Interesting questin: How many rounds?

[Protected One]

After watching the following video (which I found posed a great question) I'm interested to hear what you gentlemen have to say on the subject. And, if you're NOT a gentleman feel free to comment anyway.


Five Rounds Enough For Concealed Carry? - YouTube

[jlrhiner]

You should always have one more than you need.

[manyguns]

By the time that gentleman got 1/2 way through I didn't care anymore. It is your life so that makes your thoughts on the subject the most important. I went from a 442 to a Kahr PM9 more for the thin than the capacity. That is a minimum for me. I carry a 3" 1911 most of the time.

[snubbyfan]

[The Big D]

At last...thank you!!!!! Someone who knows stuff and relates FACTS. Bless your little heart! Can I get an Amen?!?!?

Be safe.

Originally Posted by Protected One

After watching the following video (which I found posed a great question) I'm interested to hear what you gentlemen have to say on the subject. And, if you're NOT a gentleman feel free to comment anyway.


Five Rounds Enough For Concealed Carry? - YouTube

[LoboGunLeather]

Every gunfight begins with one round. Every gunfight ends with one round. The ideal gunfight involves just one round. The perfect gunfight is the one I slept through and read about in the newspaper.

[shouldazagged]

I've played the odds for a good many years now: J-frame and sometimes a Speed Strip, more often not. I feel perfectly comfortable with that, especially now that I'm retired, can no longer drive after dark, and don't go into iffy places frequented by iffy people. But when I was working and getting out a lot more I still felt secure with that protection. plus a cell phone, small flashlight and a couple of pocketknives.

The math works just fine for me.

[sipowicz]

I never listen to people with hats and beards.

[Kanewpadle]

I'm a pessimist. I carry 16 in the gun and a spare mag and sometimes a second gun.

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by sipowicz

I never listen to people with hats and beards.

That's too bad. Personally I learned a lot from Gabby Hayes. It didn't make a great deal of sense, but I picked up some colorful expressions.

[Rastoff]

Did you actually want an answer to this question or was it just an opportunity for members to post cute sayings?

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Did you actually want an answer to this question or was it just an opportunity for members to post cute sayings?

He was waiting just for you.

[CommonCents]

You could rip off 5-6 rounds real easy in an adrenaline filled confrontation. Then settle in to be a little more precise. Carry as much as is comfortable for you.

[Ivan the Butcher]

I hear rummers of what has been happening along the southern border, and think high cap is the only way to go FOR THEM. 5 rounds has been all the comfort I've needed. I have one relative with multiple death threats on his life, and 5 is all he needed (actually 2 the first time, and 1 each the 2 other times). If you miss with 13 it won't matter, if you hit with the first, you are in good shape for the next 4 guys. Ivan

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Did you actually want an answer to this question or was it just an opportunity for members to post cute sayings?

I actually want answers, but it's inevitable that the cute sayings are going to show up.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by shouldazagged

I've played the odds for a good many years now: J-frame and sometimes a Speed Strip, more often not. I feel perfectly comfortable with that, especially now that I'm retired, can no longer drive after dark, and don't go into iffy places frequented by iffy people. But when I was working and getting out a lot more I still felt secure with that protection. plus a cell phone, small flashlight and a couple of pocketknives.

The math works just fine for me.

I think thats the point the video was making:
People can (and will) carry as much as they want - you can ALWAY concoct senarios where 2 full-size guns and 3 spare mags each won't be enough, but the overwhelming majority will never need any...and those few that do will need less than 5.

[MrTrolleyguy]

It is a case of possibilities vs probabilities. And the probabilities of needing more than five rounds on any given day is astronomically low.

[jimmyj]

Well:
In the past when the average LEO carried 12 rounds on his gun belt and six rounds in his revolver, I carried 24 rounds on my gun belt, six rounds in my service revolver and five to six rounds in my "BUG" (S&W "J" Frame or Colt Cobra). Better to have too many then not enough.

[fdw]

I tend to fall in the more is better than less category. Worse possible thing I could imagine besides getting shot is being out of ammo and the bg knowing it

[fdw]

This has been posted before but though it worth doing again:


Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

[Donn]

Said it a dozen times. If you have to reload, it's no longer self defense it's a fire fight. If that's the case, you're in deep excrement, doesn't matter if you've got a J frame or a Glock with a 50 round drum. Especially if you've got a 50 round drum.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by fdw

This has been posted before but though it worth doing again:


Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

We're not discussing "cops" here. OF COURSE they need to be equiped differently than civilians.
This clearly falls into that category of -"Well, here's a scenario...."

[fdw]

Originally Posted by Protected One

We're not discussing "cops" here. OF COURSE they need to be equiped differently than civilians.
This clearly falls into that category of -"Well, here's a scenario...."

Well I am, sorry it bothered you...

edit: should have read I AM...

[Silvergoose]

I think carrying five or six rounds is fine. To carry more than that can put you in bad light if you were ever forced to draw and fire your weapon. Carrying more than one weapon,IMO, could indicate to an attorney that you were looking for a fight.

I think we should get over the Zombie B.S. and get on with life. Carry a firearm with the hope you never fire it. Go to the range, practice and shoot as much as you want. Be prepared to defend yourself and your loved ones, the rest will have to take the responsiblity to do the same.

If it is a home invasion I will stop the threat!

Good Luck

[Hodgin]

I agree with what he says about 5 rounds handling the vast majority of concealed carry situations. Of course, more is preferred to less up to a point beyond 5, but 5 gets all but the most extreme. If it takes more than 5 then the BG probably will win and if there's several BGs with guns I'm not likely to get off more than 5 anyway.

Having said that, I carry a 9c with 13 rds or a BG 380 with 7 rds. I do occasionally carry an additional mag with my BG but not all the time.

Home defense is a different situation. I like to have more than 5 rounds for that. More likely to be more than one invader and shooting distances are likely to be further away. I used a 5 shoot revolver with speed loader and 12 ga for home defense for many years.

[kozmic]

Before the safe act in NY, I generally carried 10+1 most of the time. That was the NY limit beforehand. Afterwards I started to carry smaller lower cap guns (J frames, .45 XDs, 9mm Shield, Ultra-sized Kimber, etc.) and extra mags, strips or speed loaders. I also started to carry a bug gun more often. So, I typically had more rounds on me after the safe act than before!

I was at a seminar regarding the legality of handgun use in defense. One of the presenters, a county deputy, stated that the "hit" rate for LEOs is roughly 20%. I'm not sure if that is a local or national stat, but it got me to thinking that a J frame in the hands of a cop is likely to only have one hit (statistically speaking). I don't know how that knowledge will affect my carry practices, but it is an interesting fact.

It should be noted that a NY judge threw out andy's 7 round edict and NYers are now back to the the (still unconstitutional) 10+1 round mag limit.

[Hock]

For starters, I don't care what an attorney thinks about how much I carry because they are going to try to make me look like the villain looking for a fight just because I carry a gun.

Second, missing with many rounds can be effective as well. Effective meaning that the perpetrator(s) decide that you are to much of a hassle and they don't want to die. Its called violence of action. The woman in this thread demonstrates that very nicely: How brazen are thieves becoming?

She was confronted with 3 thugs breaking into her home. She fired multiple shots, no hits, and 2 of them ran away. The 3rd pulled his gun and went to go back in, she fired more shots. If she would have been limited to just 5 rounds it's very likely that her and her children would be dead. Now I know this happened at a house but it could also happen other places as well.

Finally, I always like to have, "It's better to have and never need than need and not have."

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Did you actually want an answer to this question or was it just an opportunity for members to post cute sayings?

Consider me well and truly rebuked. Second childhood.

[Retired LTC, USAR]

So if I'm carrying my 4006, I don't have to take my bag with the exta 40 magazines that I have for it then?

[speedyquad]

my 40c holds 10+1. i generally have the 2nd mag loaded and a full box of 50 in the car. not because i need them, but because my kids stay at my mothers house while i work and that just happens to be where the range is. i do this so i always have a box available in case i make a spur of the moment decision to shoot a little.

when not in the vehicle, it is just the 10+1.

[CommonCents]

statistically a handful is plenty but if people are comfortable w/ carrying more, why not? What is the downside to carrying more if they want to and decide to? NONE.

Even for the slimmer single stacks, its easy to carry another mag if you choose to do so. Thinking in an initial encounter you have a few rounds to get you to a safer place where you could have time to reload.

The video is kinda dumb. It just points out that stats say 5 is enough, but he gives no good reason or opportunity cost to carry more if you wish. MOOT point video.

[BCDWYO]

If we are going by statistical chances of needing to fire our sidearm in self defense, the argument could easily be made that the odds are so slim that we don't NEED to carry at all, so I throw that argument out. Yes, scenarios where you will need a reload are remote, but so are scenarios where you will even need a gun. If you ever do need to fire, then the chances that you might need a reload just went up DRAMATICALLY!

I think an extra mag or two is only common sense if you are carrying a semiauto. Magazines do fail. With revolvers it is pretty easy to at least carry a speed strip if not a speedloader or extra moonclip.

Bottom line, I can't think of a legitimate downside of carrying extra ammo.

[sac-gunslinger]

Originally Posted by jimmyj

Well:
In the past when the average LEO carried 12 rounds on his gun belt and six rounds in his revolver, I carried 24 rounds on my gun belt, six rounds in my service revolver and five to six rounds in my "BUG" (S&W "J" Frame or Colt Cobra). Better to have too many then not enough.

The old Safariland double-dump box (78H/78HV) came with a plastic liner the removal of which allowed you to carry six rounds of 44 in the pouch. Or you could remove the liner and stuff 11 rounds of 357 Magnum in each pouch. That would mean you had 40 rounds on your belt. Unless, of course, you were carrying a Shoemaker speedloader pouch with three speedloaders for 46 rounds. Man, that belt was heavy. But reassuring when you were miles away from anybody else.

Why, yes, I do still have a couple.

[sac-gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Retired LTC, USAR

So if I'm carrying my 4006, I don't have to take my bag with the exta 40 magazines that I have for it then?

No, I think 15 extra magazines ought to be enough.

It all depends on what enables you to feel comfortable while out in the big bad world.

In the service revolver days almost everyone out on the street had a box of 50 rounds in their briefcase.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Protected One

I actually want answers, but it's inevitable that the cute sayings are going to show up.

Originally Posted by shouldazagged

Consider me well and truly rebuked. Second childhood.

You're right Protected One and I wasn't trying to rebuke you shouldazagged, or anyone else. I was actually trying to nudge things back on target because I think it can be an interesting discussion.

The answer for me is simple and not based on numbers. A revolver is fine with whatever it holds as long as the shooter has practiced.

A semi-auto, regardless of magazine capacity, requires a back up mag. Without that, it could malfunction and then there is no way to get back in the fight. While it is unlikely anyone will need the extra rounds, or even to get back in the fight after the first shot, the ability to maintain fighting ability is a requirement.

Originally Posted by Hock

Second, missing with many rounds can be effective as well.

This may have worked a time or two, but is a very poor method of thinking. No instructor worth their salt would ever teach that. No defender that really wants to win will ever think that.

Originally Posted by Hock

She was confronted with 3 thugs breaking into her home. She fired multiple shots, no hits, and 2 of them ran away. The 3rd pulled his gun and went to go back in, she fired more shots. If she would have been limited to just 5 rounds it's very likely that her and her children would be dead.

This is one example of how a woman got lucky. She shouldn't have missed at first.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

You're right Protected One and I wasn't trying to rebuke you shouldazagged, or anyone else. I was actually trying to nudge things back on target because I think it can be an interesting discussion.

Thanks for the attempted nudge. An interesting discussion is what I was hoping for. Not expecting anyone to remove rounds from their 5+ capacity mags or leave their spares at home. But I was hoping that some would see the logic that separates what one chooses to carry, from what one is realistically likelly to need.
For the record: I carry 13+1 with a spare mag in the car.

Originally Posted by Rastoff

The answer for me is simple and not based on numbers. A revolver is fine with whatever it holds as long as the shooter has practiced.

A semi-auto, regardless of magazine capacity, requires a back up mag. Without that, it could malfunction and then there is no way to get back in the fight. While it is unlikely anyone will need the extra rounds, or even to get back in the fight after the first shot, the ability to maintain fighting ability is a requirement.

Agree. 100%

Originally Posted by Rastoff

This is one example of how a woman got lucky. She shouldn't have missed at first.

Her husband had just given her the gun in the last two weeks, and I doubt she did ANY practicing. Still, the flaw in her logic is firing shots to let them know she did in fact have a gun. The rounds should have been fired center mass...I think that would have got the same point across. In my opinion all she did is set herself up for a future break in by the same thugs - only THIS time, all 3 will be armed!

[Fastbolt]

This subject is rather like the "caliber debate" in that there's any number of answers, and any of them can be right, wrong or irrelevant depending on the situational context.

I often carry a 5-shot .38 Spl snub as a retirement weapon. Why? They're handy, light and convenient for those times when I don't care to belt on a large, heavier handgun. I still train, practice & qualify with them, too.

Would I carry one as a primary service weapon? Nope. But I would carry one as a secondary/backup weapon (and as an off-duty/retirement/LEOSA weapon).

I've known folks involved in shootings. The most common "realization" I've heard expressed? Aimed fire can become very critical (regardless of available capacity, but if the realization comes later in the shooting incident, having enough remaining capacity to start making aimed shots is a good thing).

I can think of a home invasion where one of the family members exhausted a 5-shot revolver and died.

I can think of a cop who successfully used a 5-shot revolver to stop 3 armed robbery suspects.

I can think of a cop who died holding a 5-shot revolver when intervening during an armed robbery.

I can think of many examples offered during a couple of different training classes (street tactics & LEOKA) where 5-shot revolvers successfully saved the lives of an impressive number of cops, both on & off-duty.

My thoughts on capacity have obviously been influenced by my career, including my involvement as a firearms instructor. I carried a 6-shot service revolver as a young cop, and either a 6 or 5-shot revolver off-duty, or my Colt Commander (7-rd mags back then).

I carried a variety of issued pistols over the years, starting with 14, 15 & then 12-rd 9mm's, followed by 12 & 9-rd .40's and then 8 & 7-rd .45's at the end of my career. If I were going to choose a new service weapon today, it would probably be a 9mm, in whatever capacity configuration was available at the moment. I tend to like the recoil management & controllability of the 9's ... and if it had been permitted, I'd have finished my career carrying one of my last issued 6906 12-rd guns.

Ammunition capacity can be a good thing, but it oughtn't be considered as a substitute for mindset, skillset or the proper understanding and use of awareness & tactics.

I've sometimes suspected that some folks tried (intentionally or unintentionally) to lean on "capacity" the same way they leaned on "better bullets" or bigger calibers in lieu of emphasis on personal skillsets, perseverance in training, frequency of proper practice and cultivating an optimal mindset for facing threats and potential deadly force encounters.

A rabbit's foot just takes up space in your pocket, and a handgun on the hip (or in the pocket) ought not to be a talisman.

Avoidance is a good thing, but denial isn't such a good thing.

I certainly don't have the "right" answer for any particular situation or person, and the "right" answer for me can vary from one day or anticipated situation or set of potential circumstances to the next. Probably why I still have a safe full of handguns and keep running through them on the range.

I'll offer this and stop the rambling ...

Regardless of what handgun I've carried on or off-duty (caliber or capacity) I never considered myself well-armed, but just armed. It was still just a handgun, after all. When I was on-duty and knew enough in advance of a serious deadly threat, the shotgun came out of the car ... (and if we'd had the right locking trunk racks for my plainclothes car before I retired, I'd have added a rifle to the shotgun I carried in the trunk).

[ChattanoogaPhil]

The odds that the guy offered in the vid are misleading. If you are a street corner drug dealer you're a bunch more likely to be involved in a shooting than average law abiding Joe not involved in criminal or other high risk activities. The shootings around here are generally confined to certain areas. Stay away from those areas and you are safer carrying nothing than wandering around in those areas with 100rds.

IMO, carrying your head on straight is generally more effective than carrying more ammo in the life of average Joe.

5 shot revolver and LCP.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

IMO, carrying your head on straight is generally more effective than carrying more ammo in the life of average Joe.

I think this is more important than any discussion of how many rounds.

I don't have statistics to back this up, but I'll bet those who carry are less likely to get in situations where they need to defend themselves.

[SgtLumpy]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

...I don't have statistics to back this up, but I'll bet those who carry are less likely to get in situations where they need to defend themselves.

I've always hoped that was the case. Something tells me that's the way you teach your classes.

"I'm armed and this situation doesn't look great. The best thing I can do is to leave/not go in"

That's much better than -

"I'm not afraid of nutin'. I got a gun with 50 rounds. Waitress, bring me another beer"


Sgt Lumpy

[venomballistics]

my answer revolves around the capacity of a car and the Rhodesian drill.
15 rounds minimum, to drop everyone who came out of that car. Odds are I will never need that much before resolution is achieved

[coltle6920]

Do we need only five rds for concealed carry or do we need more. That should be up to the wants of the individual and not even an argument here.You can give any scenario you can think of and something else will occur.

You can cite all the statistics you want about LEO and the percentage of shots fired versus hits and it isn't necessarily comforting to someone like me the average citizen who practices but still doesn't know how he'll react in a life or death situation.At least in home defense one would think the homeowner would have the advantage to some degree.

Someone in this thread talked about 5rds being sufficient vs 13rds.You might stop the threat with 5 or less shots fired but then again you might not.I'd rather know that I have 8 more rds just in case.

I also think another variable might be if your position in a situation is purely defensive or offensive.Are you defending yourself personally or did a situation arise while you were in a diner eating and you decided to take an offensive position in taking down the perp.

Sorry if I wander a bit but if we were all as good a shot as they are in the movies a six shot revolver would be all we would ever need.

[RobertJ.]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I think this is more important than any discussion of how many rounds.

I don't have statistics to back this up, but I'll bet those who carry are less likely to get in situations where they need to defend themselves.

I would hope this is true for most of us.

I know that for me, "situational awareness" is my first line of defense.

My EDC is a Colt Detective Special. I carry one speed strip. Like a previous poster stated, if you need to reload, you're up a creek anyway. And if I have a chance to reload, there's a pretty good chance I can run for it!

Lately, however, I have started carrying my Model 39 once in a while, depending where I'm at. I didn't want to start carrying it before I had a chance to practice with the first shot DA, second shot SA. It took a little time to get the hang of that! But with that and a back up mag, I have 17 rounds total, and I'm comfortable with that.

[OldAFVet]

I carry whatever my gun-of-the-day holds. It's to get me out of the fight, not keep me in it.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by SgtLumpy

Something tells me that's the way you teach your classes.

Indeed. I would rather my students use their superior intelligence in order to avoid having to use superior skill.

[TexasArmed]

Originally Posted by Silvergoose

I think carrying five or six rounds is fine. To carry more than that can put you in bad light if you were ever forced to draw and fire your weapon. Carrying more than one weapon,IMO, could indicate to an attorney that you were looking for a fight.

I think we should get over the Zombie B.S. and get on with life. Carry a firearm with the hope you never fire it. Go to the range, practice and shoot as much as you want. Be prepared to defend yourself and your loved ones, the rest will have to take the responsiblity to do the same.

If it is a home invasion I will stop the threat!

Good Luck

I would have to disagree regarding carrying two guns being interpreted as looking for a fight. I carry two revolvers, which hold five rounds each, that's a total of 10 rounds. That is still less rounds than one person carrying a semi automatic and one 15 round magazine. Normally I carry at least 4 speed loaders, two with 44 special rounds and two with 38 Special P+ rounds. If I should on occasion carrying only one revolver then I carry 15 of the 44 Special rounds in 3 speed loader, if I carry only the 38 Special I carry 4 speed loaders, (20 rounds). One of the reasons I carry two revolvers is for a difference in situations. With a pocket holster I can place my hand on the gun without un-concealing if need be. But I am not in a contest to carry the least number of rounds or handguns I need. Two is all I can comfortably manage. While I don't think I will encounter a zombie or a knockout player, I do not play such games, but if I do encounter one who attacks me he will be leaking badly. I stop doing physical fights long before I got to be an old man.

[Philadelphia Patriot]

I carry either 10 rounds or 17 rounds in my Ruger SR9c, 17 rounds in my M&P 9, or 8 rounds in my American Classic 1911 Commander (while carrying my Ruger LCP as a BUG). Recently, I've also been carrying my Ruger LCP as my BUG in my jacket's chest/document pocket, no matter which primary EDC gun I choose. I think I'm going to get an ankle holster for the LCP soon. In the Summer, I'll probably only carry one gun since I'll only be wearing a t-shirt and shorts.

[Philadelphia Patriot]

I'd like to add it's not easy to draw while driving my truck if I only have one gun in a hip holster. My Ruger LCP in my jacket's chest/document pocket makes drawing while driving very easy. I use to have a Ruger LCR with an ankle holster, and it was very easy to draw from my ankle while sitting in my truck too. I don't care what others think about "looking for a fight" while carrying two guns. If....IF I am lucky to survive the encounter, I'll deal with the judge and jury when the time comes.

[Capt.Jim]

Well, since I am a gentleman here is my opinion.

Video explores the concept of "what MINIMUM round capacity is enough for civilians to carry around without risking their safety in a self defense situation outside of their home or business"...
Then he goes in to the statistics to point out how many rounds ever needed for a self defense situation by civilians.

He is just pointing out that the statistics indicates that it is a very, very slim to none chance that a CCW will ever;
-involve in a situation where a gun will be needed for self-defense,
and even if that situation arises;
-just presenting the gun will solve the problem most of the times,
if the gun's presentation wasn't enough to stop the threat and the gun has to be fired, again;
-in most of those cases gun was fired only once...
and if one shot didn't end the situation, in very extremely rare cases;
-a maximum of 3 shots were sufficient to end the self defense situation.

So based on that data, his conclusion developed as "you'll be ok if you are carrying a 5 round revolver".

Somebody above mentioned very correctly. If you have to reload (no matter what capacity of a gun) you are NOT in a self defense situation. You are in a gun battle!

So, this video presents an opinion that carrying a 5 round capacity revolver is sufficient enough for a CCW without risking safety in almost every self defense case.

He is just making that point! That's all!

Again, not a rule... Just a point!
You carry whatever make you feel safer. Agreed!

The point is, if you are carrying 10+1 in the gun and another 20 rounds in two extra magazines, it is just because that's what make you feel safe, otherwise NOT because most self defense situations require 15-20 or even more rounds to be fired!

The message I got from this video is, any CCW out there doesn't have to feel unsafe IF not carrying a 17 round capacity semi-auto with 2 extra magazines.

This may be a controversial issue over here but I agree with the point he makes!

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

my answer revolves around the capacity of a car and the Rhodesian drill.
15 rounds minimum, to drop everyone who came out of that car. Odds are I will never need that much before resolution is achieved

What if the car is full of Circus clowns and 23 of them pile out of that Mini C per?