My Junky Luger

[DocB]

Haven't posted in a while since I haven't found a Smith to buy that wasn't either a duplicate or trashed. So, I brought up my Luger today to give it a waxing. . .never had been waxed. This thing showed up in a LGS somewhere around 10-15 years ago for $300. Post 1968 import. All matching. Mechanically new. Perfect original finish throughout except for the high points on the left side. It had the East German plastic grips and a black widow magazine. I located 2 original magazines (not matching of course) and a respectable pair of original period grips. I had to sand the high points on the left side to remove the pitting. . .it was pretty bad, but the gun came out really nice. The amazing thing is that I saw a Luger out for $800 two months ago. Virtually no finish left and totally rusted/pitted out. I knew a restoration was near impossible so I passed. It sold for that amount a day later. A project or parts gun to me. These things have gotten few and far between. Everyone I've seen out for sale for years has been trashed or nickeled, except the high-end ones that are all $3000 and up. I refer to this one as the nicest shooter on the planet.

[Andyd]

Originally Posted by DocB

Haven't posted in a while since I haven't found a Smith to buy that wasn't either a duplicate or trashed. So, I brought up my Luger today to give it a waxing. . .never had been waxed. This thing showed up in a LGS somewhere around 10-15 years ago for $300. Post 1968 import. All matching. Mechanically new. Perfect original finish throughout except for the high points on the left side. It had the East German plastic grips and a black widow magazine. I located 2 original magazines (not matching of course) and a respectable pair of original period grips. I had to sand the high points on the left side to remove the pitting. . .it was pretty bad, but the gun came out really nice. The amazing thing is that I saw a Luger out for $800 two months ago. Virtually no finish left and totally rusted/pitted out. I knew a restoration was near impossible so I passed. It sold for that amount a day later. A project or parts gun to me. These things have gotten few and far between. Everyone I've seen out for sale for years has been trashed or nickeled, except the high-end ones that are all $3000 and up. I refer to this one as the nicest shooter on the planet.

What exactly is a black widow magazine???

[DocB]

It is kind of a generic magazine with no SN that protrudes from the base of the gun when inserted. Plastic bottom. They are kind of uncommon and expensive. I guess that's because they have markings on the sides. Probably not really a "black widow" magazine since that gun doesn't really exist. People just started calling them that after the war since they had black plastic grips and a mag with a black plastic base. I think the experts call it the "extruded" magazine.

[Lordvice]

That is a nice gun, I shot one of those some 30 years ago and I could not believe how well it shot.

[italiansport]

"Black Widow" was a term coined by Ralph Shattuck a now deceased Luger dealer to hype late examples with black plastic grips. This term was not used by the Germans during WW II and was a total fabrication on Shattuck's part.
Jim

[sureshotbob]

The so called Black Widow's are marked BYF 41 or BYF 42 .
Also the small parts are blued not strawed.

[Cyrano]

looks like a very nice luger to me. The date, 1939 is nice, being the start of the war, and the '42' is an early code for Mauser.

[Drm50]

A friend of mines dad was a machinist and a gun nut. He got a junk Luger
and bought a after market carbine barrel for it. Numerich I think. He made
a front sight blade for it and used parts from a 03 Springfield to make his
rear. He had it blued and made a stock for it. Outfit was really neat it looked factory made. Had the accuracy of a 22rifle. I was always pestering
him to buy it, to no avail. I have had a couple Artilleries but they didn't
shoot like the carbine conversion.

[murphydog]

Looks nice, and you know you might have gotten a good deal at $300 . The market for these seems to have settled in the high three figures for worn shooters, the occasional nicer common ones in the low four figure range, and the sky's the limit for rare/really nice ones. I have the perception that demand for these is not as high compared to about 5-10 years ago but I tend to collect US made revolvers, so what do I know?

[DocB]

I think demand is down because they really priced themselves out of the market. You can't collect them without your wife killing you. Few people have thousands of dollars available every few months to add one to a growing collection. These are the two good reasons why I have only one. Mine is a common one, but last time I took it out it did shoot very accurately.

[Troystat]

Nice Luger, they certainly are nicely made pistols, fun to shoot as well.

[OIF2]

Don't forget the Swiss ones. Beautifully made, with a long slender (4.75") barrel in 7.65mm.
Bob

[italiansport]

I probably shouldn't post this in a thread titled as such but here goes. I have a 1918 DWM Luger with matching numbers including the magazine I'd sell for $1100. The finish is a little tatty but it's there. This would IMO make an excellent shooter with some upside value.
Jim

[DWalt]

25 years ago, just after the Berlin Wall fell, there were a lot of East German Lugers coming on the market, allegedly VOPO guns. Those I saw looked as though they had been refinished several times, lots of oddball stamps, and every one I saw had the black plastic grips. As I remember they were selling for around $250. Should have bought one, they weren't difficult to find back then, not the case today. A local dealer had LOTS of them.

[DocB]

These are the grips that came on the gun. . .at least one of them. I've seen the other laying around but can't find it. I'm guessing these are the grips the East Germans put on them??? Does anyone know when these came into this country and when did they stop coming in. Best estimate, I probably bought this gun 10 years ago. So, I was maybe the second owner after the import. It's marked CIA 51 ALB V1 under the barrel.

[DWalt]

The stamp is actually CIA ST ALB VT. Century International Arms, St. Albans, Vermont, a big surplus arms dealer. I don't remember exactly how the black plastic grips for the East German Lugers looked, but I think they were checkered, not grooved. Or maybe both. Too long ago.

[LVSteve]

Luger prices have gone where I don't care to follow, and P-38s are going the same way.

I could say the same about Garands and M1917 rifles, too. Lucky I snagged one of the latter a few years back.

[Andyd]

Originally Posted by DocB

It is kind of a generic magazine with no SN that protrudes from the base of the gun when inserted. Plastic bottom. They are kind of uncommon and expensive. I guess that's because they have markings on the sides. Probably not really a "black widow" magazine since that gun doesn't really exist. People just started calling them that after the war since they had black plastic grips and a mag with a black plastic base. I think the experts call it the "extruded" magazine.

I invested into the book by Hallock & van de Kant "The Mauser Parabellum 1930 - 1946", it has an appendix about magazines and there is no generic mag mentioned there. I guess that you refer to the manufacturer codes that were used instead of company names and the acceptance markings.

The extruded magazines were mostly made by Haenel, post WWII mags that are marked 1001 were made on Haenel machinery for what has become known as VOPO 08.

The 1942 built one on the right side is a VOPO gun with a Czech barrel that is as accurate as my SIG P210-6 and has helped me to win a few competitions. The chamber leaves the typical Mauser ring on spent brass.

[jake1945]

I also have a Mauser 42 1939 luger. It is in excellent condition. I paid $1400 for it. Serial #2101t. The S42 preceded the 42 BTW.

[CptCurl]

I like Lugers. They are always going to have a certain mystique. They're funky yet beautiful.

Yes, they demand high prices for nice ones. But look at the prices being paid for collectible Smith & Wesson revolvers and for Colts!

There's something satisfying about holding a Luger in your hand and wondering about the work it took to build it and the path it took from that day to the present.

Curl

[DWalt]

"...and P-38s are going the same way"

I have a prime condition byf 44 P-38 with its original holster that I retired from shooting some years ago to keep as an investment vehicle. I have been flirting with the idea of selling it. Maybe the day is coming. Remember when they could be found everywhere for $25?

[cmansguns]

Several years ago I sold my "Black Widow" 41 byf simply because the prices were skyrocketing and so many fakes started showing up on line, at local shows, I had had enough and just lost interest. Mine was researched to death at the time, I still am a member of Jan Still's excellent Axis Powers forum and if you are really interested there's some guys over there that are very serious experts in all Lugers.

I had mine documented by experts so the grips are plastic, made by CG Hanel Waffen in Suhl Germany, and were identified as Type 6.

Italiansport is right on the money with the Black Widow designation being invented by a US collector in the 1960's however it is the deep blue, almost gloss back finish that was the result of a Mauser process known as "hot salt bluing" along with the black plastic thumb piece on the magazine that helped with the black widow stories.

Interestingly enough it appears that the genuine black widows were only cranked out between January 1941 and February 1942 at the Oberndorf Werks.

The genuine mags are not numbered, are stamped fxo with Eagle 37 which indicates the 1941 Hanel manufacture. The grips are the hardest to document because of the various types that are determined by type and placement of reinforcement ribs. In fact there is an expert over on the Luger forum that has done nothing else but a "black grip study" which has been a long time passion of his and really appreciated by other collectors.

As others have said...with prices what they are, and the number of out and out fakes abounding, the Luger game just became more time and money than I wanted to invest so I retired to my Smiths, Colts and WW II stuff that I enjoy a heck of a lot more.

What really astounded me when I had the Luger up for sale on nationwide listings, I was shocked at some of the replies for more info asking "What SS Division was your's assigned to?", or "Do you have documentation of the Nazi official that had this black widow?"

Some folks actually thought black widow was a German (Nazi) designation, or maybe GI terminology from WW II. Even today, check some of the seller statements for any Luger but watch for grips, non matching internals like the toggle axle, and even then be prepared to shell out those big bucks.

[DocB]

Actually the P38's were $35. The Lugers were $65 and up from there depending upon what you wanted. That was in 1962. As a kid, I couldn't afford either. My limit was in the $10 to $15 range, and I worked at our motel and made pretty good money for a kid. By 1972, really nice P38's were going for $300. The last one I bought some 7 years ago set me back a little over $500.

[Rock185]

DocB, that is a very nice shooter. I had two Lugers, a 1918 DWM and 1938 Mauser, neither anywhere near as nice as yours. I visited with Ralph Shattuck years ago. I have never seen anything like the collection of Lugers he had, hundreds. He showed me a Black Widow in beautiful condition that I was considering buying. Didn't know Ralph was the guy who came up with that "Black Widow" moniker.

[BigBill]

Originally Posted by LVSteve

Luger prices have gone where I don't care to follow, and P-38s are going the same way.

I could say the same about Garands and M1917 rifles, too. Lucky I snagged one of the latter a few years back.

I was into the surplus military firearms first because of there history about them. I could own, touch, fire a piece of history at a affordable price tag. At first finding the surplus ammo chances were slim to none. If you did find the surplus ammo it wasn't cheap. Then the flood gates on the imported military surplus guns and ammo opened up. For the surplus military shooters we all sat back fat dumb and happy. Life was great. But the surplus ammo started drying up. The higher prices on the military guns started climbing. As certain model guns were in high demand so we're the increased costs. I can't firgure out why CMP charges so much for our American made surplus guns. The lend lease program is run by greedy people. After all our tax dollars paid for these once already. Now we have to pay again. It's not right.

[PALADIN85020]

I also have a Mauser-manufactured Luger. It's an S/42-code made in 1936, which was the last full year that they manufactured the gun with a "strawed" finish to the trigger, magazine release, manual safety and ejector. Both the magazines are extruded, made with both black plastic and aluminum bottom pieces. It has no import marks, has all-matching numbers, and is accompanied by a 1936-dated black military holster. I have no doubt that it was a WWII bringback by some GI from the European theater. By the way, today is VE (Victory in Europe) day - May 8, 1945.

John

[murphydog]

I also started out in the surplus/collectible military area, which ended when things got really expensive. So it was on to the "less expensive" S & W revolvers, but less so as time progresses.

"I can't figure out why CMP charges so much for our American made surplus guns."

I seem to recall when the DCM morphed into the CMP, part of their charter (IRS status, or something like that) was they had to charge fair market prices for what they sold or had to sustain themselves on the profits therein. I agree CMP pricing can be high, but it seems less so as you get to the high end stuff like M1Ds and Collector Grade guns. It will be interesting to see how those worn-out 1911s will sell, and for how much, once the CMP gets them.

[PALADIN85020]

Originally Posted by murphydog

It will be interesting to see how those worn-out 1911s will sell, and for how much, once the CMP gets them.

In 1962, when I was in the Army on active duty, an SFC who was under my command had ordered a DCM 1911 - as I recall, he then paid $25 for it; I don't remember if that included shipping direct to his door!

At any rate it turned out that gun selected for him by the DCM was a near-mint original Springfield Armory 1911 - complete with a two-tone lanyard-loop magazine!

Right away, I offered him double his money back for it. He just smiled and said "No thanks, sir. I think I'll keep it."

Those were the days...

John

[2152hq]

My byf41 'Black Widow' Luger came with holster and 2 magazines. One mag is black plastic bottomed, the other is an aluminum base IIRC, but the pistol is all match. About a 95% gun I'd say. Skate key included.
Price was $150.
That was in '71 though,, and a bit of cash to come up with at the time too.
But Military Surplus handgun imports were over at that point since the GCA68 passage and prices were on the way up so I made the big move.

I just had it out to the range a few weeks ago and it worked flawlessly w/ Rem/UMC 115gr fmj. I find that ammo will work in most any up to spec Luger w/a good magazine.
I have some others with more 'character' that get shot a lot more often.