Dear Smith and Wesson Forum i would like to hear some opinions on the Browning Automatic Rifle or as it was know to military personnel who used it. the B.A.R. sincerely and respectfully mg357 a proud member of the Smith and Wesson Forum.

First, it's heavy - really heavy and especially if you are carrying a full combat load of ammo plus assorted other necessities. Its rate of fire is pretty limited because of the 20 round magazines and non-changeable barrel. It isn't a substitute for a real machine gun with belt feed, removable barrel, etc. On the plus side, it is reliable, accurate, and relatively easy to shoot. In summary, it is more rifle than machine gun and a very heavy unwieldy rifle at that.

To condense the above post, Too heavy for a rifle, to0 light for a machine gun. I would love to have one. P.S. Barrels can't be changed Out.
O.Z.

Cool factor----Oh yeah...........Do I want one-----Oh yeah..........Bonnie and Clyde thought it was a good rifle even thought they had to cut it down.(before they were cut down)

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Go big or stay home

Never fired one...know many that did.
Have held one many times, made me drool uncontrollably. I fell in love with it.
Wasn't there a company not too long ago that made a semi-auto version?
Would be interesting to see the reaction at the rifle range, though.

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The Last Standing Knight

Yeah, it was Clyde Barrows favorite gun for killing cops. The savage animals got what they deserved (Bonnie & Clyde, not the cops), its too bad they died so quickly.

When the BAR was developed the Infantry carried bolt action rifles, the submachine gun was just being developed-the OVP in Italy, machine guns-the Maxim, the Vickers, the Schwarzlose, etc., were all heavy (100lbs +) setups that were not easily moveable. The crude nature of communications in WWI meant that FOs and Fire Support Teams-when there were any-depended on field telephones and runners to report targets and order fire missions. The BAR-and the Lewis Gun before it-were attempts to give the Infantry some desperately needed close fire support
as they all too often advanced over open ground against dug in opponents who may-or may not-have been "softened up" by artillery fire.
The heavy machine guns were water cooled, the Lewis Gun had a air cooled jacket around its barrel. The concept of a quick change barrel does not appear until the German MG34. The BAR was meant to be an Automatic Rifle, not a Machine Gun per se, it functioned very well in that role.

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1918 A 3-SLR

My father-in-law tells me stories that his father told him about when he was in WWII. Said his dad was the BAR man and would take a step forward and fire a short burst during his forward momentum, and he would fire a burst each time his right foot took a step. During Japanese mass Bonzai attacs he would have a guy on each side handing him magazines and he "mowed down a bunch of em", and from other stories his dad told him, my father-in-law still hates Japanese to this day.

it was an excellent automatic rifle for its time. It did what the Chauchat was intended to do, but which was too badly designed and manufactured to accomplish. In that role, its weight was a distinct advantage. Neither the M-14E2 nor the M-15 succeeded in replacing it.

As a light machinegun, it's marginal. The ZB-26 and Bren Gun were far superior.

At the time it was introduced, it was the best of its kind, just as was the Fokker D-VII. Twenty years later, unlike the Fokker it was still viable in combat.

The FN Model D version has interchangeable barrels

There was a BAR belt issued, had pouches for the magazines, on the right side there was a metal fitting for the gunner to brace the butt in.

20 rounds of 30-06 in controllable full auto? Whats not to like?

The handguards had a habit of catching fire if used for prolonged firing.

By 1944 attempts to replace it with the M1919A6 were already underway.

It did help beget the first fire team based squads.

The ammo belts could be, and sometimes were, reused to hold a bunch of M16 mags.

I think the Army retired them in the Mid1950s. Some lasted in action in the P.I. and with South Vietnamese forces after that.

I doubt most modern soldiers and Marines have ever seen one outside of a museum.

My uncle enlisted in 61 and he trained on one at basic he had a tour in kansas and a tour in england got out before vietnam got too intense. My dad was drafted in 68 and trained on m14 in basic then got sent to arizona for a year then turkey for a year. Never saw a BAR while he was in. Despite training on m14 he has no interest in any of my m1a or variants. Just prefers his old smiths he does like a good 1-866-706-4357 and a colt 1911 tho

All.
Have fired a couple, was well after my active duty time in USMC. What a hoot. During it's day, WWII and Korean War, it was well used by USMC.
Do not compare it to machine guns or sub machine guns, it is neither. It is an automatic rifle capable of controlled full auto fire. Capable of long range fire. It is a capability currently lacking in USMC weapons.
Bill@Yuma

How to feel old: sometime in the 1980s I was talking to a very senior Sergeant Major and I mentioned the old saying; "The smallest man in the squad gets to carry the BAR". He asked me, "What's a BAR?"

There is an old Marine in my family that is quite fond of the BAR. He carried one into combat for 3 years across the Pacific in WWII. He always speaks of the rifle with fondness. He told me that he often wonders how many men he killed with it during that time.

Cyrano, you're right on. My Great Uncle is a small man, about 5'5". I can imagine that back in his youth he probably didn't weight much more than 160 pounds.

The last one I saw on active duty was at Ft Dix in the 1980's. There was two BAR mounted on the watch tower on the rifle range I qualified on. When we arrived on line the Range Officer pointed out a wooden ammo crate about 150 yds out, gave a signal and a Range NCO emptied the magazine in nice, controlled, 3-4 rd bursts into the the crate.

"That BAR is on the tower in case one of you decides to pull a Full Metal Jacket" the RO explained. Later I asked why they didn't use an M60 on the tower. The Range NCO looked at me for a second and replied "We've always used BARs for this because the longer sight radius makes them a little more precise than an M60. If I do have to shoot someone on the line, I sure as heck don't want to accidentally hit someone else." For that application I think the BAR was a good choice.

I have fired the BAR quite a bit.
I am also a big fan of the M1 Garand, and have shot them a bunch as well.
I have shot the Thompson, and the M1 Carbine.

Baised on that, IF I had been in WWII I would want a BAR, striped down, no bipod, no handle for most uses in most places...

In the cities, for building to building, and indoor use, the 45 ACP Thompson is a good choice, maybe better, I like the 45 ACP for up close for sure, but even then I could use a BAR with good effect...

A Garand would be OK as well, but I am just not a fan of the M1 carbine...

One of my late uncles carried a BAR across France, Belgium and Germany in 1944-1945. His infantry division went ashore a few weeks after D-Day, they fought pretty much straight through and he was in Germany for several months on occupation duty after the war ended. He didn't like to talk about it. I learned more about what he had done from some of his army buddies at his funeral. Apparently they were in the thick of things and he wore a few of them (BARs) out.

I own a BAR, a Winchester that was converted to 1918A2 specs at some point in time, IIRC the barrel is dated '52; all Winchester BAR's were made in 1918. I love to shoot it, one of my favorite MG's.

The thing to keep in mind about the BAR is by WWII, which was when it saw the most use, it was really obsolete. Yes, it was reliable gun, but it did not have a quick change barrel and was not belt fed. As a squad automatic weapon, it did not hold a candle to the MG42, for example. The later FN-D did have a quick change barrel, but it was still magazine fed. The gas system is also a chore to clean, not a huge issue now, but it certainly was in the era of corrosive ammo.

To an extent, the BAR is still in front line service. The basic action of the FN MAG-58 AKA the US M240, is really just a BAR action turned upside down. Whereas the the toggle action on a BAR cam upward, id goes to the bottom on the MAG-58. The MAG-58/M240 is considered one of the most reliable machine guns in the world, that is a fact, not an opinion. In a nutshell, the MAG/240 is nothing more than an upside down BAR action with a MG42 top cover and a MG42 trigger group. That is a very simplistic description, but that's really what it is.

It was cutting edge technology when introduced, but obsolete by WWII. That said, it is a classic US martial arm. A neat, neat, gun with, IMO, a perfect ROF on its "fast" setting. I need to get out and shoot my BAR, it has been too long.

A Browning AUTOMATIC Rifle (BAR) would be great to have. A Browning SEMI-automatic would be BS.

If you really want to know about BARs you should buy the book " Rock in a Hard Place" By James Ballou. There is a picture of John Pepper, the guy who invented Pepper popper targets in the book with a BAR. I have fired that BAR. A lot of people compare BARs to other guns and say they lack quick change barrels or that the magazine is too small. That is all true, but the BAR is a lot older then most of the guns it is compared too. Kind of like comparing a 1955 Chevy to a new Corvette. When the BAR was adopted it was state of the art. I was recently at a range where a BAR, a M1a and an AR15 were all being shot at the same time. The guy with the BAR was shooting off the bipod. The guys with the M1a and AR15 were shooting off of front barrel rests and sand bags. At 100 yards the guy with the BAR could put 20 rounds down range into a little bigger group then the other two rifles. But a whole lot quicker. If you ever get a chance to shoot a BAR you should jump on it. I think the BAR is an extremely neat gun and I love shooting it.

Something recognized by the Marines, who keep threatening to adopt another automatic rifle, along the lines of the Chartered Industries of Singapore "Ultimax".

I talked to a WWII vet onetime about how his buddy handled the recoil of the BAR. He found a short piece of cable and a stirrup from a saddle, tied the stirrup to the barrel and would just drop the stirrup to the ground, stand on it, and fire away!

I got to fire an FN D at the old Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot.
It's one of the MGs I wish I had ponied up the cash to shoot again.
Another is the Browning M2.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.............

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Go big or stay home

My uncle also toted one during his scenic tour of the South Pacific Islands, courtesy of the Second Marines. I'm guessing he may have been selected for the assignment because he was pretty tall and fairly muscular. (I think he was also pretty enthusiastic about his service, too. Never heard if he volunteered to carry the BAR. He did carry a shotgun for a while, but there were problems with the shells getting wet.)

My father invested in a Swedish BAR out of interest in the gun his older brother carried. I've only shot it once, and it's quite a different experience waiting for about 3 1/2 inches of bolt to run forward after you pull the trigger! The two different rates of automatic fire are also pretty interesting.

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LEO since 1981.

I fired them for familiarization when I was in high school and college ROTC. These were the late models that were full auto only, but with a reduced rate of fire so that you could fire off single shots by tapping the trigger if you wanted. They were a piece of cake to get on target, as the recoil was mostly absorbed by the automatic action and the heavy weight.

The BAR made a good squad base of fire, placing high-power '06 rounds on target - plenty of penetration and killing power. It could not substitute for a true machine gun, as it didn't have the sustained volume of fire necessary for that job. It would overheat in continuous fire, so it was to be applied sparingly when needed only. The issue 20-round mags limited the effective rate of fire even more, as these had to be changed out often in battle.

Full-auto fire draws enemy fire. The BAR guy would tend to get shot at more in battle, as he was "on stream" longer, and thus more noticeable. The enemy didn't like BAR men and wanted to eliminate them.

Although the BAR had a good reputation for reliability, Korean veterans told us that the BAR (and the M1 and M2 carbines) were susceptible to jamming in freezing weather such as found in Korea ("Frozen Chosin" in particular). The only firearm that could be generally relied on was the M1 rifle, and then only if all lubricants were removed when the temp got well below freezing. The field expedient to unglue frozen guns was to use what expendable liquid God gave you on them.

As a side note, the BARs were heavy, more complex to field strip, and always seemed to be carried by the smallest guy in the squad. Nonetheless, they were greatly appreciated when spot volume fire was needed in WWII and Korea.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Opinion of a B.A.R.?

WWI=miricale weapon

WWII=Get a Bren

That's a pretty accurate statement, although, I'd say MG42 instead of the BREn. Still, BAR's are a blast to shoot!

The Bren is a better light machinegun than the MG-42, especially with the non-disintegrating German belts.

As a medium machinegun, the MG-42 is superior.

I was out diggin' in the vault earlier and thought I'd throw up a pic of my old BAR, not the best pics in the world, but I never claimed to be a photographer.

Steave, the BAR is super neat, But I gotta say ,having your own Pack Howitzer takes the "super cool" award.

The Pack is pretty cool, although my wife says it's in her parking spot in the garage!

Steave,

As you know, it's true that everything is bigger in Texas, to wit, your comment about checking your "vault". How many guys does it take to open the door on that sucker? It must be huge!

Best regards,

Dave (a proud fellow Texan)

As far as WWII goes, I do think the Bren is the best Automatic Rifle, followed closely by the BAR.

When it comes to Medium belt feds, the MG 42 is the best by far...

For a heavy belt fed, the Brownings, 1917 & 1919 are great guns.

When you get above rifle calibres, the Browning 50, ie the Ma Duce is the Holy Grail.
The Browning guns are most rugged...

However, there is a new light weight 50 BMG that does show some promise.

In todays world, the German MG1 [a MG 42 in 308] would be a good choice, the Belgian MAG 58 is a good choice, and I would be happy with a H&K 21 [but I am an H&K Freek], however, I have seen several H&K 21's shot a great deal, with no problems.

Steave

That is one cool "cannon".

From what I've read: Much like the Garand, BARs were heavy and not popular for packing around Europe or Pacific or Korea. But when the chips were down, both became the much preferred weapon over other small arms such as the M1 Carbine or Thompson. Nothing reached out like the 30-06.

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Jon

Oh, and Steave, what the heck you gonna do with all those empty ammo cans?

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Jon