I have heard and read over the years the many sources about how weak the little .25 ACP is on penetration, so I decided to try it out for myself. I took my little Walther 8 pistol and a 50 grain Remington FMJ and filled four 1 gallon jugs with water and placed them back to back in line. The shot was from 6 yards away. I was hoping that the .25 would go through two if I was lucky. Nope, all four jugs and the bullet kept right on going. It was not recovered.

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Vaya con Dios

I see the caps are still on the jugs which indicates a weak pressure spike. try this test again with a 22 LR .. the spike usually takes the caps off

I feel better now.
Just the other day, I had an altercation with a milk jug. I let it go with a good beating, but if Ida had my pistol.......

Seriously, if possible, always get European ammo for the 25. Sellier & Bellot used to offer it. NOTICEABLY hotter.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I'm doing some research on the .25 ACP for an article I am hoping to put together, and I am finding out some very interesting facts. I have always found it hard to believe that this cartridge can have such a negative history, but it has been in production for over 100 years. One of the reasons the .25 has gotten such a bad reputation, is some of the ****** guns made for it. The other is that the .25 was never meant to be a primary defense gun, it was always meant to be a back up or pocket gun. There have been a couple of cases that really showed that the .25, while certainly no dedicated manstopper, is also better than nothing. One was the killing of Prince Ali Kamel Fahmy Bey, an Egyptian who was shot three times with a Browning .25 by his wife, Madam Marie-Marguerite Fahmy. Fahmy dropped right where he stood. It seems the Prince was quite abusive towards his wife, and when he came for her, she was ready.
Another case was the celebrated Hooded Man Case where a British Police Inspector surprised a burglar and was struck with a single slug from a .25 ACP. The Inspector never stood a chance. So the .25 is certainly not on par with the .380 and certainly not even close to the 9mm, but it certainly has some intersting history behind it too, and its beginning to look as though it might not be the weakling on paper that it has been advertised to be. For a back up gun, for what it was intended to be, the .25 might not be all that bad.

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Vaya con Dios

.25 ACP ballistic test:

FIRE...ouch...TEST COMPLETED

Don't really understand why you would even consider carrying a .25 for self defense when in the same sized package you could get a .380 (which IMHO is still under powered for self defense work), but a noticeable improvement. If a .25 is the only gun you own and could not afford to purchase a more powerful weapon, than I suppose it is better than a knife.

I know there have been lots of people killed with .22's & .25's, but the idea behind a defense gun is to stop the threat as soon as possible, not have the perp. simply die hours later after he has inflicted bodily harm on you.

I own .22, .25, .32 & .380 caliber guns, but NEVER use them for self defense work. My gun of choice is either a Model 65 .357 or a Model 60 stoked with Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. +P ammo.

As Handejector states, when is the last time you were threatened by water filled milk jugs?

I just don't think you could get a .380 ACP in a package the size of this Colt .25 ACP.

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- Change it back -

Check out a 'Seecamp'. I'm not a .25 basher though. The reason so many 'experts' say a .22LR is more powerful is because they are looking at Mfg.'s published performance data for the .22LR . Which is of course intened for rifles.

If the .25ACP was so inferior to a .22, I doubt JMB would have bothered with it.

For those who quote Col. Cooper so freely, I think he also said. "A .25 in your pocket is more powerful then a .357, in your gun safe."

I always liked what Col. Jeff Cooper said about the .25. If you shoot someone with a .25 and he finds out about it he is really going to be mad at you.

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Mike
USMCR 84-87, USAF 87-07

This is the most oft quoted remark I hear about the .25 ACP... also the most ignorant and ill conceived.

If anyone would care to let me 'surprise' someone in either the neck, throat or face with my .25, simply sign a notarized waiver and I'll hand load some hot Bryce McGillvray loads to 'energize' your afternoon! (If you survive, you must decline prosecution at ANYTIME, regardless of circumstance!)

Any takers?

Scott

I remember years ago hearing a story about a man shot in the face with a .25acp. The round stopped after going thru the skin and getting to the cheekbone. He was supposed to have pulled it out with his fingers.

He probably was mad too.

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Shoot fast & live long
Warren

if you point a 25 at me i would still go the other way. they are better than notheing.

Yes, they are better than nothing, but an ideal carry piece is supposed to be something you have confidence in and will most likely get the job done fast. If you have a choice in life, make the best decision that you can afford. It may one day save your life!

When I was going to Vietnam, I told my dad, a WWII Combat Veteran of what I planned to do. He said,
"Don't buy a .25 cause,
if you buy it, you might carry it,
and if you carry it, you might get brave and
pull it on someone, and if you pull it on someone,
you might pull the trigger, and if you
pull the trigger it might go off, and if it goes off,
you might accidently hit someone and if you hit someone,
they are going to be real mad and will probably kick your,
butt." Needless to say, I didn't buy a .25, but I did pick up
a nice GP35 in Fayettville and the armorers on Smoke Bomb Hill parkarized it for me. Gave it to my dad, before I left for Vietnam. I picked up another pistol in Nha Trang when I got in country. I have a .25acp now that I was given by a friend's widow when he passed away. Safe Queen.

Rule 303

I was pleased to hear that you are doing an article on the .25 ACP. Most gun writers dismiss it with a sneer and probably without ever firing a single shot. Granted it isn't the most powerful round, but the rimless design and round nose jacketed bullet make it feed great in tiny semi autos that frequently balk when chambered for the .22 rimfire. I have a Beretta 950 Jetfire that is totally reliable and surprisingly accurate. Being shot with a .25 ACP in a vital spot can kill a perpetrator just as dead as a .44 Magnum.

I'm not going to volunteer to be shot with one.

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Common sense isn't so common.

NOR WOULD I, BUT I WOULD WANT TO BE SHOT EVEN LESS WITH A .357 MAGNUM.

Like I said, test some Euro ammo.
I shot a 55 gal drum with W-W 25 ACP. It punched a large 3/8-1/2" hole in one side, and only dented the other! Turned out the slup was lead with the Lubaloy jacket, which is really just thin copper plating.
The same day, I shot some of the early S&B that had the nickel plated STEEL jackets. BOTH sides of the drum looked they had been punched with a 1/4" punch, barely deformed or rolled inward. The slugs were too deep in a clay bank to dig out by hand.
You would not wear that S&B round home.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

At age 14 I was shot with a 25 out of a Mauser 1910. Total penetration of my left upper arm, luckily not hitting any bone. Was a German mfg bullet, steel jacket. I felt nothing, was hot enough to penetrate quickly and no expansion. I would not want to be shot by one again.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

While I wouldn't want to be shot by one, I remember one newspaper report of a man who was shot 3 times with a 25 ACP by an armed robber. Not one single round penetrated through his leather bombers jacket, his only injury was 3 small welts or bruises. As for the armed robber, he shouldn't have chosen to take on an ex paratrooper, his elbow was completely dislocated when his victim got mad and disarmed him. Probably **** ammo, but still, if it won't go through cowhide I'm not going to carry one.

My first CCW course was conduced by members of the local sheriff's department. They said the last 12 shooting death cases handled by the country coroner were done with 25s.

A good friend of mine with the OKC police dept. was killed many years ago, 1 shot from a .25 that went into the side and punched right through to his heart. With all due respect to Cooper, make fun of the .25 at your own peril.

There are times when it is almost impossible to carry a real gun. If someone is attacked and don't have any kind of gun later on if the law does catch them several of their cohorts will give him an alibi and the law will turn him loose. If the person that is attacked has any kind of a gun no matter how small and can get a bullet in the attacker (maybe stomach or intestines) he will go to the hospital and there will be no doubt that he was the attacker. Larry

My purple fanny pack has a Para P-13 .45 loaded with alternating Silver Tips and Black Talons. Who says variety doesn't work.

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S&WHF 366

Here's a bit of interesting history, dreadful, concerning Blokhin the executioner and the .25acp....


Vasili Blokhin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will say once again, but in a different way............I think that some people responding here are confusing killing power with stopping power. Yes, no doubt that a .25 is able to end someone's life; but that is NOT THE PURPOSE of shooting someone. The purpose is to stop them from doing harm as fast as possible. This is much easier to achieve with a more powerful round that has a lot more shocking power.

We can argue all day long about the "killing power" of a certain caliber. A person who is unarmed and is shot in the back of the head at point blank range will most likely die............but how many criminals are going to "pose" for you so you can do that to them. Let's talk about reality. The more mass, weight and speed a bullet has, the more likely it is to stop someone in a timely fashion. For me (personally) I would not consider carrying less than a 38 special +p, and that is by no means the most optimum round, just a minimum (at least for me).

If the only gun I had was a .25, and I could not afford to upgrade, then yes I would find the best and most reliable ammo, and practice as much with it as I could. I would however do my best to upgrade as quickly as possible.

Regards,
chief38

We all know the 2.5 ACP is tiny and has an indifferent reputation. Still, interesting to have the discussion, including reference to stronger versions/loadings.

It's is sort of the reverse of discussing 500 S&W, when folks might say we don't need such a strong cartridge. Nonetheless, they both invite our study.

Thanks for the insights.

Regards,

Dyson

We gotcha!
That's why I carry a backup- Beretta 950 in 22 Short.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

.22 Short to the left tear duct will fix you right up.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Kinda wish I hadn't read it, but ... like the train wreck, hard to look away.

A special place in hell awaits ...

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Don't need no stinkin' sigline

A friend of mine, i'll call him Charlie, because thats his name, was caught carrying a 25 auto by some of the gun shop crowd. Every one gave him a good razing, but Charlie felt confident as he had it stoked with the newer "PowerBall" rounds. They have a plastic ballistic tip.
So I conned Charlie to give me a few round to test. I tryed the same test as you did Dave, both with liquid water and ice filled jugs. Never got the bullets to expand. They just dont go fast enough.

I don't hate the .25 or the .22 for that matter,I just accept they are both of rather limited use for defense.

To me I list both as "deep concealment,contact range" weapons i.e. you'll have to actually put the gun against your attacker for it to be of any use,face it even a weak 50 odd gr. FMJ with sixty odd foot lbs of muzzle energy is going to have a desired effect at ranges of a few feet.

If you get it in your head that you can deploy ether at five or ten yards like a reg gun you need to get some help.

"He reportedly sank into alcoholism, went insane, and died in February 1955 with the official cause of death listed as "suicide".

What a tragic ending.

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too TOO young!!

Please note the rolleyes. If you read the article, you will see that the quote is the only upbeat part.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Fascinating link, thanks!

Very apropos to the conversation, 7000 in 28 days. Amazing.

Terry

Yes, base of the skull even .22 short will do.

When the world was young(circa 1800), gun and ammunition designers started experimenting to see what could be done, and what could be done successfully. By the time we get around to JMB, there had accumulated sufficient data to guess accurately what to expect from various combinations of bullet design, weight, and velocity. From this data we saw the development of the whole line of ACPs: the .25, the .32, the .380, the .38, and the .45. They were designed, along with the arms to use them, to fulfill specific needs, real or imagined, of the gun buying public. They all succeeded to some extent as proven by their continued production and development even to this day. None of them is sufficient to every purpose, but they all fulfill some purpose.

Just don't expect to see me carrying anything less than a .45.

Correct. I am pretty sure the development of specific .22 subsonic ammo (not match ammo which is also subsonic) was tied to the introduction of the internally suppressed CIA assasination Hi-Standard .22. One of my collector friends has one in his collection, including a supply of the rubber O-rings used in the barrel. That was around the time (60's) the firearm was developed.

I went to back to back funerals for two cops killed with a single round of .25 ACP each. One was a guy I knew a little bit - my partner's former partner. The other was a young guy I didn't know at all, but I wound up doing the paperwork for his Public Safety Officers Benefits (PSOB). They were killed 24 hours apart. I got my fill of kids crying for Daddy that day.

One was hit once above his vest on a drug raid. He died at the hospital, and his murderer died in a hail of return gunfire.

The other was shot while answering a prowler call. He didn't have a vest. The department didn't provide them, and he was saving some of his meager salary each week to buy his own, but he had five kids to take care of. The guy who killed him was some kind of nutcase paranoid schizo.

Anything that's going to push a piece of metal into your vital organs can kill you quite handily. There are better things to carry, but a .25 will get the job done.

Detective Joseph C. Thomas, New Orleans Police Department

Police Officer Chris D. McCormick Sr., New Orleans Police Department.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Those policemen must have just died of fright. All the 'experts' know a .25 won't STOP anyone.

My youngest son was robbed and shot in the back 3 times with a .25 ACP when he lived in Albequerque, New Mexico. He spent a month in a coma in ICU. I'm just glad it was a .25 and not anything bigger. He was supposed to survive, as he has given me my only grandchild. -Ed.

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Shoot the CPU, not the monitor

I've done some really amatuer penetration tests with a number of handgun cartridges.

The .25 auto can penetrate a substantial number of sheets of auto sheet metal! Like up to three plus interior door panels.

These crude tests done on a derilect 72 Dodge full size sedan on one of my fathers farms.

Shooting into one door, the bullet(if it didn't hit any door/window mechanism) would pass completely through the first door(2 layers of sheet metal, and interior plastic), and end up inside the other door after penetrating another interior plastic panel and a third layer of sheet metal. Would leave a dent on the exterior of the fourth layer of door steel.

I didn't shoot any auto glass in my experments.

Truthfully.....9mm, .38 Special and .45ACP were better 'car penetrators', but not all that consistant on blasting through both auto doors. The .22LR from a longer barreled pistol than the .25acp, was worse than the .25 auto. .22LR from a rifle was better than the .25acp. The mighty .32acp was at least as good as the bigger 9mm, .38, and .45 bullets. All ammo used was ball except the .38 and .22 ammo.

I really wasn't impressed with any of the bigger calibers, and only impressed by the .25 because it preformed so well comparitive to the bigger bullets.

I was shot in the chest with a .25.
It stopped in my sternum.
I have a nice crater where it hit.
My best friend pulled it out with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Sorry, I wouldnt carry a .25.


Jim

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Big bullets leave big holes

Ok, today I took out my .22 Colt Woodsman pistol and four milk jugs filled with water. I never really intended to make the .25 ACP into something that it is not. What I wanted to do was compare it to a .22 lr pistol, which I have heard so many say is superior to the .25 ACP. The .22 passed through two of the jugs and stopped halfway into the third. The round I used was a 36 grain Remington Golden Bullet HP. While some might say that a hotter .22 would offer greater penetration, again I was only using the standard 50 grain FMJ .25 as well. Here is the revovered .22 slug, note that it mushroomed nicely.

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Vaya con Dios

I went to the library this morning to get a newspaper article to answer a question I had when this post was 4 responses long, now it has 3 pages.

This is an excerpt from a hometown newspaper article from April 1984, concerning the murder of our county sheriff ...

" ...Nichols was taken to Washington Co. hospital where he was pronounced dead at 12:10 pm He had been shot three times with a .25 cal revolver (sic).
Washington Co coroner Dan Kelly Jr. has ruled that Nichols died from multiple gunshot wounds. Bullets struck Nichols in the abdomen, neck and top of the shoulder."

I attended his autopsy, a 50gr bullet was recovered from his heart - entrance between the shoulder and collar bone. Another was recovered in the lung that penetrated the side of his neck.

I would read Sigp220.45's post again and regard those who state "if I was shot with one and find out about it.." with the same intelligence of those who do a "Dragnet Flip" to close a revolvers cylinder.

GF

It was a joke! Using the context of Col. Cooper and his love of the .45 the .25 doesn't add up.

No one wants to get shot with a .25 or anything else for that matter. Is there better self defense rounds of course, is a .25 deadly of course. Is the .25 just about useless if there is something better to be used, of course. Is a .25 better than a pointed stick, of course.

As stated in other posts the purpose of a self defense load is to stop the threat. Is the .25 suited for that? NO, that is why you don't see LEO or the Military using the .25 as their primary weapon.

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Mike
USMCR 84-87, USAF 87-07

The relevant question is...where you in the process of commiting an assault on someone, and if so, did the round STOP you?

Frankly, I've heard enough from all the experts on the failings of the .25 ACP to make me puke. Just like all the "this is better than that" and "so and so said so, so it's got to be true, even though he's never been in a gunfight in his life" garbage that has been translated from gun rags to internet facts.

I'm in the middle of loading some .25 auto ammo anyway.

Thanks for the thread David, for what it's worth, I'd take the .25 over the .22 any day.

Does anyone have a comparison of .25 and .22 from similar length barrels? Chrono'd speeds of a .22 from a 2.5 inch barrel?

It would be interesting to see how the two stack up.