Need help from the experts here, can I shoot 9mm Para in a 9x21 barrel ?

shooboy

shooboy

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Hi, Looking for an answer and don't know who or where to ask. I bought a Tanfoglio TZ 75 Series 88, an almost direct clone of a CZ 75. It came with both a regular 9mm barrel, and also a longer threaded barrel with compensator. The copmenesator barrel says 9mm Para, but right underneath that stamping is a 9 x 21 stamping. This gun was formerly used in IPSC competition I believe, or back when it was fashionable to hand load 9 x 21 ammo. I also have read that both rounds are nearly identical in length, with I believe the 21 case a little longer but the bullet length a little shorter, that way they are comparable in length. I dropped a 9mm Para round into the barrel chamber and it appears to fit just fine. So my question is, can I shoot the Para rounds in this barrel without any concerns ? I probably won't use it too much, but I'd really like to mess around with it a little bit. Please help me if you can, and thanks in advance, I'll post a picture or two of the old girl too, Shoo
The CZ 75BD and it's Italian cousin, CZ on top:
czandtz001.jpg

The old girl with comp barrel:
czandtz003.jpg
 
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I don't think that it would work, because a 9mm Para headspaces from the case mouth. This would leave space between the back of the case and the face of the slide.
I could be all wet on this one, it's happened before.
 
Thanks westcoast362, I found this page, lists just about every cartridge dimension. Looks like the 9mm Para and the 9 x 21 are the same length and same size bullet diameter. Do they just ream the chamber in the barrel the extra .060" to fit the longer case of the 9 x 21 ? Thanks, Shoo
http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm
 
The chamber should be 2mm longer, which would be a problem. They still use 9X21 in IPSC, and the brass should be available. I would not try to shoot 9X19 in the barrels. They may or may not have loaded to SAAMI specs to get the gun to run, but the chamber will be 21mm deep.
 
Shoo,

OAL for both cartridges is the same so that they can use the same magazines. The 9x21 is loaded hotter than the 9x19, and the extra case length keeps you from using a 9x21 in a 9x19 chamber (much like .38/.357 and .45ACP/.460 Rowland). You might be able to use the shorter round in the longer chamber if the cartridge would headspace off the extractor, but it's not a good idea for reliability. It's also hard on the gun if the 9x19 does headspace on the chamber mouth, and if the firing pin is long enough to ignite it.

I wouldn't do it.

Buck
 
Thanks guys, I'll probably just use the shorter barrel that has not been modified for 9x21 for now. And then when I get a chance I'll order a few boxes of 9x21 from Graf and Sons to try out the longer barrel and comp. I'd hate to mess up the gun being cheap and trying to get away with using 9x19 in the longer barrel. Thanks again, Shoo
 
Headspace on the bullet

Hi Shooboy,
I expect you could set it up with an overall length that would allow it to headspace on the bullet against the rifling. It should work if you have room in the magazines for the extra legnth.
If you were just wanting to use it and not invest in brass/dies etc. I'd try it.
I would do it if it were mine.
You will have to start low on load and work up.
I am doing about the same thing with a 9x19 bbl. that had the chamber reamed too deep. I set my overall length to where the back of the case is flush with the barrel hood when the bullet engages the rifling.
It shoots great and works well and should not be too much different than what you have.
This is all in the assumption that you are a handloader?
Hope this helps
Mike
 
Hi Mike, Unfortunately I don't reload. Who knows in the future I may come across a nice deal on a reloader and then would try my hand at it. Thanks for the info however. I have found some ammo for around $20 a box of 50, so I might try some of that now and then. Take care, Shoo
 
Have you looked at possibly putting a bushing in the chamber to go back to 9X19. I have admired some of your tools and you could certainly handle the job. That is if you really like the longer barrel.
 
84CJ said:
Have you looked at possibly putting a bushing in the chamber to go back to 9X19. I have admired some of your tools and you could certainly handle the job. That is if you really like the longer barrel.
Click to expand...

Hmmm...... might have to look into this idea. I wonder if it can be done ? I'd think putting a .001" press-fit on a bushing might work ? Have you ever heard of it being done ? Don't know if there'd be too much gap on the taper of the chamber.......Thanks, Shoo
 
Shoo, it's been done many times and for a long time. LOTS of M1 Garands that shoot 308 Winchester/7.62 Nato have the spacer in the chamber to allow the chamber to accept the shorter cartridge. I've never heard of it being done with a handgun caliber, but I don't see where the engineering thought process would be that much different than in the M1.

Class III
 
It's also been done using an insert to convert 9mm Browning Long to .380ACP. Slight interference fit, and you can use a broken shell extractor to get the insert out if you want to go back to the original caliber.

My only reservation would be the tapered chamber. All of the insert conversions I've heard about were straight cylinders.

Buck
 
I think it would work. Heat the barrel freeze the bushing. It would be there to stay. I have never done this to a chamber but I do it almost daily at work with good results on machinery that gets hammered pretty good.
 
To get the comp to function you are going to need to load up anyway. This solution is only feasible for a machinist, no one would spend what a gunsmith would charge to fit a spacer to a $200 barrel. Why not buy the brass and have someone reload for you.
 
I can tell you what happened to me a little while back I had listed a MP82 Holmes machine pistol on the Guns for sale, didnt sell it there but did sell for my price and I loaded some 9 by 19 shells with lead bullets to send the dealer a video of it in action, shot the video and emailed him the file and my Grandson came by and wanted to shoot it before it shipped out so I loaded the last 10 rounds I had in it and got ready to video him and the first shot did not fire, you get very goosey when that happens with a full auto so I cleared it and I had gotten a .380 casing in with the 9mm's and it would have been the same with your 9x19 in a 9x21 chamber the .380 was about .060 to short. This would be much better than the 9x21 in a 9x19 chamber. Jeff
 
This is a very old thread but does not really answer the question. Most of the answers are based on assumptions, like 9x21 is hot loaded and additional 2mm length of the chamber is required. Its all BS.
Its not one size fit all. There difference in the dynamics of 9mm 9x19 of different brands even with same grain weight. 9mm 9x19 115Grain can produce energy of usually less than 400ft-lb but some examples like Fiocchi and Extreme shock ammo can produce energy well over that (442ft-lb). 9x21 produces energy usually less than 500ft-lb. The 9x21 I had were 464ft-lb, bought about 8000 rounds at the start of Pandemic and have used over 6000 in Glock17 and Tanfoglio witness extreme without any problem. The additional length of the shell is overlapping the projectile and the over all length is generally the same in both or may be a difference of less than 0.5mm is there. We shoot both 9x21 and 9x19 without feeling any difference or malfunction.

shooboy said:
Hi, Looking for an answer and don't know who or where to ask. I bought a Tanfoglio TZ 75 Series 88, an almost direct clone of a CZ 75. It came with both a regular 9mm barrel, and also a longer threaded barrel with compensator. The copmenesator barrel says 9mm Para, but right underneath that stamping is a 9 x 21 stamping. This gun was formerly used in IPSC competition I believe, or back when it was fashionable to hand load 9 x 21 ammo. I also have read that both rounds are nearly identical in length, with I believe the 21 case a little longer but the bullet length a little shorter, that way they are comparable in length. I dropped a 9mm Para round into the barrel chamber and it appears to fit just fine. So my question is, can I shoot the Para rounds in this barrel without any concerns ? I probably won't use it too much, but I'd really like to mess around with it a little bit. Please help me if you can, and thanks in advance, I'll post a picture or two of the old girl too, Shoo
The CZ 75BD and it's Italian cousin, CZ on top:
czandtz001.jpg

The old girl with comp barrel:
czandtz003.jpg
Click to expand...
 
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