Your Spanish S&W copies

Goony · #1 08-28-2011, 02:03 PM

This one, in .38 Special caliber, was manufactured by N. Arizmendi y Cia of Eibar, and proudly marked "MADE IN SPAN" (really, not a typo on my part). Outwardly it strongly resembles an M&P from the 1920's. A very un-S&W deviation from that pattern is that it's a solid frame design (no sideplate). The only access to the action is via a removable triggerguard.

cmort666 · #2 08-28-2011, 02:22 PM

I don't own any of these, but they and the Colt (and Pieper) copies are one of my favorite parts of the A.B. Zhuk book of line drawings of handguns.

There are tons of different variations on everything from side plates to cylinder latches.

A lot of them seem to have been .38 Long Colt rather than .38 Special, although supposedly a lot are bored straight through and will take Specials, although it's a bad idea to use them.

Goony · #3 08-28-2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmort666

There are tons of different variations on everything from side plates to cylinder latches.

I can see how someone could get into collecting these, as it could be more interesting from a technical standpoint than just accumulating a bunch of the more common S&W's that are more alike than different. Plus, I imagine certain Spanish S&W copies are genuinely rare, both because in some instances they were made in cottage industry quantities, and also on account of their having tended to be discarded rather than repaired (lack of parts and economic incentive). Of course, there's probably no money in such a pursuit, which is why there isn't a SSWCCA.

Still, I'm surprised by the lack of response to this thread up to now. Nobody's got one of these to share, or is too embarrassed to admit to having one (or a bunch)?

pilgrim6a · #4 08-28-2011, 11:51 PM

I wish I still had this one or at least gotten pics. It was a .38 S&W top break DA. The markings were this.
SMILL & WELSON. SPRANGFELD MUS. Followed by the normal patent dates. The dates were all one digit off from a real S&W.

350x · #5 08-29-2011, 03:42 AM

Any known parts source for these?

I need a few

walnutred · #6 08-29-2011, 05:24 AM

I've had a few over they years with my favorites being the ones chambered in 8mm. Just none now to show pictures of.

Goony · #7 08-29-2011, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilgrim6a

I wish I still had this one or at least gotten pics. It was a .38 S&W top break DA. The markings were this.
SMILL & WELSON. SPRANGFELD MUS. Followed by the normal patent dates. The dates were all one digit off from a real S&W.

There is genre of S&W copy that was meant to deceive a person illiterate in English (or even the English alphabet) into thinking it was a genuine Smith & Wesson product. These were typically of Asian origin. A revolver of this nature is pictured in the thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/...ever-seen.html

The Spanish guns I'm referring to were generally marked properly with their makers' names, openly and legally trafficked, and while outwardly resembling S&W products (mostly the M&P, but also top break models and even the triple lock), generally did not infringe on S&W patents. It might be more accurate to term them as being Smith & Wesson "inspired" than as copies.

cmort666 · #8 08-29-2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 350x

I think there's a drawing of a virtually identical gun in the Zhuk book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 350x

Any known parts source for these?

Your local machine shop... if you've got a broken part to copy. Doubtless more than the gun itself is worth.

cmort666 · #9 08-29-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goony

There is genre of S&W copy that was meant to deceive a person illiterate in English (or even the English alphabet) into thinking it was a genuine Smith & Wesson product. These were typically of Asian origin.

There's a similar genre of semi-auto pistols that were made in China before 1949. Some of them are copies of Browning M1900s, other guns, or frequently, a mishmash of design features. They were mostly handmade, and in job lot quantities for various Chinese warlord operations. A particular "army's" purchasing agent would give general guidelines for caliber, size, weight, magazine capacity and operating controls. Then some little shop would run off a batch of guns, roughly meeting the specification.

There are a BUNCH of them in the Zhuk book. There was a guy who once came to the Ohio Gun Collector's Association Show at the IX Center in Cleveland. He was a collector of these guns, and had a flier that used some of the drawings from the Zhuk book. He said that since nobody wanted them, they were dirt cheap, but since there were so MANY variations they were great fun to collect.

Pretty much the same comments apply to European copies of British "bulldog", "kobold" and similar pocket revolvers.

Goony · #10 08-29-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmort666

There's a similar genre of semi-auto pistols that were made in China before 1949. Some of them are copies of Browning M1900s...

I have one of these M1900 copies, I'll have to dig it out and get a photo of it.

Goony · #11 08-29-2011, 01:04 PM

This revolver appears to be pretty Colt-ish (yeah, the Spanish did takes on Sam's stuff, too).

Does it have a maker's name on it? Also, what caliber is it?

350x · #12 08-29-2011, 02:21 PM

32-20?

cmort666 · #13 08-29-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goony

I have one of these M1900 copies, I'll have to dig it out and get a photo of it.

Incidentally, the North Koreans made a copy of the M1900 in both regular and suppressed versions. They were current issue when I was in the ROK in '80-'81.

linde · #14 08-29-2011, 04:14 PM

One of the better quality made-in-Spain M&P copies was the ALFA . . . the tradename of Armero Especialistas Reunidas of Eibar, Spain circa 1920.

Here is a previous thread on the ALFA in 38 Long Colt . . . complete with pictures. Note the hybred Colt-S&W lockwork in post #14.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/...-revolver.html

Russ

Goony · #15 08-29-2011, 07:36 PM

Here's that likely Chinese copy of an FN Model 1900. The grips appear to be carved from buffalo horn. I've included a close-up of the goofy markings, consisting of a crudely rendered FN logo, underneath which the word NATIONALE appears twice. Above, that same word's repeated five times in a row. There's also some "proof marks" for good measure.

I'm still a bit perplexed by the lack of Spanish S&W copy pictures this thread has elicited. I thought every S&W collector would have at least one as a conversation piece....

therevjay · #16 08-29-2011, 08:02 PM

Sorry don't have a digital camera, and wouldn't know how to post a pic if I did.

But I do have a "Orbea" marked .38 Largo (I assume .38 long Colt) it seems to be quite well made. The backstrap is also stamped "Policia De La provencia De Buenos Aires"

Goony · #17 08-29-2011, 08:56 PM

Orbea Hermanos was an early and at one time premier Spanish manufacturer of sidearms.

Evidently yours was exported to Argentina. Wonder how it found ts way to the United States?

therevjay · #18 08-29-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goony

Orbea Hermanos was an early and at one time premier Spanish manufacturer of sidearms.

Evidently yours was exported to Argentina. Wonder how it found ts way to the United States?

A few years ago there was a bunch advertised in "Shotgun news." I don't remember the price but it was less then $100 includeing s&h.

Goony · #19 08-31-2011, 12:14 AM

Here's an excellent webpage showing various Orbea Hermanos revolvers:

Orbea Hermanos

Really worth a look.

Cyrano · #20 08-31-2011, 01:43 PM

Drat! Last week I sold my two Mle 92 Espagnol revolvers, including a Trocala y Aranzabal, chambered for the 8mm French Mle 92 cartridge. I have a picture, but it's too big for a thumbnail. I had an Anitua and have a Cordero but they look like a Colt on the outside; they look like nothing else on earth on the inside.

Cyrano · #21 09-01-2011, 11:34 PM

Thanks to the good offices of Gooney, here's mine. He shrank it to thumbnail size for me. It's a Trocala y Aranzabal , one of the Spanish revolvers that France contracted for in WW I. It's in the 8mm French Mle 92 revolver caliber. There were a couple of makers who produced revolvers for France that looked like S&W M&Ps, at least on the outside. On the inside, they looked like nothing else on earth. I wish I had taken a picture of this one with the sideplate off. There were also a couple of makers who produced Colt look-alikes. Collectively France called them "Modèle 92 Espagnoles". Altogether they made almost 500,000 for France in WW I. France kept them in service, and they were used in WW II, both by the Milice (pro-Nazi militia), and the Maquis (guerillas). They were used until most of them were worn out or blown up. You don't see them very often.

The holster is one that France developed in WW I to replace the clamshell holster for the Mle 92 revolver. It also fits the Colt and S&W look-alikes. The squashed looking things on the front of the holster are three pouches to carry 8mm revolver ammo which was issued in 6 round packets. The packets are very hard to find.

Goony · #22 09-02-2011, 09:35 PM

Trocaola, Aranzabal y Cia also supplied top break revolvers in .455 Webley caliber to the British during WWI.

shooboy · #23 09-02-2011, 10:09 PM

Here ya go, total cost with a box of .32 longs was $50 ! Yes I shot it and then sold it to a member here. Pretty cool...... Shoo

Goony · #24 09-03-2011, 03:22 PM

That looks a lot like S&W's .32 Hand Ejector, and appears to be a product of Garate, Anitua y Cia, which, by the way, was another firm that was able to meet the strict quality standards set by the British and thus also furnish top-break .455's to the Allies' cause.

Oyeboteb · #25 09-18-2011, 02:05 AM

Well, here is mine -

Nickle is flakey, but underlieing Steel is smooth and nice.

Top Rib says "FOR 44 WINCHESTER CARTRIDGES"

Appears low miliage, but cosmetically challenged possibly from damp.

The single Word "SPAIN" is stamped very neatly on the front Grip Strap.

Monogramme of "OH" appears on the Stocks and on the right side of the Frame toward the rear area.

Sorry my images are not better, have not yet made a Light Box for this sort of thng.

I plan to load my own .44 WCF Cartridges for it and, take it out to the Range sometime soon.

Appears to be good quality in fit and what's left of original finish...Bore and Chambers show old still present rust ( I have just got it and not cleaned it yet, I sure hope it is not too badly pitted! We shall see )...

Were the large frame S&W-inspired Top Breaks of the "OH" Make well regarded?

Who would have used these, when chambered in the .44-40/.44 WCF? And when having their Text stampings in English?

Were these intended for the US Market of the time? Or..?

Kinda matches my old Zippo! Lol...

Goony · #26 09-19-2011, 05:03 PM

Oyeboteb -

That's another Orbea Hermanos - there's a link regarding this firm earlier in the thread. Your top break model most likely dates from the late 19th century, at a time when the company was supplying similar revolvers to the Spanish military.

suthrnboy · #27 12-09-2011, 12:49 PM

I also have a Spanish made .38 that was my grandfathers that I would love to know more about. I was told that you guys on here were the authorities and could maybe help me on where to look for more info!

Thanks,
Chris

Goony · #28 12-21-2011, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suthrnboy

I also have a Spanish made .38 that was my grandfathers that I would love to know more about. I was told that you guys on here were the authorities and could maybe help me on where to look for more info!

Thanks,
Chris

Appreciate the photo, but could you tell us something about its markings?

suthrnboy · #29 12-22-2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goony

Appreciate the photo, but could you tell us something about its markings?

Hi and thanks for the reply. There aren't really any other markings that I can see on the weapon outside of what I have already described!

Thanks!

suthrnboy · #30 12-26-2011, 11:53 AM

On the left side of the barrel it states "FOR 38 SW SPECIAL CTGS" and right behind the trigger guard on the bottom of the frame "SPAIN" is stamped into it. Other than that there are no other markings.

Thanks!

Goony · #31 12-26-2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suthrnboy

On the left side of the barrel it states "FOR 38 SW SPECIAL CTGS" and right behind the trigger guard on the bottom of the frame "SPAIN" is stamped into it. Other than that there are no other markings.

There have been over the years numerous very low volume, obscure Spanish gunmakers. Your revolver has is likely the product of one of these, but it is unlikely that anyone will ever be able to identify just which one. I would think it probable that it was imported into the U.S. sometime during the inter-war years. Sorry I can't be of more help.

tngundog · #32 03-08-2012, 01:33 PM

Here are a few pictures of a revolver that I just inherited. It was in a box in my mother in laws garage for the past 20-25 years.

It seems in great shape but after researching and reading all I could find on Spanish made guns I have my doubts about firing it.

It has a TAC logo on left underneath the cylinder release. It has stamped on top of the barrel "Best American Cartridges Are Those That Fit Best The T.A.C. Revolver" Also Stamped on the left side of the barel "For 38 Special and US Service CTG"
On the right side of the revolver is stamped "SPAIN" Serial number on bottom of grip/butt is 182XXX (I X'd out part of the serial # because I see that other poster's do - but since I'm new to gun forums - I dont know why they do it)

Any info or thoughts are welcome
TAC .38 - a set on Flickr

Goony · #33 03-08-2012, 05:35 PM

T.A.C. = Trocaola, Aranzabal, y Cia

This was a pretty reputable manufacturer, noted for having turned out a competent Triple Lock copy. Yours is patterned after the Military & Police model, and if in good repair, ought to be safe with mildly loaded .38 Special.

red9 · #34 03-15-2012, 07:08 PM

Here is my T.A.C. triple lock.

Bob

Thuer · #35 03-15-2012, 09:26 PM

Thanks for posting. I have seen a lot of Spanish copy's. Never seen this.

The only S&W copy I do have is a Bayard Pieper in .32.

tngundog · #36 03-23-2012, 11:42 PM

Thanks. After I posted I thought I would be notified when/if people responded but think I need to subscribe to this post 1st.(i just did)

rick6336 · #37 05-31-2012, 09:42 AM

It's good to see another TAC revolver. I inherited one when my father passed 2 yrs ago. I dont know much about it other then it was my great grandfather's., and that my grandfather carried it at a security job in the early 1940's. My father said once that he had asked many years ago about the Ser. # and was told that it was made around 1905. My father had said he shot a few times around 1950. It is in about 95-98% shape due to some minor holster wear on the front of the cyl. I haven't decided whether I wont to shoot it or not, but being a 4th generation owner, it's nice to look at. There is no wobble of the cyl. like I've seen in other older revolvers What really surprises me is that it is so small in my hand. It's a 32 Long.

heatheroo · #38 05-31-2012, 10:24 AM

I have an Eibar copy of a S&W DA revolver. I don't have any pictures and I'm at work but I recall it says something on the barrel like "use best quality Smith and Wesson .38 cartidges only". Obviously an attempt to connect this pistol with a genuine S&W. The SN is:E30495. It's was my grandfathers. It's reasonably tight and I've shot it a few times.

Texas Star · #39 05-31-2012, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goony

Trocaola, Aranzabal y Cia also supplied top break revolvers in .455 Webley caliber to the British during WWI.

Yeah, but they looked like S&W topbreaks, not like Webleys.

Texas Star · #40 05-31-2012, 12:03 PM

Does anyone recall the Capt. Gallant of the Foreign Legion TV show of the 1950's, starring Buster Crabbe?

I saw it as a kid, and think he used both a Mlle. 1892 8mm and an S&W M&P in various episodes. Could have been a Victory Model. The m&p could have been a Spanish copy.

Goony · #41 05-31-2012, 02:04 PM

Takes us a bit off-topic, but here you go, Texas Star - just print it out and fill in your name!

http://images.marketplaceadvisor.cha...c_120910_2.jpg

Texas Star · #42 05-31-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goony

Takes us a bit off-topic, but here you go, Texas Star - just print it out and fill in your name!

http://images.marketplaceadvisor.cha...c_120910_2.jpg

Thanks! I think I may have had one of those forms
as a kid. I see him there with his nephew Cubby or Cuffy, or whatever.

Does anyone recall his revolver? I think the holster was for the Mlle. '92 8mm. But France may have gotten some Victory Model .38's after WWII. I know they got a LOT of .30 carbines and M-3 trench knives.

Praetorianseven · #43 07-12-2012, 04:55 PM

A friend of mine has given me an old revolver to identify and I need some help. At first glance it appears to be a S&W Model 10 or M&P. I believe it is a Spanish copy and I have determined that it would fire .32-20 ammo. The only marking on it (besides the serial number) is a trademark that I cannot identify. It does not match other standard Spanish trademarks. Any info will be appreciated and I'm attaching pics.

Goony · #44 07-12-2012, 07:15 PM

I'm thinking F. Arizmendi y Cia (previously Francisco Arizmendi y Goenaga), a fairly prominent and successful firm, at least through the WWI period, their products regarded as being of good quality. Francisco was likely a relation of Norberto, whose separate company made the revolver with which I started this thread.

haggis · #45 07-13-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praetorianseven

A friend of mine has given me an old revolver to identify and I need some help. At first glance it appears to be a S&W Model 10 or M&P. I believe it is a Spanish copy and I have determined that it would fire .32-20 ammo. The only marking on it (besides the serial number) is a trademark that I cannot identify. It does not match other standard Spanish trademarks. Any info will be appreciated and I'm attaching pics.

Trocaola, Aranzábal y Cia., Eibar, Spain. They had a reputation for making decent quality firearms.

Buck

Goony · #46 07-13-2012, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis

Trocaola, Aranzábal y Cia., Eibar, Spain. They had a reputation for making decent quality firearms. Buck

I'm not sure about that identification, Buck (while I'll admit to not being sure about mine, either).

Look at the T.A.C. logo pictured in post #32 - close, but not identical. I'm not seeing that same obvious "T" in the this latest one, it looks to me more like a "Y" along the lines of the highly stylized ampersand in the S&W logo. T.A.C. was also pretty good about marking their products beyond just a logo. But I can see how it might be interpreted as a ornate "T" in which case I'd be on board with you - but I just don't know if the T.A.C. logo style evolved over time in this fashion....

PuertoRican · #47 07-13-2012, 09:39 PM

This is an "Escodin". Supposed to be .32 Winchester from 1924.

Donald Paul · #48 07-13-2012, 11:04 PM

Copy of M10 or M&P.
Eibar Detective.
4.5 inch - .38 Long ctg.
Not too bad shape.
Numbers don't match - {frame to bbl.}
Wall hanger only.

Donald Paul · #49 07-13-2012, 11:42 PM

... wall hanger.
{Bad shape}.

Goony · #50 07-14-2012, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuertoRican

This is an "Escodin". Supposed to be .32 Winchester from 1924.

Manuel Escodin, one of the more obcure Eibar gunmakers, reportedly went out of business in 1931. Escodin revolvers are nevertheless regarded as being of better quality (albeit that judgment being relative to other Spanish made S&W copies) - some were even of a fancier, engraved grade.