty 1911 has 4 failures with ammo not recommended for it (+P, when it was specifically set up for standard pressure 230 grain), and 1 failure with **** (Blazer) in 2000 or so rounds. No failures with appropriate ammo; that's a few types of ball, I think some SWCs, and 3 or 4 types of JHP (mostly our duty stuff, 230 grain gold dot).

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

I usually break in my guns in with 500-750 rds. of ammo. The first 500 are assorted varieties consisting of loads I intend to carry. The last 250 consist of the winner of those loads which gave total reliability and which I intend to carry.

I think it took a couple of hundred rounds before the retaining pin fell out of my first KelTec .32. I sent the gun back and KelTec replaced it.

Thanks for the responses.

I hadn't previously planned on shooting another $150 to $200 of ammo just to validate the gun's reliabiity, but I guess that is the norm.

I suppose I can benefit from the "extra practice."

As a follow-on question, how would you feel if you had one or two FTF or FTE after shooting 400 rounds? Do you start over, or what? Or just accept a 1/300 chance of failure?

I would find out why there was a FTF or FTE. Sometimes it's the ammo. Sometimes it's the way you didn't hold the gun properly. Sometimes you have to learn how to quickly clear and reload the next round.

Thinking more about this topic....

What is an acceptable "failure rate" (FTF or FTE) for a well-made, reliable, broken-in, semi-auto handgun shooting its preferred ammo. What should we expect? 1-in-100? 1-in-1,000? NONE?

I'm wondering what is reasonable, as few products are perfect.

On the other hand, being a civilian CCW, the odds are probably 1000-to-1 that I will ever have to fire it at another person in self defense. Nevertheless, if that unfortunate day does arrive, I would like to think my gun will work.

Same as a well-made, reliable revolver - depends on the application and on what YOU want. I don't accept failures that haven't been explained and apparently prevented for the future. I once sold a revolver because it had broken a firing pin twice. Couldn't figure out why, and didn't know anyone who could.

I have several autos that have never bobbled a round. I don't have any revolvers that don't work all the time. I usually carry a backup. I don't carry a spare pair of spectacles on my person, but I have shot an IPSC match w/o my spectacles, and my eyes are better now than they were then.

YOU have the info on YOUR guns. YOUR choice. Just remember that if your autos don't work, there are plenty of perfectly good used revolvers out there.

__________________
Formerly Model520Fan

What I have done and how I see it. After break in if you can pick up the pistol and fire a complete mag time and again you have your reliability. The talk of 200, 500, or 1,000 rounds before a failure to me is crazy. How many times will you need 200, 500, 1,000 rounds in a self defence situation. If it makes you feel better a box of 50 rounds without a failure every time you are at the range is proof that your pistol is reliable. Just my .02 worth.

__________________
NRA USPSA NROI IDPA ICORE

Honestly, the most critical test I've seen of reliability is to shoot it in practice until you aren't having problems, and then come shoot a few IDPA matches with it.

Even though IDPA stress is simulated, it will cause shooters to make the mistakes they would in a shooting and induce failures in their guns.

Limp wrist, fumbled reloads, can't hit under stress, and sometimes the gun is actually faulty, but the shooter has been "excusing" it mentally when shooting alone. I've also seen guns shoot OK "after they get warmed up" which is no good for a defense gun.

__________________
Science plus Art

I'm not real sure where you buy your ammo, but I don't think any of the rest of us want to shop in the same place.

200 rounds or so is a good minimum for breakin. This works for both the weapon and you. You must know the weapon. You can use generic ball ammo for this, you don't need duty type ammo for this purpose.

How much duty ammo you run through it depends upon your wallet thickness and the profile of the ammo in question. There are many bullets that have a nose profile (ogive) nearly identical to ball. There are those who argue for 200 rounds of duty ammo on top of the breakin rounds to verify reliability. If the profile is sufficiently close to ball, I figure one box may be good enough. Your money, your choice.

As to failures, it kinda depends upon the probable cause. Most feed failures are magazine related. The ball ammo should allow you to figure out what you have to do to make the weapon perform reliably. Repeated failures indicate you should try different ammo, then let someone else shoot the weapon to see if it's mechanical or you're contributing to the issue. A quality, properly lubricated semi-auto running quality ball ammo should be near 100% reliable.

The IDPA or other match is a good idea. Just don't regard it as training.

200-250 rd of the ammunition that you'll actually be using, plus at least 50rds or three complete loadings - whichever is greater - through each magazine that you plan to use. Cut corners as you choose.

After a fluff and buff, I put two hundred ball reloads through my P3AT, after which I cleaned it thoroughly. Then I ran fifty Speer Gold Dots through the gun, relubricating it after every couple of magazines or so. Whenever I have run carry ammo through the gun it is when the gun is clean. Since it passed the carry ammo test I've run several dozen Gold Dots through the gun, even limpwristing it and had no problems. When I take it shooting, after four magazines or so of range ammo that gun will get stoppages, but it never will when clean and lubed, or dirty and kept relubed. Part of the process can be learning the animal you're dealing with and how to make it tick. Since I keep my K-T meticulously clean and lubricated I know it will get me through the seven rounds I keep in it. After that it doesn't matter. I New York reload. Larger autos tend not to be so finicky.

Getting an auto running is a lot of horse ****. That's one more reason I like revolvers.

My personal standard is a minimum of 500 rounds "without any failure" that can't be directly traced to the ammo being used. It seems to have worked well for me. Not real cheap but then I like ME the "Best" of all the guys I have to stare at in the morning mirror!!!

For me, 500 rounds of ball ammo and at least 50 rounds of your carry load of choice. If possible 100 roudns of you carry load wouldn't be a bad idea.

Once again it comes down to what are you using the gun for. FBI required the 1911 contract gun to fire 5000 rounds - no failures. Springfield won the contract. The list goes on. Most of us can not afford to shoot so many rounds, but if I have even one failure at the range; I have to figure out why. 500 rounds is my absolute minimum in a semi-auto. I carry a L-frame 357, so I don't have to think about failures.

Sir, revolvers can and do fail. I've had it happen several times with Smith and Colt sixguns, as well as lesser makes. If you're not thinking about revolver failures, you might want to start.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

__________________
Wishin' don't make it so.

Ron H. is most definitely correct. I had a Diamondback break a firing pin twice. I had a near-new 547 pierce a primer and the firing pin wouldn't come back. It took a lengthened decapping tool to fix that enough just to open the cylinder.

Revolver malfunctions may be MUCH rarer than those of bottomfeeders, but they do occur.

__________________
Formerly Model520Fan

A great reason for a second gun if you can, especially if you carry a revolver. Revolver malfunctions will almost always render the gun completely useless and unclearable.

To continue this thought just a bit more...perhaps any LEO's on this board might tell us what their department does when it receives a new shipment of hanguns (presumably the same model they already issue).

Does the "armorer" fire each one as a test? Or do they just issue them to officers with a box or two of ammo? I know that many/most LEO's supposedly have minimal interest in their handguns.

Thanks for your comments.

gold40

What they SHOULD do is have each inspected and fired by the armorer/instructor staff. I have seen this advocated in professional journals. This way if there is a problem, it is found before an officer gets the gun and loses confidence. I have not seen it done this way, but I have only been in one agency which issued guns. In that one, the new guns were handed out at in-service and shot there. Several took a ferocious dump on the range when new out of the box. In one case, an academy student had one completely fail the first day he had it. The more recent issue guns worked every time, as far as I know, including once when someone cranked a round in to his leg.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

The only gun I've ever had to send back to the factory was a S&W 25-13.

There are apparently differing view points / opinions on the subject in regards to break-in expenditure/amounts of ammunition.

That said I’ve experienced magazine related problems in regards to functionality.
The absolute best semiautomatic pistol in reliability that I personally own is the S&W-4506. When first introduced there were issues with the magazines. I’ve had problems with Wilson 47D magazines in certain 1911 pistols. The pistols weren’t problematic when other manufactures magazines were employed.

If I was forced to select a pistol for immediate usage with out test firing for functionality it would be a Glock G17 or G19.

Since new weapons will go to new officers, they will fire the weapon through basic school. Roughly 1000 rounds. The armorers are available for issues and have inspected/function fired the weapons prior to issue. Our weapons are also armorer inspected/function fired once per year.

BTW, IIRC, the FBI 5000 round requirement was for parts breakage.

I'm comfortable with less for revolvers, and less for tactical tupperware. My M&P 9 mm full size has about 500 rounds through it, mostly the cheap stuff, but a few magazines (17 round magazines) of the stuff I carry in it.

I'm rather far from an expert, but I think this 500 round thing got started when people started messing with the sloppy old mil spec. 1911s and making them more target worthy. I get the impression that it took (takes?) a while to get those tuned up nice.

I suspect that one of the characteristics of the go-to weapon - Glocks now, and Model 10s of yesteryear - is reliability.

__________________
Regulate Banks, not guns

I've been able to obtain 3 really nice semi-autos this past year: A Springfield XD40, a Glock 19 and now a Glock 30. I put a couple hundred through the XD and 19 with no problems whatsoever. I carry the 19 every day. However, I fired the first 75 rounds through the 30 today and after about 35 the thing didn't completely lock up for the next round. This happened intermitently. The ammo was Wally world white box 230gr ball and Magtech 230 ball. The barrel and inside the slide looked like it had been dragged through a coal mine. I don't think I'll have a problem with even this dirty stuff for the 11 rounds of defensive fire out of a clean piece. (Both types of ammo were extremely accurate, however.)