I have been toying with the idea of buying a rifle, the guys at my gun club have been bugging me to shoot there 200 yard winter league matches. This is primarily shooting 200 yards off hand out of a shooting house. (nice and warm during the winter) I am a pistol shooter, 30 years of mostly shooting pistols, with maybe 5% of my shooting being with shotguns and rifles. Here is where I need some advice and I know it is personal preference. I am not a big AR fan, had one, also carried one on my shoulder for 4 years. But I did like the looks of the SIG 556 for some reason maybe because of the different charging handle, and I am a big SIG fan, then I thought bolt action, maybe Savage or Remington, I like a shorter barrel so I was thinking 20". Then I was in a shop the other day and held a Springfield Armory M1A national match . So many decisions. I like the idea of the less expensive ammo of the .223 but I like the .308 also.Sorry for the long read, just looking for some opinions. Thanks

Wrong forum but I would go with an AR for parts, accessories and accuracy. Even Sig has seen the handwriting on the wall and is making AR's now, a buddy bought one yesterday that is pretty neat. This is the one he got for $800, I really like the design of the lower.

http://sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/m400.aspx

I'm also looking for a 200 yard gun. I've been looking at Remington 700 BDL or Winchester 70, pre 64. I'm unsure of caliber, I guess that will depend on which rifle I find.

It's like asking if you are a revolver or auto guy. There are bolt actions (and single shots), lever actions, pumps and semi-autos. Its going to depend upon what you are wanting to do.

If you want to hunt with it then I would recommend a lever or bolt action. Lever for quick shots in heavy cover. Bolt action for long range shots.

If for range use (200 yds), a bolt is nice for accuracy with enough fps to reach out there but its slow. The auto would be alot more fun but for most of us, less accurate. Some ranges will only allow 1 shot at a time (high caliber) so ask your range master.

S&W owns Thompson Center arms who makes great hunting style rifles.

I got a remington 700 with a 26 inch bull barrel in 243 for my long range gun its good for chucks out to 600yds which is more than good enough for here. and the ammo is easy to get.

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God save the SOUTH

The August issue of Shooting Times has an article on 18 budget priced bolt actions. It is a pretty good article where they rate accuracy, trigger, etc.

I'm partial to the 700 police model....

‪Remington 700 Police Accuracy‬‏ - YouTube

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

It really depends if it is a sole poupose gun or you want it to do more than just punch paper at 200 yards, and how far you plan on carrying it. Then you must take into account your sense of style, high gloss blue and fancy walnut or Camo and Kevlar. Then you have to decide on how much you are willing to spend, you can get a lot more rifle buying used. I would take a good used commercial or well done sporterized Mil-Spec over any of the new budget rifles.

I would seek out a pre 64 Model 70 Target or Remington 40X in .308 or .30-06. They are a tad heavy and defiantly not for lugging up a mountain, but they will shoot and look good doing it. If you are on a tight budget then the Savage 12 series is the only way to go, I find the barrel nut butt ugly, but it makes them very accurate.

http://www.gunblast.com/Savage_12FLVSS.htm

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

Savage makes a great affordable rifle.
I recently got the 223 Varmint Heavy Barrel VLP DBM.1:9 twist, the Remington is 1:12

Tack Diver. It comes in other calibers. Made in USA

Savage Arms > Firearms > Browse Models

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Still Running Against the Wind

my son and i have been in the long range buisness for years, and regurly compete at up to 1000 yards.

i have owned everything from anshultz, to custom built one-.offs

currently in my safe i own the following guns which will not be sold as long as i live

pre 64 win. model 70 target, a custom ruger/mauser action in ruger 204, a remington 700 with a custom barrel in 270 win., a older savage tactical in 7 rem mag




and by far my favorite is this little heavy barrel savage with the accu trigger, in 223, this is a prarie dog exterminator extroinare.

these savage guns that i have are both out of the box guns that shoot as well if not better than guns that i have spent over 2500 on

at 200 yards with this 223 savage i can shoot less than a minute of angle, on a good day and silver dollar on a really bad day

I don't know much about centerfire bolt rifles, but I recently bought a Rem 700 SPS .308 20in to try to learn something. I really like it. The rifle is only about $500. It also has a threaded barrel for a can which might not be a bad idea if you are inside a shooting house.

What are the other guys mostly shooting with?

Never shot it off hand, but below are pics from bags at 100 & 200 yards.



100yds

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/dsc04452yw.jpg/][/URL

200yds



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

What kind of scope is on your remington?

The Sig 556 was/is rather heavy for what it was. I traded mine away, don't miss it terribly.

There are options to have an AR with a side charging carry handle, or other 5.56mm rifles with such. There's always the Saiga series, though the .308 seems more popular than the other calibers.

FAL clones are still readily to be had and feature a side charging handle. But most aren't target guns. But then a rack grade AR is considered acceptable if it does about 4 MOA too.

The FN Scar type rifles in both 5.56 and 7.62 are apparently regarded as interested, though I've never shot one.

If you've never done much with a centerfire rifle and just want to try one on for size so to speak, you can get a Mosin Nagant quite cheaply. Most shoot better with the bayonet fixed, or at least seem to.

Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16x 42. I did a lot of researching for scopes. I was surprised to find that SWFA had a Bushnell rated as high as they did in their 2009 scope ratings... turns out that these are made in Japan. The 6X magnification range is what sold me. Still I was a bit skeptical for $700, but Bushnell offers a 1 year money back no questions asked guarantee. I'm not sending it back . Rings and base are Badger Ordnance.

Hummm, lots of bolt gun people on here. This is addressed to the OP but others might need to heed it as well. We are living in troubling times and who knows what the future will bring. Sir, you are an American, a veteran and an experienced firearm user. IMO your first long gun purchase should be a military style rifle. Unless you are willing to stockpile ammo I would limit caliber to .223, .308 or 30-06. Of those three .223 is much cheaper and easier to find ammo suitable for use in a semi-auto (not all .308 is suitable). With .223 rifles I would limit myself to ones that use the M16 style magazines, the new Mini 14 is nice and mags are available but are pricey, same goes for AK's. Once you get that first purchase squared away if you decide you can branch out into other types of long arms, after all that is one of the things that makes it great to be an American.

Coorslight, What is the course of fire or object of these matches ? Are they shooting at paper targets, for score or group or are they shooting at metal silhouttes, pop-ups, disc, gongs or what? Is it timed fire, if so is it rapid? All these things make a difference in choosing gun and caliber.

If you want to be competitive look at the equipment list or check and see what the winners are shooting. At most clubs there is usually a small sub-group within the group that shoots the matches that consistantly shoots well, winning or placing very high in the order.

I have found that you will get all the honest advice you need from the contestants at most clubs. They will want to beat you, but they will want to beat you at your best with no excuses, thus the advise will flow freely. Just don't ask while they are shooting. If you haven't attended one of their shoots, do so as an observer asking questions b/4 and after the match then jump in the next one as a shooter. Good luck and good shooting. Let us know how you fair.

To Joe in SC, Mack and all the rest that have offered their advice, Thank you. As for the type of shooting 200 yard off hand paper target 20 rounds in 30 Minutes. for a possible score of 200. Great bunch of guys, I have met and talked to most of them they all offer different advice, some shoot military, others heavy barrel target, some open sights and a few shutzen (if spelled right) rifles. I have owned AR, SKS, lee enfields, Savage Tactical in 308 , Rem 700 HB in .223, so rifles are not new to me ,I just am not into them as much as pistols. I don't care to shoot pistols indoors, and this winter rifle league sounds like fun and I won"t freeze my *** off outside. Thanks for all your help, I need to sell off a few pistols before I get one, will let you know how I make out.

There are lots of great surplus rifles out there at all price ranges.

91/30s are a great margin and can be helped to shot very tight groups.

308 Ishapore have the enfield action and can be found for a bit more.

308 NATO in a mauser action can be found from Israel for about the same price.

I think working on old platforms is a lot more fun.

There are some folks downunder building new rifles in a lee enfield action. Much more money though.

You can get some world class iron sights if you want to go that way. Search on palama shouting.

Out can be another rabbit hole with money, part of the reason I like surplus bases to work from.

B2

I was thinking just like you Mack. I have no rifle experience, but I want to get one. I would also like to be able to hunt and be prepared for the future. Could you or any one else suggest a make and model?

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

If you'e a pistol shooter, you will be way ahead of the rifle shooters in terms of trigger squeeze without disturbing the rifle. Several pistol shooters I know have seriously disturbed the rifle shooters like that.

I think you should look at the CZ line of rifles. They are very accurate right out of the box. They are very high quality rifles. Don

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"Don't worry be happy"

Sir, 200-yard offhand shooting is very much a test of you rather than a test of the gun/ammo combination. No one can shoot up to the rifle's potential while standing on their hind feet and waving around in the breeze. Period. In that sense, most any rifle will do.

That said, certain aspects of the gun will make it less difficult. It has to fit you, it has to balance well, it has to have a good trigger, and it should have iron sights rather than a scope. Also, a heavy rifle is preferable to a light one, provided it balances correctly.

Too long a length of pull will make it feel like the gun is "out in front of you" and make it difficult to build a position with good bone support. A tall gun (such as an AR or other military big box mag rifle) can be "tippy" and hard to hold steady if you use the magazine baseplate as a handrest.

Specific balance points are subjective, but the main thing is to be able to hold the gun on target without exerting any muscular effort. Somewhere from just forward of the triggerguard to a few inches forward work well.

A good trigger is non-negotiable. A bad trigger will make accurate shooting extremely difficult. A two-stage military trigger is nice in that you can take up most of the weight in the first stage and then break the shot on the lighter second stage.

A scope with magnification is tough in offhand shooting. It magnifies your wobble (and your wobble in offhand is significant), which is very distracting. Scopes are best avoided on an offhand gun. Get a good set of iron sights, ideally with a peep rear. The rear aperture needs to be small enough for precision, but big enough to admit enough light to see clearly. Only you can tell what the right size is.

A heavy rifle, provided it balances correctly for you, is better than a light rifle. It tends to "rest" more steadily and is less affected by wind buffeting or minor movements on your part than a light rifle.

Offhand shooting is great sport, and far more difficult than it looks. You'll learn a lot by doing it, and getting good at it will help you in the rest of your shooting as well.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Colt 6920. Keeps life simple. Check CDNN, they've had them relatively cheaply. Holds value well in case it becomes a Y2K gun and ends up sold off, traded away, etc. Not much of a hunting rifle, but the gold standard of the just in case carbine concept. 5.56mm is legal for deer in many (most?) states.

Ron H. you must have done this type of shooting before, because most of what you said the guys at my club have mentioned, all good advice. It just comes down to how much I want to spend, and personal preference, I know what you mean about using a scope at 200 off hand, it's tough enough keeping the crosshairs on the target let alone the 10 ring. Thanks for the advice to all.

I would try to buy American. For 200 yards a .308 is about overkill, but will give you a boatload of ammo options. If you plan to reload, a bolt action will be easier on the brass and any autoloader will. If you go with an AR in .308, I would stick with the SR25 design over the models that use chopped M14 mags. I second the Remington Police model as I nearly bought one. I bought the 700 Milspec 5R instead though. I added a Nikon Monarch scope with the BDC and side focus parallax adjustment. I like the side focus more than the BDC.

Any thoughts on a 308 in an ar platform? Anyone know of a good brand (pref USA) with sights? I see Colt has one but doesn't seem available yet?

SP901

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Fidelis Ad Mortem

Sir, yes, I've done a fair bit of offhand shooting, primarily in the course of NRA high power competition and CMP Garand matches. I would guess the guys running the offhand matches at your club are coming from a similar background.

The rifles used in NRA service rifle class (M1, M14 type, and AR) all make good offhand guns. They have good sights, triggers, weight, and usually balance well. Many clubs have loaner rifles available, typically M1s and ARs. If your club does so, by all means try both types.

In bolt guns, the old '03-A3 and the earlier Springfield '03 are good, but typically have very slender front sights, hard to see as the eyeballs get older. In a more modern bolt gun, a .223 from any of the better makers would be a good choice once fitted with peep sights. Remington probably has the most aftermarket support, so it'll be easier/cheaper to get good sights for it.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.