I am about to purchase a new holster for my NIB 66-1 2 1/2" revolver. What are your thoughts on strong side vs. cross draw.

medxam

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Doc Garrett
Dead Man's Doctor

For the last several years I have been using a Galco SOB Holster as a Strong Side Draw Holster. Frankly, NOTHING belongs in the Small of your Back - especially a Holster. I now have several of this style including one for a 3 inch "J" Frame that I think works very well. I find I don't have any trouble getting to my sidearm even while seat belted into my Van. Cross Draw has several "draw backs" for just about anything other than drawing while seated in a car and 'shooting' out the window at an attacker and this is only "Good" if you are Right Handed.

The major problem is that when you draw while on the firing line you will be pointing your sidearm at everyone on that side of your body and then you have to swing the gun in a wide arc before bringing the gun to a "sudden" stop before getting onto the Target.

Lots of Ranges and LEO Agencies don't allow this type holster for the above reasons.

medxam, I have exactly the same weapon as you (well, except mine is quite a few years old). I've gone through a number of holsters in that time and am currently using a crossdraw that Tucker Gun Leather in Texas made up for me. I say "made up" because it's not the one shown on his website.

When my order finally came up (some seven months after initially placing it), his rep called me to find out exactly what I was looking for. He ended up making me a crossdraw in a pancake design that I'm very pleased with. It's comfortable to wear (including seated in a vehicle), conceals reasonably well and draws quickly.

I guess it all boils down to what's comfortable for YOU?

I have tried to carry cross draw but don't find it comfortable.I am a lefty so i like to carry strong hand at about the 8:00 position.I bought this holster at www.packinheatleather.com

KKG. A question. I have a model 60-15 3" S&W. I am looking for a good concealment holster that is safe. I recently saw one that had a button or trigger that released the firearm but it was for an automatic. The Galco SOB is that the model of a plain leather and do you know the name of the trigger release? Thank you very much in advance.

The only time I really like to carry in a crossdraw is when I'm driving on a long trip. Otherwise, it has just always looked to me that an aggressor standing in front of me would have a headstart on snatching my gun with it oriented butt-towards him.

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Pisgah

Can't help you with this. I don't use or recommend even a simple "Thumb Break" on a concealed holster. A well fitted and proper suede lining is more than enough to hold the gun in place. If you need more "retention" most of these holsters can be fitted with a tension screw if they aren't already.

Yep, we demonstrate this to new agents all the time. If they're dedicated to surveillance duties, it may be an option since they'll spend a lot of time seated in a car, but even better than that we suggest getting one of the holsters that you can mount around the center console (for righties)....get in the car, put the gun in that holster and return it when you get out.

The other bad thing about cross draw when you're not seated is that if you go to draw the gun your arm is in a naturally weak position. You might get your hand on the gun, but I can grab your gun arm and hold it pressed into your body and you won't have the strength to overpower me....I can push harder than you can pull your arm away from your body. Now you're tied up with your dominant hand/arm pinned to you and you're effectively a one-armed man in a fight!

Further, if a bad guy gets their hands on you and grabs your arms/hands you may not even be able to get your hand to the gun, much less draw it. You'll have to go to plan B at that point.

From strong side you can usually pull your arm up enough to clear the holster, or drop your center of gravity and break free enough to get the gun out and send lead towards the bad guy.

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USPSA TY23298

For this particular S&W model 60 3" .357 mag which holster do you recommend. Again thank you

I have one of the earlier version of that same gun and use the Galco SOB as suggested originally - in the Strong Side position, just behind the body center line. The Holster/Gun ride high and can still provide a very fast "Presentation" toward the target. I'll have to get some more photos of this arrangement together.

I had some showing both a Glock 27 and the 3 inch Model 60 using this arrangement but it looks like I did some clean up and got rid of them. I'll Post some over the weekend.

Biggs, how does your j-frame fit? I had one for my 6906 and was thinking of one for my SP101 but the website says it's for Colt, Ruger and S&W...I usally buy a holster made just for one gun..I know those models are close but a Colt and the SP are bigger than a j-frame....

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

It fits tight and rides close to my body.The holster you see fits a colt detective special.Actually it was alittle hard at first to snap closed but after i left the gun in the holster over night,it went right in and closed every time.BTW my Rossi m677 was almost identical to the colt d/s 2" which will also the Rossi 461/462,and the S&W model 60.

I just looked and you are right,the one that fits your gun will be the Galco Speed master for $59.96.

When carrying concealed I always have the gun covered with a shirt or suit coat and much prefer cross draw. I can reach inside a button front shirt or suit coat and be sure of comming out with only the gun. With the gun on the strong side I must first get the shirt or coat tail out of the way and then go for the gun while hoping that I don't come up with a handfull of coat tail with the gun.

I have qualified many times with the cross draw and pointing the gun in unacceptable directions was never a problem. The gun comes out of the holster, muzzel down and is rotated to the front as it is brought to bear.

Possibly it is only my phobia, but the possibility of comming up with a handfull of coat tail or shirt tail when I need a gun is eliminated with the cross draw. Also fighting the coat tail while sitting in a car, is especially problematic.

Second to the cross draw was the shoulder holster, which was just a few inches higher than the cross draw. Mine were carried vertically as they were a little large for horizontal carry.

Horseback is where the crossdraw shines. Elsewhere, it is not necessary.

WILDPIG

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I ain't from around here.

Our State Police and the Washington Highway Patrol used to wear Crossdraw duty holsters, one was a Hoyt (not the breakfront) and the other was a Bucheimer.

Our (Idaho) State Police had to constantly be aware of where the weapon and person of interest were. Many foiled attempts at grabbing the weapon was due to the Trooper keeping his weak hand on the gun, or resting the weak side forearm on the weapon.

I was a Sheriff's Deputy for 20 years and transported prisoners all over the west in Patrol cars. Those were the days, NOT!!!

I wore a primary sidearm in a horizontal shoulder holster and a secondary (Colt DS) in an ankle holster.

The fastest to draw from in a car was the ankle holster.

Crossdraws are an invitation to a gun grab.

My advice to a holste for you is: Galco Speemaster which I carry a 3" L frame in and love it. Or a DeSantis Model Speed Scabbard.

Good luck.

Here are the photos of the Galco SOB with a Glock 27:



Here are the images a Ross SOB with a Model 60-4(3 inch barrel and Target Sights):



The 3 inch "J" Frame is about the Maximum size and barrel length for this style of carry. I would go for a "K" Frame with a 2-1/2 or 3 inch barrel but at my age(a fair way over the Hill to some) and overall Health - sever Arthritis - I am looking for lighter weight guns for 'carry' purposes. I like the Glock well enough that I 'carry' two of them to "Speed-up" my reload time.

For those who spend a lot of time behind the wheel, I can recommend Ken Null's "Viper" holster for J-frame Smiths. It rides horizontal just to the weak side of the buckle on whatever belt is being worn.

WSP(Washington State Police) carried and used Cross Draw Holsters for many Years when they carried revolvers.

The primary reason for this was because they frequently transported people - including prisoners - in the front seat of their Patrol Vehicles, as this was considered 'safer' than having someone sit behind you. And the Cross Draw Holster put the gun as far away from the "Passenger" as possible in case they turned 'Hostile' for some reason.

All Troopers were required to carry their sidearm on the left side of their body. I believe that they were also required to "Shoot and Qualify" right handed even if they were 'naturally' left handed. It did discourage "South Paws" from applying. They also had a 'minimum height' Requirement that I believe was 6 foot 2 inches and of course, females were not allowed to be hired as Troopers during those days.

This was before the days of having "Cages" in the back seat which now give the Troopers protection. The Cages themselves have evolved from a simple piece of wire mesh welded to the "upper part" of the Roll Bar. The draw back to these early "Cages" was that a man with a knife or sharp rod could still "stick" the Trooper through the seat and of course, the wire mesh also allowed prisoners to also do such things as "Spit" or throw other things at the Troopers.

Many Departments used "other" methods for transports in those days which included "Ring Bolts" welded to the Floor in the back seat. Prisoners would be 'locked' to these bolts via chains of by simply running the hand cuff chain through the bolt. Of course, this made for something of a less than comfortable ride for the Prisoner. It took many years for the WSP "Policy" to change to "require" that prisoners be hand cuffed with their hands behind their backs.

To the best of my knowledge WSP retained the use of Cross Draw Holsters until they began "issuing" Automatics which I think was some time in the '90s.

"it has just always looked to me that an aggressor standing in front of me would have a headstart on snatching my gun with it oriented butt-towards him."
If you are concealed, the BG will go after your SS....What makes the cross-draw so effective and faster than SS (you don't have to sweep your outer garment) according to my former mentor, Ray Chapman and proven by Todd Jarrett while timing various modes of CC.
Anyway, SS didn't work for me; not comfortable for my body build.

One other thing about crossdraw that I didn't like was and or is: If you're carrying concealed the drape of your jacket or covering garment gave away the fact that you are carrying, so easily.

Tactically, you have a great advantage, namely "surprise" by keeping your weapon hidden. Also body types play an important role in what type of holster is worn. People with large chests or large abdomens have a difficult time with crossdraw. Finally, the best place to carry a gun if you really need it is in your hand. Everything else is a compromise.

Wherever you decide to carry it make that place a habit and practice with that holster and position until it is second nature to you.

One night early in my law enforcement career me and my partner responded to a local grocery store where a call had gone out that an armed robbery was taking place. As we exited the patrol vehicle 25 yds from the storefront two perps came out of the front door. One with a revolver in his hand and the other with a handful of cash. Me and my partner yelled halt only to have them turn and disappear around the corner of the store away from us.

I drew my revolver and gave chase as did my partner who was driving an closer to the two. I remember watching my partner who had just switched from a swivel strong side to a Hoyt crossdraw for his issue 4" Python. Running ahead of me down the alley slapping his right leg repeatedly trying to find his duty weapon.

Ultimately he remembered it was on his weak or left side in a high ride crossdraw, pulled the gun and we made the arrest, as the guy with the gun gave up, thank God or my partner or both of us could have been shot. I know today the guy with the gun would have been handled different, but in 1970 you didn't shoot unless the gun was pointed at you.

So practice with what you choose, practice a lot, until it is natural for you.

Shoulder holster are usually considered to be crossdraw, although I can easily access my gun with the weak hand if necessary, as with most crossdraw belt hosters. This might give them a little advantage over some strongside carries, as reaching the far side on those with the weak hand is ALMOST impossible.

That's a good point when talk centers around the use of only one-hand.
"Quote:One other thing about crossdraw that I didn't like was and or is: If you're carrying concealed the drape of your jacket or covering garment gave away the fact that you are carrying, so easily."Quote
Not sure why you'd say that...It's really no different from either side as far as printing goes. I leave my outer sports'coat/jacket opened, you wouldn't know which side the CC is on. Sliding your hand across your midsection is extremely fast & reliable for a good grasp. Personally, probably because of my age, I don't find it natural on SS carry to flip aside the garment and cock the elbow/shoulder for a good grasp even with a proper holster cant.

I consider Shoulder Holster and Cross Draw to be very different "Carry" methods since few Cross Draw Holster place the sidearm anywhere near to Center Line of the body which is VERY common for most Shoulder Holsters.

Granted the old style Cross Draw Holsters used by the WSP were very much located on the Center Line of the left side of the Body but that "style" of Cross Draw is not often seen any longer. The more common placement, currently, is much closer to the mid line or 'belt buckle' on the "Off Side". This positioning does make for much easier to access the sidearm when in a seated position. It does place the sidearm in a much more "accessible to the Bad Guys" position than most folks are comfortable with - except while the individual is behind the wheel of a car.

Many Agencies don't allow the use of this type of Holster because of this "more accessible to the Bad Guys" issue.

Same here.

I carry my 66 2.5" strong side. What I will be carrying tomorrow is below...

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Srigs

Ah, the "Sunday-go-to-meetings" rig! Very nice!

I'd say that what you've found about fliping garments, cocking elbows etc is more about training and selection than which method is "better". There isn't nearly enough true instruction/information out there about the different methods to actually draw the weapon when concealed and how the garments factor into the technique.

Assuming you're wearing a jacket like the one in the picture, you don't flip it aside at all....that was the old TV method because it looks dramatic. Form a hook shape with your right hand, hook the jacket somewhere around the level of your pecs, pull down and naturally towards the gun....this is the way your hand normally moves when you let it relax towards your side. When you do this the jacket will naturally be drawn back behind the gun and your hand will be right at the gun ready to grip it. No cocking of the shoulder, no monkey motion, and it's as close to foolproof as you'll find.

Many people have learned that the "FBI" cant with the butt of the gun dramatically forward on the strong side is actually a lousy position. It requires that you break your wrist angle and raise your shoulder to get a grip on the gun. A straight drop, or very slight forward cant works better for most people and dovetails nicely with the method described above to clear the garment.

Comparing draw times between strong side like what I describe and cross draw like your picture, almost everyone is faster strong side if they have their gear setup for it and have learned the proper method. I haven't timed cross draw to compare, but I might now that I'm thinking about it.

While the draw time is not a huge deal, there are other factors at play. If you have to cross your body your arm is in a weak position and if you wind up in a scuffle, you face two problems. One, if you get your hand on the gun, it might be pinned there. Two, if someone gets their hands on you before you get your hand on the gun, you might not be able to get your hand across your body to get to it....not nearly as likely with strong side.

One additional drawback to cross draw is that it's a lot harder to inconspicuously draw the weapon if the need arises....slip it out and put your hand slightly behind you where it's not visible. It also doesn't allow you the option of feigning compliance (imaging a mugging where they ask for your wallet) when you're actually going for your gun....an extreme situation, but possible.

The biggest issue I have with cross draw is that the gun isn't pointed at the bad guy until very late in the draw. The gun is still moving laterally from left to right (for a righty) until the very last second. It's very easy to stop short or overswing the target and cause wide misses. In a traditional draw you can fire almost as soon as you clear leather and at any point in between clearing leather to the final position with the gun fully indexed on the target. Most "misses" from these positions will be slightly higher or lower than you'd like, but they'll still often be on target...better than a miss left or right that's completely off target.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. I'm sure there are some body types that just won't work with strong side, but from your pic that doesn't appear to be the case. We have some tiny female agents that struggle with it, and folks that are really overweight might have issues, but pretty much everyone else is best served, in general, by SS. A little technique/practice and the right holster and SS will ususally work for anyone and have less drawbacks than other methods.

When I've had to do extensive surveillance I often used a Galco MOB (middle of back) holster as a cross draw rig. I'd have my primary weaon SS, my backup in an ankle rig, and I'd take my spare and put it in the MOB and clip it on my belt cross draw stle. If I had to get out of the car I'd take off the MOB and I'd be set like I normally carry...just no one perfect setup for everything and why I have a drawer full of holsters! R,

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USPSA TY23298

It's not quite that easy with outer garments. They do not pull up naturally. Even M.Ayoob has pointed out the need of "flipping" the outer jacket when carrying SS. No, it's not Hollywood.
I noticed your video on firing with or w/o chambering bullet. On the range, no problem; but CC I don't Open Carry. As you mentioned, you might try a video wearing an outer garment from both sides and see how you do. You might be surprised. As far as the gun sweep and being off target; just need to practice, that's all.

I think you might have missed a few things and I may have not explained one part well enough. I don't carry openly...I'm not a uniform guy. I carry concealed every single day, so I do a lot of practice drawing that way. That video was done without a garment so the whole draw and rack was visible and adding a covering garment wouldn't have changed the relative results.

If you're wearing an open front jacket, as opposed to a closed shirt untucked, flipping it back is the slow, old-school way of doing things. Yes, by current standards it's considered a "hollywood" move by many instructors....and yes, I'm aware of what Mas has commented on. I'll send him a note and see if he'd like to comment, but I'm not sure if he's back from his recent trip.

When you make the hook shape and pull back and down towards the gun, it will flip the jacket out of the way. What you're not doing is flipping the jacket back in one motion and then grabbing the gun in the next...that's the difference between the two.

There are some garments you might have to be more aggresssive with, but the technique of making the hook shape with your gun hand, hooking the jacket/shirt and pulling down and back is the most foolproof and fastest I've seen and what we teach to all of our agent trainees (who are typically going to be wearing a suit coat while carrying). If you extend your pinky a little bit while doing this, it sometimes help. And yes, the jacket will flip back, but that's a byproduct of your hand going to the gun...not the intent of the movement, if that makes sense. At the very least, it's a heck of a lot faster than anybody will ever be cross draw (nearly twice the distance to cover).

It's certainly more foolproof than trying to cross your body with your gun hand and getting it between your jacket and your body....it IS possible to miss that...especially under stress.

The folks that flip the garment back as it's own act often advocate putting something heavy in the pocket on the gunside to make sure it goes back far enough to clear the gun. Not necessary with the hook technique....your hand winds up ON the gun and it doesn't matter how far the garment goes behind it at that point...it's not in the way.

Look at it any way you please, but I have never seen a professional instructor advocate cross draw for anything other than very specialized situations like driving. They tried it back in the early 80s in IPSC and it didn't take long to realize that while it looked cool, it simply was an inferior place to have a gun if you're doing almost anything other than sitting.

It's probably just a definition issue more than anything. Flipping the jacket back, then grabbing the gun is one technique. Making the hook and sliding the hand down and back clears the jacket while going to the gun...sort of the best of both worlds....gets the jacket out of the way and gets your hand on the gun as soon as possible. Try it a couple of times and I think you'll see what I'm trying to explain R,

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USPSA TY23298

I agree that the potential for OVERSWING is the BIGGEST problem with cross draw carry.

Actually, this is my particular message I just happened to be visiting mxbob when I wrote it. Just so everyone knows.

That simply isn't true. The technique is to slide your hand across your stomach & its there. I know: I practice this method and you obviously do not. I'm not argueing what's better, you are! I have the same unfamiliarity with the hook method as you do about grasping a gun from across your body. Its winter up North with large/heavy outer garments. Not going to work, sorry. On the streets, unlike on the firing range, sweeping the pistol across your body doesn't violate any range rules. Your attempt to minimize this carry by stating that under stressful conditions you will overswing your target is simply an over-reach of the wrong kind. Call it Hollywood, or whatever: I know what's best for me. And yes, I also instruct it to others that way. Also, I notice your emphasis about speed in much of what you say. Even from LEO shootouts (FBI Uniform Crime Report), let alone with civilians, this isn't the determing factor on any outcomes. Too many other variables to consider. We are not calling out anyone, mano o mano, like on the "Streets of Laredo". For example, if you aren't thinking about cover & avoidance: speed is worth about......
Now, I will say this for the last time. If wearing a typical outer garment, like a Sport's Jacket, the cross-draw is faster, safer, than one who attempts SS. As a victim, or innocent bystander, as the scenario progresses you are already appearing to scratch your stomach: a few inches from your piece. SS: forget any jump-start. Too many Pro's agree with this, present & past. The reason many do not is their body type. Duke Venturino made a nice parody on why he cannot carry this way, shoulder, b.o.b., ankle, etc. He's can't reach!

Actually, I have practiced cross draw many times....from a seated position, for when I'm in a car. I've tried it enough from standing to know it has serious drawbacks.

From SS you can engage literally about 4" from the holster...hand tucked up into your strong side above the holster...a retention position which is extremely important in many a real-world engagement. That's something that can't be done cross draw....you still have to sweep across to be able to engage. You're still liable to have your hand pinned to your body and be unable to draw. The gun grip is still pointing towards the bad guy. The list pretty much goes on and on.

If cross draw was "faster, safer, than one who attempts SS" why isn't there a single agency/department teaching this for their folks who carry concealed? Think FBI, ATF, DEA, ICE...the list goes on. None of them think cross draw is faster, safer or better. They've tested every method going and SS is always the primary method taught.

I did say in my first post that your pic doesn't look anything like someone who couldn't carry SS...assuming that's you in the pic....which is nothing like Duke Venturino, who quite simply is extremely overweight.

I never said cross draw doesn't have any applications where it's useful, just that it's extremely limited and has a lot of drawbacks. For a few select folks I'm sure it's fine, but for most everyone else, it's a poor choice...that's all. R,

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USPSA TY23298

Simply put: civilians have more parameters. Much of what you listed are carry over from range protocal where you are limited due to over-zealous legal/safety factors.
You still haven't addressed sweeping back a heavy unbuttoned overcoat in SS while walking the Mall in Minnesota? Your frame of reference is strictly "range genre"; not the real world on the streets. Fending off a BG in a gun-grab is no different from either side if you know how to react. You are NOT static, you move, side or back. I still contend that with my CQ training, I'm at no disadvantage.

It would appear that you, Big Foot, are the ONE that is dealing from "FACTS" that are your own and that those "FACTS" are "<span class="ev_code_RED">..not the real world on the streets...</span>"!!!

I don't know just what your <span class="ev_code_RED">"... CQ training..."</span> has been but I'd be willing to bet that I've taught' more Classes than you have taken SO HAVE several of the others who have responded to this thread. Cross Draw has it's place but it's place isn't as an everyday carry position. Unless you spend your entire day sitting behind the wheel of a car in an area very well known for "Car Jackings". Come back when you've walked a Mile in my Shoes until then your CQ training isn't anything more than a Class that you took and your opinion ain't worth squat to those of us here how have or are on the Street right now.

In some ways civilians have more parameters, but not in others...depends on what you choose to look at. For example, I had to carry on a plane today...not something a civilian would have to plan for. Every time I fly I have to be ready for this....heck, it even alters the seats I (should) choose.....so it's got to make me think about my holster setup.

I have never mentioned the range protocal "safety" issue of sweeping across the range. I realize that the range can't duplicate the real-world and so I never addressed it. Others may have, but I don't recall a single point about that. It's no different than with shoulder holsters. I'll let my folks qualify with them, but I'll put a righty at the left end of the bay and a lefty on the right end of the bay. Yes, they could somehow have an AD behind them or so the side, but I make sure there's nobody in that area and make sure everyone is aware of what's going on. It's a slight risk, but I'd prefer people at least get a little practice with what they carry. Lately we haven't had anybody carry that way so it hasn't been an issue.

Sure I addressed the heavy overcoat SS draw previously. I spent the last several years wearing a suit and a heavy (cashmere) overcoat on top of that in the winter, so I have lots of practice carrying in that mode. The hook technique works just fine there too.

It's actually funny that you're suggesting my frame of reference is range genre. That's about as far from reality as can be. I do shoot pistol matches and fun stuff, but I TRAIN to shoot from concealed as that's the way I walk around 365 days a year. On duty I normally carry a G22 in a Kramer VBS and a G27 in an Alessi ankle rig. I practice drawing and shooting with a cover garmet frequently...and not some light little photographers vest either. I've spent countless hours working on techniques, have other folks pick them apart, and try to improve them. I help our two tactical instructors work on defensive/offensive tactics and incorporate them into the training I give. I try my absolute hardest to get people to qualify the way they carry, and to work on advanced skills that are above and beyond what they got at the academy. None of what I teach is "range genre" or competition oriented. I send out all the after-action writeups I can find and always, always, always, try to get people to think about what really happens on the street as opposed to what they do on qualification days.

Well, you're more than welcome to think that you're not at a disadvantage in a gun-grab situation, but it goes against the laws of physics and body mechanics. Your muscles and joints are only strongest in one direction. Sure, you're going to move etc, but you're already defending your gun with the arm/hand that's not as strong....assuming no physical impairment with your strong side hand/arm (which could factor in for some people, certainly). The grip is pointed in the wrong direction for that hand to grasp and cover, but it's pointed neatly at the BG. The most commonly accepted "best" method of retention during a gun grab seems to be where you hook your thumb across the backstrap (or hammer of a revolver) and the rest of your fingers wrap around the slide (topstrap of a revolver). You can't do that cross draw because the gun is simply pointed the wrong way and there isn't a terribly effective alternative...they're pulling the thick part and you're holding the thin part...it's easier to pull through your hand that way. SS, they have to pull the thick part through your hand...not as easy.

Still, there is simply NO way to fire from a position of retention using cross draw...you have to nearly hand the gun to a bad guy if he's really close...think of how that compares with the traditional "speed rock" where the gun is just above the SS holster, pinned into your body with the gun canted outwards so the slide doesn't grab on your or your clothes. It's a VERY common scenario to shoot from that position...can't get there from here cross draw.

In fact, about two months ago we had a State Police officer get into a scuffle with two guys who bum rushed him and pinned him to his car. He managed to get the gun out and fire from a position of retention just as I described....one BG DRT and the other spent a week in the hospital. If he'd had an old-fashioned cross draw rig with a Sam Browne belt, he'd be dead now. Granted, that just one shooting, but it's pretty common. From the video, he likely couldn't have gotten his hand on a cross draw gun, and if he could have, he wouldn't have been able to draw it because the two guys were up against him. He certainly wouldn't have been able to get it out, fire and not risk them taking it away as he pushed it out in front of him. He grabbed the gun, pulled up a couple of inches, pivoted his arm and let lead fly....classic, classic shoot scenario that happens all the time.

I know a fellow agent who wound up wrestling with a BG in a similar fashion...SS carry, got the gun out and shot with the gun inches from the holster...BG DRT as well.

As I've said repeatedly, there are scenarios where cross draw is an excellent choice. It's just not the best or even next to best for the average person who's going to carry CCW unless some extremely odd conditions are in play like a really unusual body shape, physical impairment etc. Short of those, some sort of SS carry is almost always the best....just a general statement....because of the many disadvantages to cross draw.

Every method has disadvantages....some just have a lot more than others and I only see one person trying to defend/rationalize that those inherint disadvantages for cross draw either aren't there, or don't matter for them....that says a lot. I certainly don't see anybody picking on a bunch of problems with SS carry....well, that's probably because it doesn't have many R,

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USPSA TY23298

At least I've got a little concession. G-ManB, I appreciate your well-thought out replies. You realize that much of what I've said is backed up by two giants in personal survival training: former (Ray Chapman)present (Mas A.); the stomach slide is his verbatim. Mas doesn't carry CD; but he'll teach you how. And it works BTW. Granted, the Cross-Draw may not be for everyone. You fail to mention such things as awareness (Condition)and one's mental/physical fitness that negates much of your argument. There have been times when situations dictated a possible use of deadly force; no elbow to cock or worrying about a garment being in the way: I was already innocently scratching my stomach. From SS, your weapon is displayed from the git-go; from CD it's not exposed just up to firing. Now, tell me, who's more ripe for a gun-grab? Do you see the difference? One jump ahead...Thanks for the replies but since no one else is jumping in: nothing more to say.

Careful, Big Foot. You are treading in dangerous waters. Some of these folks have carefully made up their minds, and may have zero tolerance for crossdraws. I screwed up earlier and brought up a similar, less popular practice. I have been righteously politically corrected. PSSSS: Don't tell anyone, but I secretly like a crossdraw on accasion.

Yeah, I've said that all along...sitting in a car, some other unusual situation like flying a helicopter for police/rescue, or someone with a physical impairment might apply. I also said I utilize cross draw for when I'm expecting to do extended surveillance from a car....none of that has changed.

I'm sorry, but Ray Chapman's methods are pretty dated and while a few of the things he espoused are still with us, many have been improved upon. I have no doubt Mas will teach someone the proper method for cross draw, but I don't recall him suggesting it was a preferred method for the way the vast majority of people live and carry.

Fitness and awareness don't come close to negating what I've talked about. Just because you might be "ready" some of the time, doesn't mean you will be all the time.

Great, you've come up with one situation where you THINK you have an advantage from cross draw. Well, that's just not a problem. There's a "prayer position" I teach agent. Your hands are nearly clasped together above your belly button. It looks totally passive, but it's actually a state of readiness from which you can smoothly clear your garment and draw your gun. It actually pre-positions your strong hand in the hook shape to clear the garment.

Not only that, but if I'm "scratching my belly" with a gun SS, I'm no farther from the gun than you are from cross draw. It's virtually NO difference.

Regardless, you STILL won't be able to fire until you've extended the gun nearly all the way towards the BG. I will have gotten off several rounds before you're even close to having the gun pointed at the BG. I'll also have longer to determine if I need to fire or not since I'll be ready to fire first. I'll have the gun in a position of retention and you will have it stuck out there in the breeze, ripe for a struggle.

What I find amusing is that I point out a bunch of extremely significant weaknesses of cross draw and I haven't seen you (or anybody else) refute them.

I guess that's because nobody can refute many of the problems inherint in cross draw....which is probably why no major organization promotes or trains cross draw and so few people utilize it. It sacrifices so many things in the interest of one or two things that it simply isn't worth the trouble.

The absolute, simple fact of the matter is that for most people, in most circumstances, some form of strong side carry is superior. Someone who doesn't fall into an unusual special category like professional surveillance, extremely unusual body shape, or physical impairment that carries cross draw is kidding themselves and rationalizing their choice because they don't want to change and don't really care if what they're doing is really, truly the best overall solution....which is their choice.

I carry strong side, ankle, cross draw, IWB and even sometimes pocket carry depending upon what I'm doing. 98+% of the time SS is the best solution. I'd be willing to be a poll of all the "experts" would come up with similar numbers if they had to weigh all the variables.

I know the experts I work with would just laugh at someone suggesting cross draw as a primary carry method other than for specializec conditions....and rather than try to talk through the various problems associated with it, would decide it was time to go get a fresh cup of coffee....cause there's some sort of issue there they're not going to be willing to waste time on. Luckily, I'm on a firearms instructor tdy and have extra time in the evenings R,

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USPSA TY23298

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TwoGunsStanding:
Some of these folks have carefully made up their minds, and may have zero tolerance for crossdraws. [QUOTE]

I don't know about anyone else, but from post one I've said I do and will carry cross draw for certain situations like when I'm working surveillance from a car...and I don't recall anyone else saying it's never, ever a viable choice....might have missed it if someone did suggest that. R,

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"some folks" and "may have" are the key words. Nothing personal. Greg

Big Foot is the only one here who has chosen to blanket disagree with most everyone else here by stating that Cross Draw is the ONLY Right way.

I seem to have read where most if not all of us who have been "apposed' to the Cross Draw Carry have ALL agreed that it does have it's "Place" in the World of Concealed Carry but simply not as an ALL the time method.

Big Foot has made in onto my Ignore List and for VERY, VERY GOOD reason - because he "Qualifies" 100%!!!

I would even go so far as to say that if a person's lifestyle dictates that they use crossdraw most of the time, and it truly is their best option, they might be best off to always use that method. I would rather have my guns in the same places always if I'm able to.

G-ManBart, now see what you've done. I'm on someones Ignore list for offering a dissenting point of view.
Anyway, I do recall saying somewhere that CD wasn't for everyone...I imagine that holster makers who make the 3-slot pancake can stop now since you suggest it's only for driving or surveillance work. What I didn't say was that on "many occasions" you can have your pistol in hand hidden under your garment while this is impossible under SS. You seem to be preoccupied with "speed" with the draw-presentation phase. Simply the wrong approach. Anyway, going with that for a second; you would lose against someone like myself.
Dismissing Ray Chapman as antiquated has me scratching my head. Its obvious you never met him or attended his Academy. I don't know who your "experts" are that would find this somewhat amusing, but I'm sure they are expert at something.
One last comment (it seems we both must have the last word), in the real-world when "hell breaks loose" and you are not standing still, but moving laterally, or perhaps backwards seeking cover; I contend that SS is far more awkward in the draw-phase. I've been through a "Hogan's Alley", have you?
Appreciate all the replies from you & others, even a few that I offended with my point of view.

Such as a female's? Sometimes crossdraw works well for me because I'm short-waisted and trying to hook my elbow up behind me to get to a high-held gun is awkward. But when I do carry CD, the holster is right at the waistband and slightly forward.



Generally, IWB SS just forward of the hip works the best for me because the gun butt sits lower and at a more comfortable and natural angle.

What kind of holster is that, Barb? Something like that might be of use to my wife someday.

A DeSantis SkyCop. Very comfortable and holds a small revolver just perfectly.

From what I see on the websites, though, the large autos are held differently than the small revolvers.

Thank you. I don't see my wife ever carrying anything bigger than a J frame. A 3" model 60 is to her what a 4" 686 is to someone my size.

Nice set-up. I don't see any "Hollywood" in this...From a physiological standpoint, regardless of age, cocking an elbow/shoulder is not a natural movement compared to a slight reach across.

I'm going to say something else about the draw back of cross draw for those who have babies or small children.if you cross draw which hip do carry the baby/child.
Do you carry baby strong hand and gun cross draw or
carry baby on the cross draw hip and keep your strong hand open,if you do this how well will you be able to draw from under the child.When i have to carry baby and gun i carry strong hand and strong side.