Fixed it for ya.

But I digress.

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Sure you did

Well, I saw it happen, AD on a 700, in 1974, when safety was moved to "Fire" position. Numerous attempts to duplicate AD unsucessful. But it DID happen.
I have found exploded diagram of trigger group. Can any of the gunsmiths out there tell me HOW the trigger mechanism works?
i.e., which part holds the firing pin to the rear, and how is it released?
Don't bother with simplistic nonsense like "pull the trigger, stupid!"
And also, what / how does the safety work?
Thanks in advance for your kind and generous helpfulness...
Trigtechr

Well, this thread has changed my mind, cowart. Most compelling were the words of the designer himself. I guess I've placed too much faith in Big Green. It is very disappointing that an icon of the American firearms industry would permit the sale of so many rifles with a potential or actual safety problem when they apparently knew about the situation from the beginning.

I've loved the 700. I guess, if I ever own another, the first thing will be a trip to the gunsmith to replace the factory trigger with one that does not have these problems.

Having said that, this entire story has once again served to emphasize what we try to teach every new shooter -- mechanical devices fail, and the only real safety on any firearm is the one between the shooter's ears. Never chamber a round until you are ready to shoot, always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and always treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

Very disappointing.


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

The problem appears to be with the "trigger connector", part #47 here:
http://stevespages.com/ipb-remington-700.html

It's not actually attached to anything, and can get out of alignment, causing the problem. Some details can be read at
Hunting and Shooting - Remington Model 700 Rifle - Friend or Foe?

'According to an internal Remington memo, the actual sequence required to make a gun malfunction, or "trick," is to place the safety between the "safe" and "fire" positions, pull the trigger, and then place the safety in the "fire" position - which causes affected guns to fire.'

Trig,

The problem is, according to the designer, the old, original 700s technically DON'T have a safety.

Seriously...

That's according to the 700's designer, Mike Walker -- who tried to get the mechanism renamed to something akin to "fire interupter" because it wasn't a trigger block.

Walker immediately designed a "fix" with a full trigger block -- which Big Green rejected -- even though Remington acknowledged it was superior.

Remington has since offered a device like Walker's and calls it something like the "XM-Pro" or such, which is a true trigger block. But they still have the original design.

You might Google an exploded view of the 700's firing mechanism to see how it works.

But CNBC showed the trigger connector as a small bar best described as "balanced" on the trigger actuator -- with no real trigger block.

That's why any jolt can potentially nudge it out of place. Dirt, debris, maybe even temperature changes might affect the little bar and play a role in "inadvertent discharges" (as it's technically not "accidental").

What??????????????????

There may be a typo in here...

If you pull the trigger, the gun's SUPPOSED to fire...

Maybe you meant pull the bolt....

Or maybe you meant that the shooter pulled the trigger with the gun on "safe" -- then moved it to fire and it discharged without pulling the trigger again....

That's the first I've heard of this type of discharge you're describing.

At any rate, I won't own an old style Remington 700 without the safety/trigger block modification.

I have a benchrest rifle and an F-class rifle, both with Remington style triggers and no safety what so ever. Both are perfectly safe, as used. However, neither one gets carried loaded and are only loaded and fired on command.

Remington has had an off and on again problem with there triggers and ADs for decades now. Something like 1% of their rifles will fire when opening or closing the bolt with the safety on. This is from Remington themselves. They have usually settled the lawsuits and kept things quite.

I'm not describing or typing anything - this was a copy and paste from an internal Remington document that was not intended for public perusal. See post #55 above

This all still goes back to safe gun handling, which obviously isn't being practiced when someone catches a bullet by accident.

When I first heard about this show airing, I figured it was going to be a hatchet job, after viewing it I have still have that opinion. I also think 99.875% of all trial lawyers are leeches, scum of the earth and we'd be better off if there was a bounty on their ilk. That said, for those of you who don't know much about Mike Walker, he is an icon and I take to put a lot of stock in what he said, although I'd LOVE to see the unedited video of the interview with him. I'm sure we all know what these asshat reporters can do in the editing booth. However, it sure sounds like the problem was pointed out early on and Remington did nothing about it, but again, it all comes back to safe gun handling.

While watching the show my wife asked me if I have any 700's. I told her I did, I have a number of them, even though I'm more of a M70 guy and have a lot more of those. She then asked me if that had ever happened to me, I told her no, but added that on a couple of them it would be impossible as they do not have safety's. The horror, a rifle without a safety!!!!

If Remington survives this it will be a miracle. The tort lawyers will go after them with both barrels. The testimony of the original designer won't help them a whit. If it is true that the "problem" could have been fixed for about 5 cents, Remington will be on the hot seat. I see "class action" lawsuits coming, and it won't be long. Hope it does not happen - will always have a special place in my heart for Remington. I've owned my share, and never had a problem.

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Martin Co,FLA(finally made it)

I have had 2, and still have a BDL 7mm Mag since 1976, had no problem with either, but if anyone has a early 70's BDL Varmint heavy barrel in .243 that they might be scared of I would buy it from you. Jeff

I purchased a 700 BDL in .300 WinMag in 1970. One day about 1984 as I was cleaning the rifle, I put the bolt back in and I was checking the safety. With the bolt cocked and when I took the safety off, the firing pin tripped on an empty chamber. I tried it several more times and it dry fired several more times in the same fashion. I never tried this with a live round in the chamber. I took the rifle to a gun shop for repair and they sent it off to Remington. Remington replaced the trigger mechanism and sent it back in about 7-10 days. Shipping and repair was done free of charge to me. The rifle has been fine ever since.

I also have a 700 Police in .308 Win. that I bought about 6-7 years ago. This is my long range piece and I have never had a problem with it. During a shooting session on the firing line, the safety goes on and off by me many times....so far, so good.

I saw the news piece and this does not look good for Remington.

I dont post here much, when I do its most in jest and by no means anyharm intended! I am 56 yrs old and Remington and Smith & Wesson are and will always been in my blood. At the present my Remmys have 2 o/z and thats right 2 o/z triggers ........I am a "Bench Rest" shooter. I feel the show was misleading as the factory trigger pull is 5 POUNDS or more? Remington as Smith are the last of the true AMERICAN firearms........this is sad, Ernie

A fondness for Remington 700's, good gun handling habits and all that aside, the design is clearly faulty. Remington knew about it early in the production of the product. They didn't fix it.

They bear a lot of responsibility in this matter. Rifles should not discharge when you simply chamber a round properly.

Just because we are gun owners doesn't mean we should hold Remington blameless in this.

Automobiles have a fault, they are in wrecks

Since the show did not mention trigger pull weights, could you please explain what you mean?

(the problem discussed in the show is that aparently some rifles will sometimes discharge without touching the trigger, when the safety is moved to off)

What I meant about trigger pull is simple, The factory setting is very heavy. Alot of people adjust their trigger for a better,lighter and cleaner pull. I have done this myself on every remington I own. The problem is lots of people also do this and DONT HAVE A CLUE to what they are doing. In the news thing it shows law enforcement and snipers shooting, In real life I bet their rifles have had trigger adjustments done but who knows if they where done right?

WARNING: This firearm may randomly discharge while in the act of changing the setting from "Safe" to "Fire". Your finger need not be anywhere near the trigger for this action to take place. We at Remington have no idea when or if this may happen. Newcomers and seasoned gun owners alike have reported this issue for decades but as the statistics indicate this happens with approximately one in a thousand units, the odds are that you are okay. Remington accepts no responsibility with this supposed "issue" as we have reason to believe you will not kill anyone if you follow all safety precautions, including but not limited to (1) point the gun at the ground, (2) Or straight up in the air, (3) Or a different yet safe direction. (4) Or maybe throw it waa-aay up high ...

That is what Remingtons internal memo described.
Rem decided by their own observations and calculations that it effected 1% of the then approx 2Mil rifles out there that had the trigger.
The memo put forth a conclusion that it was not in Remingtons best interest to recall the 20K rifles to fix the problem.

The full original memo was posted on another site, but has since been pulled. Perhaps it's up somewhere else.


Found a copy of the memo:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/meeting.pdf

My Remington 700 in .308 never fired by itself, in fact I think it is a rather safe rifle and it never gave me a problem.

I don't post very often--and all of these posts sort of address this circumstance from every direction----however i would like to mention a couple of things--Remington should fix their rifles--------a hunter--back in the 80's mentioned to me that he cleaned his remington hunting rifle well [including separating the action and stock]--- after hunting season--and when the next year's hunt season came around--he got the piece out of the gun cabinet--made certain the rifle was completely safe--[unloaded and nothing in the chamber]--and recleaned the rifle including removing the barrel and action from the stock--reassembly and then safely working the action time and again-along with dry fireing--20-30 times--never has he had a problem-------he claimed useing the wrong lubrication--{he doesn't use wd40-says he thinks wd40 goes dry and sticky over time--said he uses G96}----I use Rem oil--but a good reclean and 20-30 dry fires--[done safely] makes sense to me--finally---in our hunting group--and we hunt with horses-------------nobody----------and I mean NO DARN BODY---------GOES ANYWHERE--on a horse-- with a rifle in the saddle scabbard-------loaded---------there can be bullets in the magazine--but the chamber is emptied before the rifle goes back in the rifle scabbard----and it doesn't make any difference what make --caliber or manufacturer ---loaded rifles are not in rifle scabbards in our group----------PERIOD---------------if our group were 30 miles back in the Bob Marshall wilderness---when we load up to go back out to the trail-head and to the horse trailer----there will not be one rifle in a scabbard -------loaded---- on a horse-period....if the parents used our safety rule-and unloaded that rifle before they mounted up to return to the trailer--possibly there would have been nothing to obstruct her view----it is a tragedy--they have my prayers-------lln

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"Class Tells"

Perhaps to you. The child was killed partly because the known-to-be-loaded weapon was pointed at the child. Had a non-family member had the loaded weapon pointed at him and been killed, prison would certainly be something to at least consider.

Certainly Remington did a wrong thing in this case, and prison time isn't out of the question (in my mind) for some of them, but the one with the rifle in her hands controlled the direction of the muzzle. Maybe there wasn't any really good direction, but it should be obvious, especially now, that there were better ones than the one she chose.

Once again, the topic under discussion and in the news item has nothing to do with the triggers. Some of the rifles will aparently sometimes fire when the safety is manipulated, without the trigger being touched.

Exactly. The 721-700 type trigger when properly adjusted and maintained, is extremely safe. However if the safe is released while pressing the trigger, it will fire, boom if loaded. I have been intimate with 721, 722, 725 triggers in my rifles for over 40 years. Benchrest shooting and hunting mostly. You cannot put too short of a sear engagement in the adjustment. Nor make it to light. Yes the design could be better as the trigger weight and reset function are from the same spring. And I am not sure why they did not make the trigger and sear connector fastened together as one piece . You don't want to put too short of a trigger stop either. You have to let the trigger piece forward enough for the sear to drop clean. All this and regular cleaning, inspection, and proper lube is a must. And don't forget this:
NRA Gun Safety Rules

Hamden,

The designer himself said his own design was unsafe -- and tried since 1948 to get Remington to install a full trigger block -- at 5.5 cents per rifle.

Big Green said it cost too much.

These guns have discharged in court during a law suit -- for Pete's sake!!!!!!

The trigger connector is simply a small bar "balanced" on a sear. The gun fires when that connector moves.

The problem was documented -- as far back as 1948 by the designer himself -- by the time the first 200 guns rolled off the line.

Remington now has more than 5 million -- only a few of which have the full trigger block.

It appears to be an inherently dangerous, flawed design -- that sometimes fires when it shouldn't.

No gun should fire -- except when the trigger is pulled -- and no amount of safe handling practices changes that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect that if you'd had a few go off when you worked the bolt -- without ever touching the trigger -- you'd be singing a different tune.

Gun safeties ought to work -- all the time.

Gun safety rules are MERELY the realization that inadvertent discharges do happen -- and must be expected always.

But the design needs to be safe -- WHILE the shooter practices safe handling.

If the report is true, Remington engaged in a massive, foolish cover up.

I agree with the designer when he was asked what was behind Remington's refusal to fix the design.

Walker simply said, "Stupidity."

That pretty well sums it up.

While most firearms manufacturers and firearms related companies are responsive to complaints, there are some who remain aloof. Glock is one of those companies IMHO, and now it would seem that Remington joins that small list. Remington has made poorly primed .22 ammo for decades and refuses to acknowledge any problems with it. They know that they can sell millions of rounds of .22 ammo that has a 2-5% failure to fire rate and keep selling it without addressing the complaints. A lot of folks have blind loyalty to firearms companies. These same folks wouldn't accept for a minute buying a case of beer, for example, and having one bottle that had gone "flat". Remington should address the problems with it's products. One poster stated that there has been a recall on the 700's for nearly a decade. That my friend is one lame defense, as the original faulty design has been around since 1948. Some of you shamefully propose that the woman who shot her son should be criminally charged for the accident involving her son's death. There is no doubt that she contributed to the death due to some negligence, but doesn't Remington shoulder a part of that responsibility? Accidents are a chain of events. If one link of the chain is broken, the accident won't occur. I really don't relish the closure of an icon like Remington, but if it happens, it will be by their own mismanagement. I agree with the one retired Remington employee who said that Remington isn't calloused, they are simply stupid. Apparently they have been run by management professionals who have little understanding of gun design and/or the gun business. They are simply corporate heads who make a lot of money making decisions solely regarding business management practices. These type of managers climb the ladder of success, leaving the end-users (customers) on the first floor. Eventually the problems that were never addressed along the way become the "elephant" in the room and the house of cards they built comes tumbling down.

Likewise it happened to me. In my case I was thumbing the safety off w/my trigger finger well away from the trigger. The gun discharged. This was a 700 BDL in 270 Winchester circa 1978.

I sold it and subsequently bought a 700 BDL in 30-06 and never had any issues.

The article earlier alluded to re the woman killing her child happened when she thumbed the safety off her 700 BDL.

It's really important to be aware of where your firearm is pointing at all times. In my case it was pointing at the ground. It sure scattered the leaves.

I too think that the trial lawyers are sniffing around another billion dollar lawsuit. Most of the TV coverage was total anti-gun Latenberg BS and I believe a set up as a prelude to the lawsuit.

Shepard Smith talked about it on Fox and then showed Frank Latenberg pushing his bill in congress to get people on the federal terrorist watch list barred from buying or owning guns. Of course anyone can get put on that list by accident. Just another anti-gun rant.

But I will not take any chances and will sure be more vigilant with my Remington 700 SPS in 30-06. I never sweep anyone with a gun barrel but have seen many do it often, even experienced hunters.

I would like to see an independent engineering lab test the Remington 700's to see if their is any validity to the claim. If their is then we need an immediate recall of the products involved.

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NRA Benefactor Member

I for one think that if someone is on the Federal Terrorist Watch List, they should not be able to buy guns.

I haven't read through this thread so please pardon what has likely already been answered somewhere here.

I have on order for over a month a 700 sps tactical aac-sd. Does this issue include new rifles, and is this issue why it's taking so long to get the rifle?

Your rifle should have the three position safety. Whether that makes it totally safe, I don't know.

A friends .25-06 700V went off in my truck when he flipped the safety to unload it. But he HAD tried to adjust the trigger, so we attributed the AD to that. Maybe it wasn't.

It killed my truck deader than hell and put us on foot.

The only good thing that came out of it was that I learned a new rule, the hard way, that you never EVER put a gun with a closed bolt in my truck.

First things first. If I had ANY firearm that went off without me pulling the trigger it would only be once-that gun would be GONE!
Second. Remington is in deep ....mud. If what was said is true that A.) the problem was identified and the fix ignored and B.) they decided it wouldn't be cost effective to recall just a batch, then not only will they take a hit civilly, but perhaps criminally as well. Do y'all remember the Pinto? Do you remember the internal memo where they decided it would be cheaper to pay the dead people's families off rather than recall all the Pinto's. This ain't gonna be pretty.
Good thing I already have an 870 and a 11-87 and all my centerfire rifles are Rugers and Model 94's

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Forum consigliere

i have had 7 or 8 700 remingtons, never went off, now i do know the older ones you had too take off the safty to open the bolt, and the newer ones have some kind of lock on the bolt

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

Personaly, I think I will buy a couple of remingtons to put in the safe. I have 3 at the moment but they are competion rifles. It does look like remington will have more Lawyer locks just as Smith does

Charlie told me last night he used to have one maybe 20 years ago. He was showing it to his uncle, empty, and closed the bolt. A second later, he heard "click". The uncle, horrified, said, "Why'd you do that? If there was a bullet in there, it would've gone off!" Charlie said, "I didn't!" The trigger indeed went off by itself. Fortunately it was pointed at the ground and was empty too. But frightening all the same.

The gun went back to the gunshop for the gunsmith to fix.

So this memo instills trust, product safety, and genuine concern for quality from remington huh?

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/meeting.pdf

The subcommitte decided against a recall due to the following reasons:

1. "The recall would have to gather 2,000,000 guns just to find the 20,000 that are susceptible"

2. "An attempt to recall all bolt action rifles would undercut the message we plan to communicate to the public concerning gun safety."

This is why it disgusts me that others would put all blame on the family for a discharge.(purposely dont use ND because the trigger was never pulled)

So many are willing to blame the Mother and regurgitate gun safety and so few mention remington's creation of this incident in the first place.

So my sarcasm in earlier post was correct,

http://smith-wessonforum.com/newrepl...ly&p=135664951

"Or better yet, what if a company can just put out a EULA or statement in new gun packaging.
"safety is intended as cosmetic attribute only" We accept no responsibility for its failure or unexpected discharge of firearm"




Let me ask you guys a question then:

A. How many personnel here keep their security wep loaded. (I do)
B. Where is the muzzle pointed when you take it out?
C. How many people have neighbors to the left, right, upstairs, or downstairs.
**If your weapon discharges unintended and kills your neighbor (due to a know flaw) it doesnt matter, YOU BROKE THE GOLDEN RULES,**

-Are the golden rules are being "lawyerized" by personnel here to assist the beloved remington action?
-Although the design has been updated since 70s, Why are we defending a known flaw fellas?

Is the "fix" posted anywhere here or on the net?

If it is only a couple bucks to eliminate the possibility of an accident, why would anyone stand around waiting for a recall?

All my bolt guns are Mausers, they absolutely do not have this problem.

You are correct - it was definitely not a negligent discharge, but it was just as clearly mistaken pointing, and probably negligent, as well.

The mother and Remington were both at fault.
my security weapon is not a longarm with some rinky-dink excuse for a safety. See my earlier post regarding a friend who ignored the wisdom of his elders.ALMOST always in a safe direction, but my security weapon is a weapon with a real safety system, not some piece-of-**** longarm with no real safety. I do, except upstairs. I am quite conscious of them, and I know very well that many of my handguns can put a bullet through several walls. I act accordingly.Perhaps. I don't defend them at all. Unfortunately, as sad as it is, the mother was also partly to blame, and possibly whoever failed to educate her properly (weak argument - she may not even have known that her son was on the other side).

Most longarm safeties have long been a joke. Obviously, the Remington situation was even worse, but most rifles are an accident waiting to happen, unless they are handled in very specific ways in accordance with the American rules and traditions of safe gun handling, which have evolved from a hunting tradition. They are not suitable first-response security tools, and should not be handled thus except when the danger of the threat outweighs the danger of sloppy handling.

Sorry for the length of this response. You and I, Bucky, obviously agree on far more than we disagree on.

Something called a "Remington Defective Trigger Attorney" now exists.

Here's his link to the world:

Defective Remington 700 Rifles Pose Dangerous Risk to Consumers | Defective Trigger Attorney | 710 Model Injury Lawsuit

My understanding is, a competent gunsmith can make the "fix" for about $12.

My understanding also is, Remington HAS NOT recalled these rifles -- but has repaired them on a piecemeal basis as requested by customers.

I'm not sure, but I've seen where the cost is $75-100 if Remington does it.

(That figure may or may not reflect the company's cost per rifle for a general recall -- which would logically include personnel time to inspect the rifles and do the repair. It would seem cheaper just to have the "fix" done -- and get it over with.)

Here's a recall notice -- of sorts:

Remington 700 recall notice

Problem would be:

Remington would then just blame any malfunctions on the gunsmith that performed the "fix"

They already blamed "lightening of the trigger, not following golden rules, misleading expert, and improper maintanance as the culprit.

I believe remington is following a mud smearing campaign against anyone invloved. Text book from our politicians (both sides)
"Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations"

This law firm says it's not anti-gun -- just anti-defective gun...

These two links are fairly detailed summaries of the problem and its history.

http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf

Remington Model 600 | 700 Lawsuit - Riff & Associates, PC

Was looking through local paper's website and ran across story regarding possible issues with Remington 700. Thought I'd pass it along. Portland police drop rifles amid safety concerns | The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram Could be just more anti-gun journalism, but figured it was worth the read.

Well of course I have one of the older 700"s with the bolt lock.

Its a "safety Modification" not a recall, that way they do not have to pay.

I called Remington and to have it changed out it costs:

$20 to do the work

$17 return shipping

Plus whatever it costs to ship it there.

So lets round it off to $60.

Is it worth having it done is the Question????

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Still Running Against the Wind

Hi, Steve here . My Direct TV Guide shows it on at 8:PM ET

I had a 270 700 BDL discharge when I thumbed off the safety. I sold it. I bought a 30-06 700 BDL and took it to a cerified gunsmith for the upgrade. He charged $20.

To me, even the possibility of a defective firearm makes an investment of $20 or $37 a bargain at twice the price to have it corrected.

Yes, if I can it corrected for even $50 by a local Smith I would do that. I wrote Remington a scathing letter (in a nice way). Will see what results from that.

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Still Running Against the Wind

That does not always work. See Ford Explorer and Bridgestone tyres. To my mind, no jury could ever have found fault with Bridgestone once the letter to Ford on inflation pressure was revealed, but they did. The original designer has stamped Remington's head under the mud already, so I say it's a done deal and will probably never see a court room.

It's interesting how some dangerous attributes of certain milsurp firearms are just accepted as quirks. For example, the decocker on the CZ52 pistol can become a thub operated trigger, and Mauser 93s can go if you touch the trigger while closing the bolt. Both issues require wear to be present, and in each case careful handling is all that is required.

Simple answer?

Yes -- and immediately!!!!!!!!!!