CNBC had a full page add in today's Wall Street Journal about a story on the Remington 700 and Remington's problems with it that is suppose to air tonight at 9:00pm ET. Does anyone know anything about this? I guess we'll all get to find out tonight. I own one Remington 700 but it's an older model 270 left hand from the 70's. I've always wanted to buy another in 308 for longer range shooting so I'm interested in what this is all about. It's unusual to see investigative gun stories on any news network.

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*** Made in Texas ***

Yes, it's about the Model 700 firing when it's not supposed to. There was a 9 year old kid killed 10 years ago when his mother went to unload the thing. Also, the U S Army has videotaped the rifle going off with the finger out of the trigger guard. Should be interesting.

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jj

I noticed that no other news outlet was even reporting anything about it. Could be the ultra liberal and gun hating NBC trying to give legs to the law suit that has been pending for sometime .................. You can go to the Remington website and see their rebuttal:Remington (check the videos on the right side of the page).


Here is Remingtons response to their vendors and customers about NBC's allegations: http://rem.brandednews.com/pdf/Remin...or_Release.pdf

Don

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Laus Deo! <><

It was on the NBC Evening News with Brian Williams.
I had never heard anything about it, but they made it sound like a widespread problem that happens all the time.

I find it difficult to believe that there is any design defect in the Model 700. I've owned two -- one in .30-06, and one in .220 Swift, both VSSF models. Superbly accurate long range rifles, and nary a problem with any ADs at any time. It would seem to me that if there is a problem with the trigger mechanism, the AMU or the Marine's WTB would have picked up on it.

And what about all the police agencies out there using the 700 in its PSS configuration? This all has the smell of boooooogggggggguuuuuussssss sensationalized *******.


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

I am with you Bullseye,

I have owned a 700 BDL in 6.5 Mag every since they came out. Have lighten the trigger up and shot a lot of rounds with cast and full Mag loads and never a AD. I don't believe that the rifle just goes off by itself.

There is a little lever on the side of the action called a safety.

Is is true that if someone that doesn't know what he is doing tries to do a "trigger job" (on the old models anyway) he can mess it up so that it can fire when the action is closed or the gun is jostled.

Is that what they are talking about or the "new models" with the lock on the side of the bolt cover or the new trigger group models?

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Lost it all in a boat accident

seen it firsthand. hunting, darkthirty am, get out of truck I load the winchester 70 which will open bolt on safety, brother puts round in remington 3006 and closes the bolt, kboom. fortunately he had it resting on his crotch pointed up or I might not be here today. factory trigger. it was the old rem which wouldnt open or close on safe.

What, pray tell, does that say about two of my Model 700's that have aftermarket triggers and NO SAFETY at all. I'm scared to death now, those damn things might just get up, walk out of the vault and come shoot my wife, the dogs and I........

Just finished watching the program and I read Remington's response.

IMHO....Remington is in a heap of trouble. Lots of documentation of the problem dating back to the 1940's and even an interview with the original designer. Wow.

That said, gun safety can still prevent shooting someone; even if the gun might turn out to be defective. One of the first rules is to never depend on a mechanical safety.

The 700 is an icon. I hope Remington can get through this.

Part of the problem with proving any of many of the claims, is that Jack Belk, the CNBC "expert" could not replicate any of the failures documented in later testing.

I believe all post-2006 Remington 700's, 710's, 40XB's, etc., all have a new trigger mechanism not compatible with earlier models.

It would be interesting to know if there were any "silent" recalls out there.

I'm having a problem with a Rem 700 Varmint in 223 Rem.

But after firing 4,000 rounds at prairie dogs and other critters, something should be worn or out of adjustment.

Well it will be interesting to see how this plays out, to say the least. I watched the CNBC special on the M 700 ( it's actually the first time I have ever watched that channel & only because of this special ) and obviously it was heavily slanted against Remington for obvious reasons, but what we did not hear, was Remington's side of the story. When they interviewed Mike Walker who is the inventor of that particular trigger mechanism, he readily admitted there was a problem with this rifle going back to 1946. That is not going to help Remington any! Why the company never corrected the design is beyond me, especially since Mike Walker drew a schematic of the fix for them back in 1948! According to the program, this fix would have cost Remington 5 1/2 cents per unit, so it really does not make much sense for them to not do anything. They say that for Remington to recall all of the 5 million M 700's and change the mechanisms would cost them more than the net worth of the entire Company! I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out, but one thing is for sure, I doubt Remington will sell too many M 700's for Christmas this year.

chief38

Even a mutli-billion dollar space shuttle fails.

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Sure you did

It's not so much the failure, It's all about a potential cover-up.

I've got a nice Model 700LH (an early left-handed BDL-type variant) that was made in October 1973. It is super-accurate and chambered in .270Win and it has been my main hunting rifle since 1995 or so.

It, of course, has the older two-position safety which requires one to put the gun in "Fire" mode to work the bolt to unload it and such.

Naturally, I never have my finger near the trigger or point any gun in an unsafe direction when unloading it.

That all being said, has my M700 EVER gone off when I carefully wiped off the safety in a proper manner? Only ONCE . . . in 1996. Yes, it happened as I stood next to my truck, working the bolt to unload the rifle after spending a morning in a deer stand.

I've never been able to make the gun go off ever again that way. Could it happen again? Sure . . . anything can happen in this world . . . that's why safe gun handling is imperative with ANY firearm.

It hasn't stopped me from using this as my primary deer rifle, nor will it.

A later M700BDL in 30.06 allows one to operate the bolt to load or unload while the safety is on . . . a BIG improvement . . . but I stick with my tackdriving, lefthanded 700LH.

No, I would not loan it to a novice hunter . . . for this very reason though . . . for some folks don't practice all forms of gun safety in a 100% consistent manner. I do, and I'm fine with it.



Tom

No doubt the lady made a big mistake. And you have to feel for her loss. But I am not sure how she was handling the rifle safely if she shot through both sides of her horse trailer?? That may be a crass thing to say, but it is the truth. Her husband seemed like a very knowledgable gun man. I would bet a dollar to a donut that their was some work done to the trigger on that rifle.

Anything mechanical can fail. I think we all know that.

But that program was very disingenuous. Not one time did they mention that most of the problems would occur if someone tampered with the trigger. And I think that was very bad. But it will not come off that way. They hurt Remington real bad. And they hurt the gun owners rights very bad also.

I do not mind them telling a story. But they should tell the whole truth. They were showing military rifles as if it was a rifle that just came off the Remington assembly line. And we all know that is not the way it is.

Overall I think it was a real bad hack job on a firearms manufacturer. But then what else would you expect?? Tom.

If it's on any of the "news" channels, I really don't think much of it.

However, in the spirit of the program, I will gladly help out anyone that would like to dispose of their 700 to me.

"Andy pays Cash for 700's! Sell your 700's to me for cash now! Highest price paid for 700's!" The top price of $25.00 is given for each 700 in NIB condition. Lesser conditions warrant less.

Disregard that fine print, send me the gun and get your cash!

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Lost it all in a boat accident

I only saw the part from Brian Williams. But NBC will go after any firearm that is vulnerable. For Remington to have known about this for decades, and not fixed it, is reprehensible. It's like Toyota lying about their bad cars.

This issue with Rem. 700 triggers has surfaced from time to time for years. I wouldn't buy one. And I won't buy one because the bolt handle will very likely turn plum/purple after awhile.

I used to frequent a large gun shop, and M-700's in their racks rusted much more easily than other brands, especially on the bolts. I prefer Winchester, Sako, and CZ rifles. Weatherby also seems to have better metallurgy than does a certain brand. I think the difference is the amount of chrome in the formula and the degree of finishing.

This story will damage the firearms industry considerably, probably. I'm sure that it's exaggerated, but this time, there is some truth to NBC's allegations.

T-Star

I've been following this on another forum (Accurate Reloading.Com,,Gunsmithing) for a while and it's been quite a heated back and forth.
Mr. Belk has posted a long disertation about the trigger back on 10/11. Sides have been quickly chosen over it and some of it seems personal. Jack Belk has his enemys over there for reasons I'm not aware of. The announcement that this 'story' would be appearing on MSNBC certainly didn't help those matters.


Link to the discussion over there,,delete if it violates the rules here at all....
Remington-Walker Explanation - Topic Powered by Social Strata

Sounds to me like the pack of trial lawyers is just looking for another class action lawsuit to get rich off of. They just target one industry after another and make millions. They may be done licking their chops on the bones of Toyota and searching for prey.

I have never had a problem with any of my Remington 700 models and believe it to be operator error.

Anyone that sweeps another with the barrel, when the gun in loaded is not well schooled in the fundamentals of gun safety.

Many folks mess with the triggers and adjust them down to the 2 lb range then are shocked to see them pop off when they brush the trigger when loading/unloading their rifles. I suspect operator error in the majority of cases.

Folks just don't want to accept responsibility for their mistakes these days and look for a source of cash when they screw up.

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NRA Benefactor Member

I believe you are correct, when the designer says there was a known issue and he had the five cent fix, yet the company refused to implement the fix. That does not bode well for Remington.

I have heard this story a few times over the years about
Remington 700s firing when the safety was released and always passed it off as negligence. But now after hearing Mr. Walker speak I don't think so.

Ive never really been a 700 guy I did own one for a short time, (no safety issue) I have always preferred Mauser 98s and Winchester M70s, I guess that's my fix for the 700 trigger issue. I just don't buy them.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

I believe the 5.5 cent fix was a real red Herring. They calculated that amount based on the curret total production of 5 million rifles. Rememer, figures don't lie, but liar's figure.

I don't believe very much of it.

No where in the whole hour did they address tampering with the trigger. No where. That alone discounts their entire report IMO. But then if you are biased why would you report any information for the other side?? Tom.

I haven't bought many used guns in my life, but of the ones I bought, it turned out that about half of them had suffered "trigger work" at some point in their lives, and they needed new parts to put them back to proper function.

Out of 5 million rifles, I'd be surprised if there weren't hundreds that would release the firing pin when the safety was snapped off, there is a resident bubba gunsmith in every zip code.

Garands will do it as well as 1911s if parts are worn or tampered with.

This story has been around for a long time. Curious that NBC would resurrect it now, they didn't report any real recent incidents. I remember seeing much of that same footage (presumably on NBC) a number of years ago.

I don't know if it's a problem or not. If it is, then Remington ought to fix it no matter what it costs, even if it is in excess of the net worth of the company. I'm not in favor of picking on firearms manufacturers, but if they have a defective product they need to fix it just like any other producer of consumer-goods would have to, be held to similar standards.

That said, AD accidents resulting in fatalities are invariably at least partly the result of the gun handler allowing the muzzle of a gun to cover something they do not wish to destroy, a serious and sometimes lethal no-no.

They have plenty of money to throw around, we will see what happens!

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On April 12th 2010 Cerberus acquired the private military contractor DynCorp International.







Cerberus Capital Management Acquired Bushmaster Firearms, Inc., from Windham, Maine native Dick Dyke for an undisclosed sum in April 2006, and purchased Remington Arms in April 2007. Under Cerberus direction, Bushmaster Firearms acquired Cobb Manufacturing, a well-respected manufacturer of large-caliber tactical rifles in August 2007. Cerberus also acquired DPMS Panther Arms December 14, 2007. Remington Arms acquired Marlin Firearms in January 2008. In October 2009, Remington Military products acquired silencer manufacturer Advanced Armament Corporation. These companies were combined into the Freedom Group.

My dad has three Remington 700's (one .30-06 and two .458 Win Mag) and never had a problem with any of them. They are all older guns subject to this problem. As he reminded me last night, Remington announced a recall almost a decade ago. It was in all the gun rags he read at the time. He sent his rifles in and Remington performed the fix all at no expense to him - including the shipping both ways. So what is the issue here?

My thoughts:

1. All the tragedy involved in these stories could have been prevented if these people maintained control over the direction of the muzzle.

2. Lawyers are whipping these people up into a frenzy and preying on that emotion to make mucho dinero for themselves.

You fellas have brought up an interesting point regarding the fact that quite a few used guns (both rifles & handguns) some where long the line get their triggers worked over. I have purchased many used guns over the years and it is not uncommon to discover that there has been trigger work done to it - that was not disclosed to me before making he purchase. That is exactly why the first thing I do before I even fire a newly purchased (pre-owned) gun is to completely disassemble the firearm, inspect everything, clean and lubricate as needed, and replace any altered parts. Then I thoroughly test the gun at my work bench (with inert rounds) before taking it out to the range. This has been my standard practice for over 30 years now.

Now, all that said, we have no idea at all if these M700 rifles in question have been "monkeyed" with. I do not know it for a fact, but I would not be surprised if the US Army and Marine Corps sniper teams do customize and lighten the triggers on their weapons. This particular trigger design just might be more susceptible to accidental discharge if it has been lightened or altered. Who knows...................?

The one thing that we do know as gun owners is that for whatever reason, the M700 has had more of these accidents than any other rifle that I am aware of. I have never heard any systemic problems with the Winchester M70, CZ, Weatherby, etc. The copies of the Remington customer complaint letters over the last 60 years is certainly NOT a good sign, and the statements made by Mike Walker about his own design spells TROUBLE for the company. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

Regards,
chief38

Another reason to love my Mauser!

While it looks like proper gun handling may have prevented the tragedy the show focused on, it appears that Remington avoided taking "the bull by the horns" and doing the responsible thing for many decades. That would be installing a better trigger and/or safety mechanism. Having watched the show and seeing how many "gun people" they talked to, including the man who designed the trigger mechanism, I can't say that it was one-sided. It looks like Remington is in hot water and that they put the pot on the stove and turned on the heat.

I bought my first rifle, a Remington 700 ADL in .30-06, in October, 1974. I wanted to deer hunt with friends. The clerk at K-Mart, where I bought it, is a good friend of mine, picked out a perfect one, told me that he had bore-sighted the scope when he mounted it, so it was already "sighted in." I didn't get to shoot it before the opening morning of the hunt. I had studied the owners manual and dry fired it a few times before the hunt.

As were were heading off from the camper, I loaded the magazine and closed the bolt, chambering a round. As the bolt locked up, the rifle went off. My right hand was on the bolt handle, my left holding the rifle by the forearm, nothing at all near the trigger.

To say I was startled would be a great understatement. A friend standing next to me had been idly watching me and had seen me not get near the trigger. After discussing what happened, we worked the action a number of times, without cartridges, to try to repeat what had occurred. Nada. Then, with the muzzle in a safe direction, we worked the bolt with live cartridges, and again, nada. The last attempts involved really slamming the bolt home with great force. Then we banged the butt of the loaded, cocked rifle on the ground, with the safety off. Nothing again.

We went hunting. I carried the rifle chamber empty, magazine full. I didn't get a shot that day or trip.

That fall and winter, I became very interested in shooting the rifle. I was amazed at how far out there I could hit things. Shooting was fun! I shot several hundred rounds by the next spring with no further trouble.

The owners manual showed how to adjust the trigger mechanism for both weight of pull and amount of overtravel. I turned the screws in until I had a smidge over 2 pounds of pull with almost no overtravel. It became easier to shoot precisely with the lighter, crisper trigger.

The initial unintended discharge still bothered me, and solidified my muzzle consciousness and control and finger placement habits.

I bought reloading gear to afford to shoot the rifle more. I had been saving my fired brass. When I began trying to use my handloads I discovered that the rifle had excessive headspace and shipped it back to Remington. By then I had seen another warning notice in hunting and shooting magazines discussing unintended discharges with the Remington 700. When I wrote my letter to Remington explaining the headspace problem, I asked to have the trigger mechanism checked, as it had gone off unintentionally once, adding a clipping about the problem from a shooting and hunting magazine.

When the rifle returned, the head space was fine. The invoice said they had "removed, cleaned and checked" the trigger. They did not seem to have affected the trigger pull's weight or overtravel.

I have since shot that rifle a lot, somewhere between 4,500 and 5,500 rounds over the next five years. I had no further problems. I don't shoot it much any more, but sometimes I do and it has never repeated that first disturbing action.

Through the rest of the 1970's and 1980's, I saw postings by Remington in the outdoor magazines talking about trigger problems with the 700's and a few other models that shared the trigger mechanism. They reminded people of the basic gun handling rules. They asked owners to return the rifles for inspection and to be enhanced with a few modifications. Mine worked, so I didn't, as it wasn't an actual recall, I believed they had made the upgrades in my trigger when I sent it in for the barrel work, so I never did.

I have since owned several other Remington 700's. All have worked fine.

I hope that the rifles that do this can be found and fixed.

All the same, if shooters of these rifles just follow the first three rules of gun safety, they should be just fine:

1- Treat every gun as if it loaded.
2- Never point the muzzle at something you don't intend destroy.
3- Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

I find it interesting that a known shortfall and potential unsafe design flaw would be defended.
People jumped on the Internal Lock hatred and no reported deaths from it. Yet Remington knew about this flaw and was advised from the action's creator about a fix for it but yet Remington didnt fix for years?

I understand that remington has been around for a long time and that a 700 is practically an American Icon, the point is someone died from a weapon going off without pulling the trigger and that there could be video footage from police making this happen. (they were unsafe and didnt follow golden rules?)

If it was a Glock, SKS, or toyota,
Everyone would be in uproars and boycotts.
An American icon should put out a well built, dependable, and most of all properly functioning safe weapon. Dont defend just because its a Remington and we grew up on them.

I personally find Remington's rebuttle on their website trash talk taken out of the play books of politicians these days. My opinion of Remington is taking a crash with their negative Ads and demonizing of anyone involved
-known customer complaints
-video footage showing it happening
-deaths
-designer ackowledged the flaw
-years gone by without a mod/fix
The only way this could be scrubbed is if the reporting, video footage, families, and 1,000s of customer complaints proved a complete lie.
Looks like bottom dollar figures to me.

"well we've made 5million 700's and only had 5000 safety complaints, that's only .1%. Gentlemen, I dont think its worth our time and money to do a safety recall"
" Let's demonize the reporter and put out a good statement on our behalf."
"All in favor?"

Thank you for your post, Buff.

I have a Remington 40X-B. AFAIK, it has the trigger in question. I have not had that malfunction yet, and if I do it will be while the gun is pointed in a safe direction.

Almost all of us try very hard to follow the safety rules at all times, but it should be clear that the standard expected of rifles is simply not the same as what reasonable people expect of handguns.

A good friend of mine is dead because, in a fit of anger, he kicked a loaded .30-30 that was propped up against a wall. He had been warned about having a loaded rifle in the house, but ignored the tradition of his elders and figured that if it wasn't loaded, it wasn't useful. He didn't understand the tradition, and didn't understand what a handgun was for. Strange, because he was smart, and probably owned a handgun or two (he had been a member of a PD in GA).

Remington erred, and the user erred. I really don't care how the case comes out, but I hope that everyone who erred learns from mistakes.

I'm a ferociously pro-gun newspaper reporter -- probably a rarer critter than Big Foot sightings in the Oval Office -- and I have to think that this story has "legs".

The trigger designer himself -- 98-year-old Mike Walker -- was interviewed and said he'd identified the problem in 1948 -- after only 200 guns were produced.

As noted, Walker immediately improved his design to correct the problem -- and the fix would have cost 5.5 cents per rifle back in 1948 -- a pittance compared to the $75 to $100 today.

Ironically, the very same trigger system that given this rifle its legendary reputation for accuracy among some snipers is also what causes the trouble -- that blasted trigger connector.

Right now, I'm glad I've got a Winchester 70 -- with a BOSS-CR on it.

By the way, there's no way to properly handle a loaded rifle that discharges when you touch the bolt to unload the gun -- as there is no "safe" place to point a high-powered rifle -- as one gunsmith noted on the show.

If you point a high-powered rifle into the ground, there's no telling what it might hit -- and where it might riccochet -- if it fires without pulling the trigger. You can't point it at the horizon -- or into the floor.

So HOW do you handle it safely -- IF there's such a design flaw in the rifle?

There IS simply NO safe direction...

If you can't unload it without taking the safety off -- and moving the bolt jiggles the trigger connector, causing a potential accidental discharge -- then just about the only safe place to work the action is pointing the barrel into a 10-foot deep stack of wet newspapers...

(Probably the most damning thing for Big Green was the 700 discharging in the courtroom -- as noted in the CNBC report. Remington's only hope there was proving somebody had tampered with the gun...)

Actually, the show *did* include video footage of this malfunction happening with a military rifle.

I still have the show on my DVR - looks like I may need to watch it again.

I remember when the story first came out, and two or three of us were pracically screaming at the screen over the fact that the coverage made it look like EVERY Remington 700 made. What also got me peeved, was that the Mom was not following one of the basic rules of gun handling, don't point the gun at anything you do not intend to shoot. Yes, it was tragic, but she should share in the negligence too.

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Vaya con Dios

It looks like Remington may be trying to stonewall this - they posted this video:
YouTube - CNBC's Insider never worked with Remington Firearms
trying to discredit Roger James, the guy who handled the customer complaints, by saying he was not involved in designing or producing the guns. That doesn't make much sense to me...

The old recall was to remove the bolt lock, which was a completely separate issue from the unintended discharge problem. Removing the bolt lock allows one to unload the rifle without moving the safety to the "off" position.

Well, the first thing I would say is keep the muzzle pointed straight up in the air. If it did unintentionally discharge the odds of it coming straight back down and hitting you are fairly remote. There has been at least one report in this thread by a forum member whose brother did just that and lo and behold no one was killed. Amazing!

Aren't we all taught that "all guns are loaded all the time and never point any gun at something you don't want to destroy?" So the old man that shot his foot off with his 700 violated both those tenents of safety when he swept the muzzle over his hoof. Sorry but I have no sympathy for him.

Aren't we also taught to "know your target and what lies beyond it?" The woman that carelessly pointed her 700 at the side of her horse trailer and popped her nine year old son standing on the other side sure didn't observe that principle of safety. And she supposedly grew up around firearms. I hate to sound cold about it but she should have been jailed for her negligence. She'll have to live with the consequences of her actions forever - and maybe that is punishment enough.

I understand we expect a certain level of safety and reliability inherent to the design of our firearms. At the same time we have to expect that anything man made can fail inspite of the finest designs and intentions and we - the user/operator - have to act accordingly.

Seeing Remington's anti ad campaigns is begining to make me sick.
Its something I would expect from a liberal pewk job not from a reputable fire-arms business.
Blame the shooter,
blame the reporter, blame past employees who dont know squat about remingtons,
Blame a gunsmith (must be a bunch of "bubbas" doing all that gunsmith work). Blame improper maintenance. Discredit the designer, disregard stated customer complaints...

Blame it on failure of following golden rules <--disgusting. Those who quote this one need to stop regurgitating and think.
there is no downrange safe zone when hunting. Only an
immediate safe spot for you and those in your immediate vacinity.
The air? hit someone else just further downrange. (max range of 30-06?)
The ground? put a tracer in your gun and see where it goes when it hits this magical "safe" spot.
Want to clear and safe you rweapon? Nope cant do that, It'll go off
Keep your finger off the trigger unti...Doesn't Apply!


Point being...If it is a mechanical safety flaw. It is exactly that, an unsafe weapon that absolutely cannot be loaded and handled, ever. THE WEAPON SHOULD NOT GO OFF BY NOT TOUCHING THE TRIGGER.
And if they knew about it and are covering it up with a mud slinging campaign, they are just as bad as Toyota, BP, and (insert cover up here)






1. YouTube - CNBC's Insider never worked with Remington Firearms

2. NRA News

around 2:45mins

Duke,

Pointing a firearm up in the air isn't REALLY safe either...

Just because it doesn't fall straight back down and hit you hardly means it won't drop someplace else -- to strike somebody else in the top of the head a half mile away.

In Mexico -- and especially in Iraq during Saddam Hussein's days -- lots of folks have died or been injured by "safe" guns that have been fired up into the air.

(For some ODD reason, very, very few Americans tried to warn Saddam and his lackies that the Newtonian principle of "What goes up must come down" still is in effect...

No, you'd be surprised at how many revelers die when guns are discharged into the air. Apparently, some Iraqis believe that if you shoot into the air, the bullet goes into the same state of nothingness that BP wants us to think the Gulf of Mexico oil spill went.

As for the mother being negligent and shooting little 9-year-old Gus (I think that was his name), that was a tragic, tragic state of affairs -- and a true accident -- combined with a design flaw and apparent Remington negligence.

The boy had gone behind that horse trailer -- and she couldn't see him. She was pointing the gun away from others -- and never touched the trigger.

It wasn't as if she pointed the gun at him. The last time she looked, he was on the horse behind her. He got down and went behind the trailer -- where she couldn't see him -- when the gun discharged.

Now I'll agree in other cases that gunhandling was negligent -- but if the CNBC report is accurate -- and I for one believe it and don't think it was a media hit job -- Big Green was GROSSLY negligent when the trigger connector was found defective in 1948 -- by the DESIGNER -- when the first 200 guns came off the line.

I love Remington -- but they made a bad, bad, bad mistake a long time ago -- and had ample time to correct it, but didn't.

I fear this could either sink them -- or damage them beyond repair.

In response to DUKE426
And your Golden Rules arguement.
It doesnt stand up.

There is no mention of manufacturers responsibility to put out a safe firearm eh?

So...lets say I make a brake system in a car. You press the breaks but it doesnt stop, it malfuntions, or doesnt work as intended, and you kill your child in an accident.
Should you be jailed because you should have been traveling 100ft behind the car in front of you, or because you should have swerved to avoid and not relied upon those "safety" brakes? Or better yet, what if a company can just put out a EULA or statement in new gun packaging.
"safety is intended as cosmetic attribute only" We accept no responsibility for its failure or unexpected discharge of firearm"

"But hey...Its remington...I own one and it never malfunctioned, so therefore the other 4,999,999 made must be good go to. Someone else must have been stupid and not followed the golden rules of firearms safety. That family gets what they deserve and she should go to jail. And come on guys,
Its remington, we need to give them a break." <-- Sarcasm in case you didnt pick up on it.

A parent's child is killed and by a possible weapons malfunction and you state she should be jailed eh? truely disgusting

Changing brands but still the same subject, didn't ruger get sued for a design problem in the past. I think a guy had an old three screw and had one under the hammer, was on a camping trip and the revolver slipped out and came to rest on the hammer, striking and killing him. If I remember correctly Ruger won that suit.

Read my last post thoroughly. I said we have an expectation that the firearms manufacturers put out an inherently safe design. But I don't care how good the design...if it was designed by a man it can and will fail. Doesn't matter if it is a gun, a car or any other material piece of equipment. You have to use the safety between your ears as well. Expecting to be protected from all possible outcomes while exercising no care of your own is unrealistic...but I guess that is what you and so many others are driving toward with this cradle to the grave nanny state you've created out of what was formerly known as the Land of the Free.

Additionally, Remington has had their safety update/bulletin/recall out there regarding this issue for almost a decade. I already said my family had three rifles go back for the modification at the manufacturers expense. Other posters have verified in this thread that they knew about the warning as well. Maybe Remington hasn't publicized it as well as they should, but this is certainly no great secret among the outdoor/firearms/shooting community. How many people knew about the recall and were just too damn lazy to send their rifle in to be fixed? And now they have a problem and want to blame the company? Remington can't confiscate the arms and make you get the fix.

As far as firing the gun into the air, I am not advocating running around like the Iraqi's and cranking off '06's and .270's into the air or the heck of it. However, keeping it pointed that way seems to me to be the least of all evils. Sure seems better than hoppin' around on a willow peg cause you shot your foot off or looking at the cold dead carcass that used to be your 9 year old boy. Being angry at someone else because she was careless ain't bringin' that kid back. I don't take any joy in his death but I don't have any sympathy for that woman either. She screwed up and she has to live with it...oops, sorry. There's that personal responsibility thing again...

I do not think she should be jailed. But she certainly was negligent. She was pointing the rifle toward the trailer. The way I was taught to unload a rifle is to point the rifle at the ground, and in a safe direction every time. Not sometimes, every time.

And I still stand by my earlier statement. I would bet there was some aftermarket work done to the trigger of that rifle. Why else was trigger tampering absolutely avoided throughout the entire 1 hour show.

If the trigger had not been tampered with I guarantee you the father would have explicitly said. AND WE DID NOT TAMPER WITH THE TRIGGER. Tom.

Trigger tampering was mentioned briefly.

But it was clear than any "misalignment" -- including out of spec parts -- could be the cause.

Walker made it clear that's what he thought -- and he said he was basically "inspecting out" the problem trigger groups.

So...the designer himself realized that he'd created a flawed design -- and tried to rectify his mistake -- almost immediately -- but the company wouldn't do it because it cost 5.5 cents more per gun.

Walker was asked whether he thought Remington was demonstrating blatant disregard and negligence for safety and human life.

He thought about it a second and replied he felt it was "stupidity".

But adjusting the trigger was indeed mentioned -- but it's still clear a design flaw existed from the very start.

DUKE426
Your statement #1
"but I guess that is what you and so many others are driving toward with this cradle to the grave nanny state you've created out of what was formerly known as the Land of the Free."

Your statement #2
"Sure seems better than hoppin' around on a willow peg cause you shot your foot off or looking at the cold dead carcass that used to be your 9 year old boy."

In response to this dribble:
1. huh? Perhaps you should switch to decaf.

2. Hey Dr. Evil, What time does Westboro Baptist church begin evening worship these days?



I have dedicated my life to serving this country (prior Army, current Navy), so that you may state your opinion freely.

Good job excercising that which I defend!

I'm no lawyer, but the biggest problem I see is that this issue was pointed out by the original engineer almost immediately and nothing was done about it.

It's one thing if and unexpected and previously unknown flaw is discovered years after a product is released. A company cannot be expected to test out every single possible thing and discover/fix everything.

But, when a flaw is reported by your own engineer almost immediately, there really is no defense for not fixing it, at least in the next production run if nothing else. If a "safety issue" is reported to a company and they do nothing, then they have a problem.

I don't see this as a "gun industry" issue, it's a product issue that can and should be applied to any product from any company. If the designer himself reports a safety issue, they you better either fix it or prove he's wrong by testing/analysis.

__________________
"... shall not be infringed."

That's a good enough/big enough sample to prove it! (NOT)