The Jim Bowie Mystery. Was This His Last Knife?

This is a copy of the knife used by Jason Patric in "The Alamo". His/my knife is based on the famous "Musso bowie". The blade is 12 & 1/2" long. Collector Musso bought a dirty old bowie knife in the 80's. He cleaned it up and found the initials "JB" and a small officers star in the guard. The metal was analyzed and dated to the early 1830's and the markings weren't stamped but were in the molding of the guard. A star was a typical insignia for officers in the Texas Military. Jim Bowie was a colonel.
All Musso says is this knife was made for an officer with the initials"JB" in the eary 1830's and leaves it at that. Bowie's early knives were described as "butcher type knives" and his brother had custom knives made in that style.The mystery is, is the Musso bowie Jim Bowie's last knife, picked up by someone at the Alamo.
If any forum members have interesting bowie or Tennesee Toothpick style knives, feel free to post them here.

Here's an old one...

Col. Bowie's knife.

"Run, boys! Run for your life! Here comes Jim Bowie with his knife..." as the song goes.
In either case, Col. Bowie carried a lot of large knives and often gave them out to friends and business associates. As for his last knife, no one really knows what it looked like. The knife that his nurse took from his body (suuposedly) after Santa Anna got through with him looked like a double edged dagger.
Most of the Bowie's that were contemporary with his time did not look anything like the blades we call Bowies today, but more like a very large (small machete-sized) butcher knives.

If you showed the Col a "modern" Bowie, he'd probably say "That's not a knife..." then pull one of the ones I described and say "THIS is a knife!"

I know a man who is the last surviving founder of the American Bladesmith Society, and he is an Alamo authority and a Bowie authority. A retired educator, he has a quite impressive Bowie presentation.

I have also handled the controversial Bart Moore Bowie and discussed it with the bladesmith in residence at Black's Forge in Washington, AR in the late 1980's. He has also seen the Moore knife.We agreed that it is a very interesting old knife that may have been in a fire, as when Santa Anna had the bodies of the Alamo defenders burned. Some Mexican may have found it after that event.

It is rather crude for a knife actually made to the order of Jim or Rezin Bowie. The knives that they are known to have commissioned by Searles and others, which have been authenticated, look very like large Mediterranean (sp?) dirks, similar to slightly upswept French chefs' knives, with fancier hilts. This is also consistent with Rezin Bowie's account of the Bowie knives. Blade length was about 9.5 inches.

The knife shown here looks too heavy and clumsy for something carried by a man who knew knife fighting. Based on its looks, I seriously doubt that it was ever owned by either Bowie.

Certain Bowie collectors have enormous egos. I have heard it said of one of these men that if the original Bowie knife was ever "discovered", it would be by him, and he would be sure that it got attention, with his name prominently attached to the event.

Personally, I think that some Mexican of no particular prominence took the knife at the Alamo, the one that Bowie last held. Had some prominent officer taken it, it probably would have surfaced by now. Might even be on display in Mexico City. Probably, it was used up digging in some peasant's garden. If it is in the possession of some important Mexican family, I hope that it appears and can be authenticated. Texas universities and museums and collectors would all stampede to own it, and a pretty penny might be spent to obtain it. But that would require ironclad provenance. Certainly something very like that...

I am now writing a novel that includes some aspects of this, and will say no more here.

But I doubt that any knife carried by Bowie at the Alamo has so far surfaced. If it does and can be authenticated, I think it will resemble the Searles or similar knives, and be of about that size. But I might accept a good Sheffield knife, with suitable provenance. That proof is the real sticker, and may simply be unobtainable.

I am personally suspicious of any knife, like the Moore example, that closely resembles that described in the novel by Paul Wellman, "The Iron Mistress." The knives of which I have seen pictures that were possibly made by James Black in Arkansas just don't seem as slick a product as the well-off Bowie brothers would have bought. But the overall style is "possible", and Black's frontier forge might not have all the sophistication of the Schively (sp?) and Searles shops.

The only thing certain about Bowie's final knife is that no one knows for certain what it looked like, or if it has survived. Frankly, I doubt that we'll ever know!

T-Star

FWIW

Bowie Knife - Encyclopedia of Arkansas


http://arms2armor.com/Knives/arkpick1.htm

Re; T-star, Thanks for the input. I recall reading about the knife with the "burnt" handle but don't think I saw a picture of it. I'll google it.
Just from the stuff I've read here and there, Bowie's Sand bar "butcher type" knife seems like a crude version of the later fancy Alamo and Fowler knives made by Searles as ordered by Rezin Bowie. Were these two knives mentioned made after J.B. died? If so maybe they are Rezin's idea of a good knife and not Jim's. Or he made knives in the style his brother liked. Beats me.
I've been waiting around for The Iron Mistress to come on TV. Haven't seen it since I was a kid. The knife "James Black" makes for Alan Ladd is duplicated now and is in the Dixie catalog, too. I don't like it as much now as when I was a kid.
I've read two articles about Joe Musso and his knife. While his knife became famous and a contender in the Bowie debate, in the stuff I read he never insists it was J.B.'s. I have one article in an old G&A where he writes about Alan Ladd's movie knives, showing pics. of all knives in the movie including a calapsible blade version for sticking guys on camera.
Whatever the case, I really like the shape of my knife I pictured here. And it looks pretty damn cool in Jason Patric's hand in "The Alamo". Edit! I'm back from googling The Moore knife. Wow. That's not what I expected. It's different from my knife AND the Searles knives. I don't much like it with that curly guard, which is besides the point since we're wondering if Jim Bowie owned it.

James Black- Bowie Knife maker - Norm Flayderman,author and researcher of Bowie knives

Here is a knife supposedly made by James Black, Note the coffin-style handle and silver trim. These varied in size, and this one looks very practical. Another is so long that it might make a good machete or short sword!

The movie knives from, "The Iron Maiden" look good to me, well thought-out, but are probably not the sort really used by Bowie.

Some think that the Randall Model 1 is about as practical a "Bowie" design as has been made. It is today often referred to as being of "improved Bowie" design. And the splendid Fallkniven Odin and Thor knives are fine modern "Bowies."
I have an Odin, and love it, when a knife that size is legal to carry and appropriate for the tasks at hand.

Randall has several variations in his Model 12 that are also deemed to be Bowie-like.

www.randallknives.com

www.fallkniven.com

"Tunnel in the Sky", by the late Robert Heinlein mentions a Bowie-style knife carried by a young hero in a sci-fi novel. The Bowie name has become very well known. Heinlein knew edged weapons well, having fenced for the Naval Academy. His selection of a knife with a 21CM (8.3-inch) "molysteel" blade seems sound, and I tend to picture the eight-inch Randall Model 1 or the Fallkniven Odin when I read that book and want to turn the words into mental pictures. I mention that this knife in the book was named "Col. Bowie", to show how wide its fame is. It even finds a place in science fiction books set far into the future!

Wyatt Burp said:

Re; T-star, Thanks for the input. I recall reading about the knife with the "burnt" handle but don't think I saw a picture of it. I'll google it.
Just from the stuff I've read here and there, Bowie's Sand bar "butcher type" knife seems like a crude version of the later fancy Alamo and Fowler knives made by Searles as ordered by Rezin Bowie. Were these two knives mentioned made after J.B. died? If so maybe they are Rezin's idea of a good knife and not Jim's. Or he made knives in the style his brother liked. Beats me.
I've been waiting around for The Iron Mistress to come on TV. Haven't seen it since I was a kid. The knife "James Black" makes for Alan Ladd is duplicated now and is in the Dixie catalog, too. I don't like it as much now as when I was a kid.
I've read two articles about Joe Musso and his knife. While his knife became famous and a contender in the Bowie debate, in the stuff I read he never insists it was J.B.'s. I have one article in an old G&A where he writes about Alan Ladd's movie knives, showing pics. of all knives in the movie including a calapsible blade version for sticking guys on camera.
Whatever the case, I really like the shape of my knife I pictured here. And it looks pretty damn cool in Jason Patric's hand in "The Alamo". Edit! I'm back from googling The Moore knife. Wow. That's not what I expected. It's different from my knife AND the Searles knives. I don't much like it with that curly guard, which is besides the point since we're wondering if Jim Bowie owned it.

Click to expand...

Wyatt-

I don't recall that the Moore knife had a particularly burned handle, but oak (?) is a tough wood, and the knife may have been pulled out of the Alamo funeral pyre before it ignited. But the blade is warped slightly, as seen from above, and the grooves atop the blade intended to presumably anchor a brass strip are revealed. No brass remains.

The knife may have been re-handled in the distant past, or the blade may have been warped from some cause other than fire. Maybe a wagon wheel ran over it.

Going by memory, I don't think the blade had a distal taper along the spine. Some knives have that feature, to add to balance and quickness. But not all good knives have a distal taper. When it's present, it can be rather subtle. I don't offhand recall ever seeing a factory knife with such a taper. It probably requires hand grinding.

Bart Moore's knife is very interesting, but not especially refined, and I personally don't think that it was Bowie's. My impression of Mr. Moore, based on brief exposure, is that he seems a nice man who quite probably is sincere in his belief about the knife, which has been in his family for many years. I really wish that we knew the full story of that knife!

Hope that's of interest.

T-Star

About the Moore knife. I wonder if it was ever tested for age and to see if the Bowie name on the side was engraved at the time it was made or at least before 1836, and if the oxidation in the lettering matches the blade.
My king size "Bowie" looks rediculously big by today's standards. But these were common in the old days. Maybe since they were made during a period when the carrying of swords and dueling in that manner was still going on. Except for the civil war, it seems that as the guns got better the knives got smaller.
T-star. There was a well documented and witnessed account of a gun/knife fight here in the gold rush country. It involved a Capt. John Davis who killed about 14 men single handed with two Colt Dragoons and a "bowie" knife. He confronted a newspaper editor in his office and got the guy to write a retraction after he said it was BS. But there were witnesses. In my favorite book "Gold dust and Gunsmoke", which is about gold rush violence, there are many accounts of knikes used in fights. And one actual account of a guy throwing a large knife into another guys chest during a fight. This was up the hill here in Mokeuleme Hill. Have you heard that story about this Davis fight?

The problem with the Bowie is that much of what is known today as "history" is based on information from two BS artists extraordinaire. The first was Daniel Jones who embellished the James Black/Arkinsas tale to promote the state of Arkinsas. The second was Raymond Thorp who fabricated much to promote himself. Since real history of the period is sketchy and no knife was ever found at the Alamo we'll probably never know for sure.

IMHO Texas Star's mention of a french chef's style knife is perhaps the best bet. That's what Edwin Forrest's knife looks a bit like and that knife is documented to be linked to Bowie himself. Here's a link to a pic of that knife. Edwin Forrest Bowie Knife

Bob

bk43 said:

The problem...the state of Arkinsas.
Bob

Click to expand...

Another problem is possibly being discredited for failing to correctly spell the twenty-fifth State of the Union.

This could lead to speculation that you are not one of the sharper knives in the drawer...

possible bowies...

Two Searles pattern bowies by Ed Kalfayan of Michigan:





Coffin Handled "Philadelphia Style Bowie"


English Style Bowie (miniature)



What bowie did Jim Bowie carry? A really tough question; here's "Bowie #1" attributed to James Black circa 1830; it is probably very close to what Jim Bowie carried...

Wyatt Burp said:

About the Moore knife. I wonder if it was ever tested for age and to see if the Bowie name on the side was engraved at the time it was made or at least before 1836, and if the oxidation in the lettering matches the blade.
My king size "Bowie" looks rediculously big by today's standards. But these were common in the old days. Maybe since they were made during a period when the carrying of swords and dueling in that manner was still going on. Except for the civil war, it seems that as the guns got better the knives got smaller.
T-star. There was a well documented and witnessed account of a gun/knife fight here in the gold rush country. It involved a Capt. John Davis who killed about 14 men single handed with two Colt Dragoons and a "bowie" knife. He confronted a newspaper editor in his office and got the guy to write a retraction after he said it was BS. But there were witnesses. In my favorite book "Gold dust and Gunsmoke", which is about gold rush violence, there are many accounts of knikes used in fights. And one actual account of a guy throwing a large knife into another guys chest during a fight. This was up the hill here in Mokeuleme Hill. Have you heard that story about this Davis fight?

Click to expand...

The last that I heard, Bart Moore was refusing to let the knife be date-tested, fearing damage to it. I also don't think the steel content has ever been analyzed.

Personally, I think the English Bowies are the most attractive and handle best, if the handle isn't too slab-sided. A knife with a blade over eight inches is pretty awkward for most people.

Knives have certainly been used in combat. The late G.W. Stone told me that a soldier had taken a Viet Cong's head clean off with a Model A Stone knife. Randall has some letters in hs files that also attest to the effectiveness of the knife in battle.

An El Salvadoran soldier in Iraq used a lockblade folding knife when he ran out of ammo. He killed and injured several insurgents before they broke and ran.

I also know of knives being used to save lives when bears, a lion, a cougar, and sharks attacked people. Hmmm. Maybe just one bear. I'll have to think. But that bear had seven dead men in a nearby food cache when stabbed to death by a fisherman.

US Rangers used commando knives very effectively against Italians in North Africa. One Ranger wrote that Italians reacted with fear to the knife. That battle was at El Guettar (sp?).

T-Star

I know that I am dragging a old thread back from last year...

But there is a update of info on the Musso Bowie that involves correspondence from some of the principle folks involved with the knife.

Link....
MUSSO BOWIE KNIFE UPDATE - Topic

The current issue of a knife mag, I think, Blade, has an article on the knife used in several movies. This includes real knives and some props, one of which has a retractable blade, so it could appear to have stabbed an actor.
The design of the clip and point of this knife is shockingly similar to that of the sword in a famous statue of Perseus holding the head of Medusa. ADDED LATER: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus Look at the sword in the top photo, of Perseus by Cellini. The angle and photo quality aren't ideal, but I think the similarity is plain.

That knirfe has a point that I believe is probably unique, other than for that Perseus sword. The sword is very odd, not being a typical Greco-Roman style like Perseus might have used, had that legend/myth been true.

The statue is very well known; you can probably Search it by using a term like Statue of Perseus Holding the Head of Medusa. I forget where it's now displayed. Someone here who knows how to post photos can probably post it. I don't know about copyrights; the statue is too old to be an issue, but someone's picture may be copyrightable.

Many of you saw this knife in the TV series about Jim Bowie and I think it was in, The Last Command and other movies, as well as being best known as the knife in, The Iron Mistress. It was commissioned for that film.

I am not claiming that the designer of this Hollywood knife deliberately copied the point shape from that on the Perseus statue. I am only saying that I have personally not seen that shape elsewhere, and I have seen a LOT of knives. And quite a few Greek and Roman swords and authentic reproductions. I have no idea why the sculptor chose that shape, but most artists have their own inspirations and most don't know weapons well. He may have just wanted to be different and it pleased his artistic eye.

Get, Blade and look at that knife and look at the statue and post here if you think you see the similarity! Of course, the Perseus sword is longer.

I have not written for, Blade for some years and have no financial or other connection to that publisher, although my material has been published there in the past and in their annual, Knives (always suffixed with the year of the edition.)

I am not posting this to sell copies of the magazine; you can just look at it at the newsstand and see the blade shape. Then, look at that statue!

T-Star

Texas Star,

I recently added this one to my collection. The blade shape is more in keeping with American versions of the early knife.

Seems the English influencedi what most associate with the blade design. The modern clip point.



Giz

Gizamo-

I think you may well be correct. The Sheffield cutlers were probably more sophisticated and experimental. Their Bowies and London hunting knives saw sales not just here, but all over their Empire. "King Solomon's Mines" mentions the Bowie knives used by those characters. (First published in 1883.) The author had spent time in South Africa, where he probably encountered the knives. Indeed, he fought in the Second Zulu War, the one featured in the film, "Zulu".

BTW, I'm a fan of a discontinued TV show, "The Lost World", based on Doyle's book of the name. I've occasionally mentioned the guns from the show, but the knives were also what one might have encountered in the hands of a British expedition mounted in the 1920's. One (hot chick) character carried at various times both a cheap British Army jungle knife and a Fairbairn-Sykes lookalike that I think was made by Fox in Italy. The Bowies carried by the men looked very like "period" Sheffield products. If anyone is interested, I can post links to see clips of the show on YouTube featuring both one of the Bowie types and the F-S lookalike. That show was filmed in Australia, but I think the Bowie knives used were probably German, although they could be by Aussie custom makers. One closely resembled a Model 1 Randall. But some old Sheffield Bowies found their way there, and I guess had been seen by the prop people who found similar modern knives. For all I know, the real Ned Kelly may have carried a Bowie knife! They got around. If Kelly had one, it probably came from Sheffield.

And the better Bowies of reasonable size were darned good weapons and tools. I don't think they had any real peers until Webster Marble designed his Ideal, which is basically a Bowie!

Bad Joke, Don't get mad

I have Jim's last knife. SEE, it has his name right on the blade.I'll be glad to sell it in the 5 figure range.Contact me for shipping info and payment instructions..

Combat said:

I have Jim's last knife. SEE, it has his name right on the blade.I'll be glad to sell it in the 5 figure range.Contact me for shipping info and payment instructions..

Click to expand...

Is this knife by Linder Messer? Does it have a brand on it, or just maybe say, "Solingen"?

Looks like a pretty good knife. Some of those were sold here years ago for much less than they cost new now.

It says Sabre,Solingen on one side and American Knife Co. on the other.