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11-14-2010, 03:34 PM
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That other top-break revolver from Britain!
I've been looking for one of these for some time, and found one this weekend. I'll be doing an article in the future on the British Enfield and Webley top-break revolvers as used during World War II, so this one will be my photo model.
It's a Webley Mark IV, which I estimate was produced by Webley and Scott Ltd. in 1944. It fires the .38/200 (known as the .380 in England), or the standard .38 S&W round. These were general issue during WWII, while the Inglis High Power pistol was issued to special forces and paratroopers.
I think if anyone was hit with one of these woefully inadequate and antiquated-design numbers and they found out about it, they might be tempted to do harm to the shooter. Ah well. Cheerio, mates, and pip-pip, don't you know.
John
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11-14-2010, 04:49 PM
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I suspect yours is older than you estimate. This Mark VI was made in 1917
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11-14-2010, 04:58 PM
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As a long time Webley collector, I have a real affection for these guns. However, they are sighted to shoot the 200gr load. Most commercial 32SW loadings on this side of the pond use the lighter loading and you will need to adjust accordingly. Dave
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11-15-2010, 12:11 AM
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Mk VI was the British service designation for that revolver. Mk IV was the Webley commercial designation for theirs.
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11-15-2010, 05:25 AM
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The Brits must hate Germans.
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11-15-2010, 09:53 AM
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Hi:
I have been a "Webley Fan" since the 1950s when Gold State Arms of California was selling Webleys for $9.95 for IVs and VIs for $14.95.
The Webley Mk IV was a .455 w/4' barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk V was a .455 w/ 5" barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk VI was a .455 w/ 6" barrel and square butt.
Enfields .38s were SA/DA and the "Commando" model was DA only with a spurless hammer.
For some reason (?) Enfields were several dollars higher than the Webleys.
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11-15-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
I suspect yours is older than you estimate. This Mark VI was made in 1917
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I'm actually pretty close to correct on the date for mine. The commercial Webley .38 Mk IV revolvers were not actually approved for service until September of 1945. The catch is that these Webleys had already been in service throughout the war. That approval was simply to "tidy up the paperwork." In order to distinguish the more finely-finished commercial Webleys from the rough-finished wartime "issue" jobs, the war babies were marked "WAR FINISH," as this one was. I suppose this helped to assuage Webley pride in producing a nice finish...usually. Contracts for the Webley Mark IV Military Model were issued 4/25/40, 5/28/40, 6/30/41, and 1/26/44. By far the bulk of these (40,000) were in that last contract. The first three contracts were for off-the-shelf commercial products, while the last contract probably had most, if not all, of the "war finish" pieces. So, by process of elimination, my educated guess is that this revolver was produced in 1944.
John
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11-15-2010, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj
Hi:
I have been a "Webley Fan" since the 1950s when Gold State Arms of California was selling Webleys for $9.95 for IVs and VIs for $14.95.
The Webley Mk IV was a .455 w/4' barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk V was a .455 w/ 5" barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk VI was a .455 w/ 6" barrel and square butt.
Enfields .38s were SA/DA and the "Commando" model was DA only with a spurless hammer.
For some reason (?) Enfields were several dollars higher than the Webleys.
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Jimmy-
Sorry, but the difference between the MK IV and V .455's was that the cylinder diameter was increased slightly on the latter, to make it safer with smokeless powder. Both usually had four-inch barrels, but six-inch ones exist.
The .38 shown is a MK IV .38, numbered in Webley's COMMERCIAL range. This is not the same order as the service MK guns. That confuses many.
Most of these MK IV .38's taken into British military use had five-inch barrels, which are exceedingly rare (if they exist) on the .455's. But Webley would take special orders from customers, and officers then bought their own sidearms. Someone might have ordered a five-inch barrel.
The best finished Webleys that I've seen were the WG models and the Wilkinson-Webleys, sold by the famous sword maker. Those were wonderful items. The "issued" ones have dull gray finishes, and War Finish .38's are really quite rough. They are easily the poorest finished Webleys. Don't judge the maker by them. S&W Victory Models are also pretty rough,as were late wartime German-issued pistols.
T-Star
P.S. That retailer was actually Golden State, not just Gold. But many other mail order dealers also sold them. I got my MK VI .455 at Montgomery Ward's. I was 13, and my mom had to buy it for me. I later bought one made by Enfield Arsenal, after the Crown cut Webley out as a provider in the 1920's. They frankly duplicated the MK VI, and only the markings distinguish them. By 1927, these began to be replaced witrh the Enfield .38's. By then, I think officers had to carry the issued handgun. It was probably part of the grand scheme to eventually ban private possession of guns in the UK.
Last edited by Texas Star; 11-15-2010 at 08:48 PM.
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11-15-2010, 09:26 PM
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I'd sure like to hear of an opportunity to obtain your article when it becomes published.
Webleys are fun. The factory .38 S&W is fairly anemic but a handload with a 200 grain lead round nose bullet hits to point of aim and provides a bit more "oomph." My Webley loves the heavy bullet load.
I have a couple. Webley is the only other revolver brand besides Smith & Wesson and Colt that I consider interesting enough to own.
World War II Mk IV .38/200
Boer War vintage MK IV .455
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11-15-2010, 09:34 PM
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I have been collecting Webley's for many years. I have them in 22, 32, 38 and 455. I will post some pics in a few. Just got home from Scouts.
The 22 and 32 variations are rare.
That's a good looking War Finish you have there.
Try to find some of the South African 38/200 to shoot in it. Nice load.
Will post pics in a few.
Take Care
Bruce
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11-15-2010, 09:48 PM
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Hi, T-Star:
Thank you for the information.
I recall that Golden State Arms sold the Webley Mk IV .455 (Boer War) for $9.95 each which included a brown holster and a bottle of 44/40 cold blue. This was the mail order price and the weapons were shipped via Railway Express.
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11-16-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray
I'd sure like to hear of an opportunity to obtain your article when it becomes published.
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I'm putting the finishing touches on the article now, and then it will go to Dillon for use in the Blue Press when they want to publish it. I can never predict much in advance exactly when any specific article will see print. That's up to the editor. I will give you a heads up when it does go to press.
FYI, the January edition of Dillon's Blue Press will contain my article on the U.S. S&W Model 1917, followed by one on the Colt M1917 in February.
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11-16-2010, 04:21 PM
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Actually the Enfield No. 2 Mk I is "The Other" revolver, the Webleys in their various models came along long before it.
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11-16-2010, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceHMX
I have been collecting Webley's for many years. I have them in 22, 32, 38 and 455. I will post some pics in a few. Just got home from Scouts.
The 22 and 32 variations are rare.
That's a good looking War Finish you have there.
Try to find some of the South African 38/200 to shoot in it. Nice load.
Will post pics in a few.
Take Care
Bruce
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Bruce-
I'd love to see your pix. Please don't forget.
T-Star
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11-18-2010, 01:43 AM
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I don't have pics of mine right now. It's a Mk.IV, .380 Enfield cal. Marked 'WAR FINISH' The letters 'SPF" are stamped at the top of the back strap.
I assume this means 'S(something) Police Force'. Any other ideas?
BTW, where does one find S.African .380 Enfield ammo?
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11-18-2010, 06:14 AM
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I love those Webley revolvers.
Here is my MKV with 6 inch barrel.
It is used by New Zealand.
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11-18-2010, 06:19 AM
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I couldend resist. Here is my 3th model Fosbery.
I do own also an Webley MK IV in .38/200 made in 1951, an MK III and an Mint MK VI.
On the second pic you see the nut in the frame where the cilinder turns on.
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11-18-2010, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALADIN85020
I think if anyone was hit with one of these woefully inadequate and antiquated-design numbers and they found out about it, they might be tempted to do harm to the shooter. Ah well. Cheerio, mates, and pip-pip, don't you know.
John
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Well , you know how polite the Brits are. If they did shoot someone , they didn't want it to hurt!
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11-18-2010, 09:16 AM
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Actually, the original 200 gr load Enfield developed for these guns drew a pretest from the Germans in the late 30s. The bullet was flat nosed or semi cupped. The ever-correct Brit gov then switched to a more 'humane' round nosed load! Why they didn't change back to the original load when the War started is beyond me. As to where to find a current 200gr load now other than hand loading is a problem. Fiocchi used to load them but I do not see them in the current US offerings. Dave
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11-18-2010, 09:21 AM
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By the way, after Webley was absorbed by Greener post-war, they did a run of 200 'commemoratives' for 100 years of the Webley top breaks, in a wooden box with markings one the gun and numbered. I acquired one NIB from the late Val Forgett collection. These were the very last of the Webley handguns and listed as such on the certificates. Great piece. Dave
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Last edited by Dnovo1; 11-18-2010 at 09:36 AM.
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11-18-2010, 11:46 AM
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Nice gun(s)!! They sure have become popular and collectible!!
Bob
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11-18-2010, 01:15 PM
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When you compare British top breaks with a 1905 M&P, it provides evidence why the Brits aren't a superpower anymore.
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11-18-2010, 02:10 PM
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A friend/roomate of mine owned a MKIV that had belonged to his dad. The father had picked it up during the 1950's I think. Never got a chance to shoot it (I don't think the old guy sot it much). I wanted to make an offer on it, but I had been his dad's and I'm kind of funny about that kind of thing.
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11-26-2010, 01:01 AM
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It took a solid week of digging and only one power tool, but I found my Mark IV .38 . The marking states the cal as:
.38 .767.
On the frame behind the hammer are is stamped:
SPF
53XX
Now I have to find the ammo.You people cause me more trouble.
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11-26-2010, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilgrim6a
I don't have pics of mine right now. It's a Mk.IV, .380 Enfield cal. Marked 'WAR FINISH' The letters 'SPF" are stamped at the top of the back strap.
I assume this means 'S(something) Police Force'. Any other ideas?
BTW, where does one find S.African .380 Enfield ammo?
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SPF is the Singapore Police Force.
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11-26-2010, 08:42 PM
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380 Enfield you will not find, but it shoots 38S&W (NOT repeat NOT 38 Special) which can be found in the US. Dave
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11-27-2010, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herd118
SPF is the Singapore Police Force.
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Thanks. I always thought it was Singapore, but wasn't sure.
I found some of my old reloads. .38 HBWC over 3.1 grs. of Unique. Hollow base slugs help when you're dealing with a land dia.of .361.
No one has mentioned the OTHER top break.
Webley & Scott III*. The cal. is 1.
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02-07-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dnovo1
By the way, after Webley was absorbed by Greener post-war, they did a run of 200 'commemoratives' for 100 years of the Webley top breaks, in a wooden box with markings one the gun and numbered. I acquired one NIB from the late Val Forgett collection. These were the very last of the Webley handguns and listed as such on the certificates. Great piece. Dave
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I have one of these Commemorative 100 Year Mark IV's! If anyone is interested I will get the number of the gun and cert. It is for sale.
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02-07-2011, 10:05 PM
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Old Western Scrounger sells 38/200
I don't have one but a .380 Webley is high on my list. I collect US service revolvers but England was an ally so I can allow it I also like top-breaks but all of the S&W's are too rare or fragile to use as shooters.....
Would love a Russian .357 "REX" top break revolver but they are unobtanium.......
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11-28-2012, 04:29 PM
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Oh, I love these! Here's mine...
Shoots great, is in practically perfect condition, and is also the revolver that got me hooked on Webleys and Enfield No. 2's.
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07-18-2013, 05:15 PM
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This is a good thread imo; I've enjoyed reading it as well as the photos. In the fall of 1997, Century Int'l Arms (CAI stamp on imports) offeted the 38 Webleys, in both War and Commercial finishes. I saw two commercials with different top strap markings, so there are variations to be had. The bullet info above is slightly misleading; the German protest was that the original Brit 200-grain bullet was lead, a violation of the Hague Convention. The Brits changed to a copper-jacketed bullet which was less effective. The American 38 S&W was always made with a 146 or 148-gr bullet, and that load will shoot to a different point of aim because the British sights were designed for the heavier ammo.
In 1958, Klein's in Chicago (the same firm that sold Lee Harvey Oswald the Italian rifle used to shoot JFK) offered Mark VI .455 Webley's for about $23, re-chambered foir ,45 Colt. There was at least one "WG Army" model mixed in because that's what they sent me. I should have sent in a second order for a real Mark VI but I didn't. Turns out the WG was made in 1901 (I wrote the factory) and not recommended for 45 Colt ammo...so I stopped shooting factory loads & switched to light reloads.
Those big Webleys are great, rugged guns & fun to shoot. Their thumb latch is easier to work than the latches on the old S&W top-breaks (sorry guys but it's true), but it can dig into the top of one's thumb if the gun is gripped normally. But the latch can serve as a thumb rest & the gun is then very comfortable to shoot. The WG has a fine DA trigger pull; I think the Mark VI lockwork is similar but have never fired one. .455 ammo is made by Fiocchi, btw.
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07-19-2013, 01:41 PM
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I have Mark Vis and their Enfield "Spin-offs" (yes, Enfield made Mark VIs in 0.455 after WWI for the British Army). Unfortunately of the 6 I own (combining Webley and Enfield), five are cut for 0.45 ACP, but one Webley is from the late South African commercial purchase and is still in 0.455. I load for the cut ones using 0.45 AR and 255 grain Lead Heads sized at 0.454 with fps of ~640. This mimics the 0.455 Webley load.
In addition, I have four Webley MkIVs all marked "war finish" which was Webley's way of saying that these were not up to the prewar finish standards but were 100% functional. For these, and for my Enfield No2's (No 2 MkI and then I* and I**) I use 38 SW brass and 180 grain lead FPs sized at 0.360. At 650 fps, these match the military round with the 178 FMJ bullet. Great fun to shoot and I would not like to be hit by any of the rounds irrespective of calibre. Dave_n
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07-19-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbslinger
When you compare British top breaks with a 1905 M&P, it provides evidence why the Brits aren't a superpower anymore.
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I have to disagree with that statement. The problem is the caliber, not the revolver. Had England the foresight to specify 38 Special for the new revolver design rather than 38 S&W these topbreaks would probably still be in production somewhere. The design itself is a very functional and durable for a field gun and the sights are far ahead of the fixed sights S&W and Colt were offering at that time. I have long been thinking of boring and lining one for 38 Special. Before a string of threads start pointing out 38 Special is too long for the cylinder consider just using 38 Special wadcutters similar to a S&W 52. The cylinders I've measured have enough length for 38 Special wadcuter ammo.
Last edited by walnutred; 07-19-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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07-19-2013, 03:53 PM
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For some reason I have one of those:
From the tables, this one would date to 1944. It is marked "WAR FINISH." It is in pretty good shape.
I fired it a few times and found it somewhat accurate. I'd kind of like to have a .455 to keep it company, but that is not high on my must-have list. I'd probably sell a couple of interesting guns to fund a Webley-Fosbery if one ever showed up in my vicinity.
Webleys always struck me as peculiar in that they were simple on the inside and complex on the surface, the exact opposite of S&Ws or Colts. It's almost as though they went through some kind of multi-dimensional crisis that turned them all inside out. I guess that would make them easy to service, though, so perhaps they look that way based on valid (if not totally successful) design decisions.
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07-23-2013, 06:25 PM
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Dave n--
I enjoyed yr interesting post. I'm curious as to whether you've had to thin the base of the .45 Auto Rim cases in order for them to chamber in the .455 Mak VI. I know that .45 ("Long") Colt cases will fit because that rechambering is a simple reaming operation to lengthen the chambers. Guns converted to use .45ACP ammo usually had the rear faces of their cylinders machined down to accept the clips used to hold .45ACP rounds in the 1917 & later .45 revolvers, which would increase the "headspace" between the rear of the cylinder & the standing breech.
I ask because the regular .455 revolver ammo has a thinner rim than the .45AR.
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07-23-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkk41
Well , you know how polite the Brits are. If they did shoot someone , they didn't want it to hurt!
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Now that's funny
thewelshm
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07-23-2013, 09:38 PM
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I read about one case where a British officer at (I think) El Alamein shot a fleeing Italian in the back with a .38. This guy had entered battle with just nine rounds of .38 ammo!
He was later wounded, too, and the pair were in the same aid station. The Italian died many hours later, in great pain all the while, while they waited for a surgeon.
On the other hand, I read about a case in the USA where a cop with a .38 S&W using the lead 200 grain Super Police load tagged a fleeing thug in the back at 75 yards. He was stopped dead in his tracks and the bullet was mushroomed.
My father once had a cheap topbreak marked U.S. Revolver Co. I think it was really made by Iver Johnson. Copied a S&W design. He had some of those 200 grain loads, but never shot the gun. I doubt the 200 grain ammo has been made since WW II. I think his box was from Winchester.
I beieve he got it from my grandfather, who probably bought it in the 1930's.
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07-23-2013, 09:53 PM
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Here are some police issued Webley revolvers:
1) Natal Mounted Police
2) New South Wales Police
This group includes an Enfield from the Federation of Malaya Police (FMP) & Webleys from Singapore, London Metro Police, Egyptian Police , a R.I.C. issued MkIII, and others.
The Hong Police Police from the '30s in .38/145 aka 38/200 had a front sight insert that you changed when you switched from the lighter to the heavier bullet.This one is missing....:
I keep this .455 around just for looks:
Last edited by policerevolvercollector; 07-23-2013 at 10:06 PM.
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07-23-2013, 10:21 PM
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US Veteran Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector
Here are some police issued Webley revolvers:
1) Natal Mounted Police
2) New South Wales Police
This group includes an Enfield from the Federation of Malaya Police (FMP) & Webleys from Singapore, London Metro Police, Egyptian Police , a R.I.C. issued MkIII, and others.
The Hong Police Police from the '30s in .38/145 aka 38/200 had a front sight insert that you changed when you switched from the lighter to the heavier bullet.This one is missing....:
I keep this .455 around just for looks:
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The MK III .38 othe bottom in the third pic is what a couple of characters on, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World" should have had on the show. They actually used MK IV .38's, not made until at least 1927. The show was set from 1919-1922. Another MK IV .38 stood in for a MK VI .455, although Lord John Roxton did have a nickled pair of MK VI's, worn in shoulder holsters when he didn't wear his Colt 1911 .45.
If you have the DVD's or if the show goes into re-runs again, look at the Webley sometimes worn by Ned Malone and that old fud Dr. Summerlee.
BTW, the actor who played Summerlee is anti-gun and he and I had some disagreements about that on the former New Line Cinema board about the show. To his credit, after being cut from the cast after the first season, he did interact with fans on the board. None of the other stars did, although Rachel Blakely did do a phone-in interview from Australia and offered comments to be furthered by an intermediary. Jennifer O'Dell answered selected questions on her own board, since revised.
This is the last show that I saw that featured any Webleys, although three characters also or entirely used Colt products. Rachel (she played Marguerite Krux) had a Webley hammerless model (WP?) a couple of times, but often used an Iver Johnson that I guess was cheaper to rent from the prop house.
I just saw your added photos. The MK IV .38 with wooden stocks is the first that I've seen with wood on it. Thanks for the pictures.
The best Webley book is probably Wm. Chipchase Dowell's, "The Webley Story." But it seems hard to locate and is probably out of print. Geoffrey Boothroyd did a pretty good job on Webley with nice pics in, "The Handgun". That is probably the best single book ever written on handguns, from earliest times to about the mid-1960's.
Last edited by Texas Star; 07-23-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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07-23-2013, 11:43 PM
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Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkk41
Well , you know how polite the Brits are. If they did shoot someone , they didn't want it to hurt!
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If it's all the same to you, I'd rather not volunteer to be shot with one of those. Just one of my silly prejudices.
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Oh well, what the hell.
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05-13-2014, 04:00 PM
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Yep, revived an thread by doing a search and was successful!
I am considering buying a Webley & Scott Mark IV in 38s&w for $400. Not sure but I think that's a fair price, but my question is should the gun be functional? Is it collectible? Haven't contacted the seller yet, just looking at it online. What should I ask?
Thanks guys.
Last edited by SW_shooter; 05-13-2014 at 04:01 PM.
Reason: photo
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05-13-2014, 05:16 PM
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I will get a Webley someday, meanwhile I have to be content with that "other" revolver.
Yes, I suspect Ye Old 38/200/38 S&W is a on par with the 22LR/25ACP/32ACP for self defense. Inadequate, but no one is willing to prove it by standing in front of one.
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05-14-2014, 02:30 PM
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I found the picture of my Webley MK III. This a comercial revolver has no military proofmarks and the calibre is indicated .455/.476
The state could be better. But I am happy with it.
Under the Colt Official police from 1939 the Webley MK IV in .38/200 from 1951
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05-16-2014, 09:06 PM
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I like this Webley the most.
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Tags
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380, colt, commercial, fiocchi, m1917, military, model 1917, russian, top-break, victory, webley, wwii |
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