The M4 carbine - will it be around a lot longer?

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It looks like in spite of M4 replacement trials, the carbine currently in use by our troops may be around for a while. Army Chief of Staff Ray Odierno appears satisfied with the product-improved M4A1. Here's the latest on this.

Army Chief Content With Improved M4 | Military.com

This makes me happy - it means I won't have to go out and replace this one; I'm quite happy with it, and it makes a terrific zombie gun, too! :D

John

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Oh yeah, it'll be around for quite a while in one variant or another.
Even if the military were to transition to some new piece of tactical tupperwear I doubt they'd drop them completely.
And I'm certainly not getting rid of mine.
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Kinda surprised.

Army used the trapdoor from the late 60s to the mid 90s. About 30 years. The Krag less than ten. The 03, maybe 40 years. The garand, mid 30s to late 50s - 25 years? M14, also less than ten. But the M16. We're starting into its 6th decade. That's a looong time, for a rifle.
 
Kinda surprised.

Army used the trapdoor from the late 60s to the mid 90s. About 30 years. The Krag less than ten. The 03, maybe 40 years. The garand, mid 30s to late 50s - 25 years? M14, also less than ten. But the M16. We're starting into its 6th decade. That's a looong time, for a rifle.

That's a pretty amazing historical fact. Of course the basic AK-47 rifle has been around a bit longer (almost 20 years or so in real terms), but at least in the Soviet Union it was replaced in the 70s by the AK 74, which was really a caliber change as far as I know.

John, what "platform" would hold the "record" for length of life as a service rifle? I suppose it'd be the AK?

The good old 1911 might hold it for a service pistol...
 
How long have variants of the SMLE been in service? I think I read somewhere that SMLE's are still in military or police use in some parts of the world.

That's true, but I wouldn't say it's a main issue battle rifle for a major service. At least I don't think it is.

The FN/FAL has been around about as long as the AK. Some might still be using it or versions of it.

I'm pretty sure there are versions of the M14 being used by some US units, but it's not being issued in big numbers.

Sorry about the thread hijack, John!
 
The Finns still use modified Mosin Nagants as designated Marksman (sniper) rifles.
Can't go wrong with a legacy like that of Simo Häyhä.
 
Reading the article I see 300 million reasons for the Chief of Staff to say the M4 is OK.

The key is that the improved M4 is "good enough" for probably 98% of what the Army do. Is it the best possible weapon that money could buy, NO. That may sound like damning with faint praise, but that is not my intention. If money were no object every soldier would have a Les Baer custom AR for his rifle and a Korth as his sidearm. The realities of defence procurement apply, and the comments made in that article say little else.
 
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Reading the article I see 300 million reasons for the Chief of Staff to say the M4 is OK.

The key is that the improved M4 is "good enough" for probably 98% of what the Army do. Is it the best possible weapon that money could buy, NO. That may sound like damning with faint praise, but that is not my intention. If money were no object every soldier would have a Les Baer custom AR for his rifle and a Korth as his sidearm. The realities of defence procurement apply, and the comments made in that article say little else.

I'd have to agree with that. I think "perfect" is the enemy of "plenty good enough." Spending millions on testing, producing and implementing a new weapon vs. using those same millions to get a functional (and quite good) weapon produced plentifully and issued more widely seems to make good sense to me. I think General Odierno is thinking clearly.

Sure, I'd like to see a new carbine using a more effective caliber, with interchangeable barrels, yadda yadda yadda, but at what cost? Get more proven carbines into the hands of the grunts on the ground, and get DHS to quit hoarding the ammo supply necessary to train our soldiers so they can get the job done.

John
 
That's a pretty amazing historical fact. Of course the basic AK-47 rifle has been around a bit longer (almost 20 years or so in real terms), but at least in the Soviet Union it was replaced in the 70s by the AK 74, which was really a caliber change as far as I know.

John, what "platform" would hold the "record" for length of life as a service rifle? I suppose it'd be the AK?

In modern times (20th century to now) I think the AK platform might get the nod. However, the longest-serving U.S. military firearm would have to be the 1911 pistol, closely followed by the M2 .50 caliber machine gun (affectionately known as "Ma Deuce"), which has been in continuous active duty service since the early 1920s. So John Browning gets the honors for the most enduring designs in the U.S. All hail.

John
 
I kinda like my civilian version of the M4. I may be in a minority, but in 1969-70 my M16 never let me down and the only time it choked was from an old beat up defective magazine. The M4 gets the job done and everyone knows how it works.
 
I don't like the collapsing stock as well as I did the std. fixed stock.

My son pointed out that the shorter - barrelled examples reduce 5.56mm velocity to the degree that it affects lethality at extended ranges. He once had a devil of a time trying to kill an insurgent firing at him from behind a 55 gallon drum at some 200 meters. His weapon that day was a short M-4. He wished desperately for a G-3 that he'd left in his quarters. But some armor-piercing ammo finally got the job done.

At the time, he was a security contractor, but he did two tours as a soldier and saw the M-4 used on a wide scale. He killed a considerable number of men with it.

I'll point out that 7.62mm stops better, but recoil fatigue from extended firing in prolonged battle favors the 5.56mm.
However, a normal length bbl. much enhances the lethality of the lighter caliber. It needs that added velocity to do well. More 5.56mm ammo can be carried. This is often a vital issue.
 
I've carried the M16A2 and M4 in the military, and sometimes carry M4A1s at work. The M4 will be around for awhile. At heart, the AR pattern is a junk design, and even its inventor thought he had something better just a few years later with the AR18. There is a reason no other significant weapon since has used the gas impingment system of the AR. ( I don't consider Daewoos significant.)
But, the M16 is the original 'too big to fail.'
Plenty of grunts died being the military's beta testers of the thing, and politics kept those responsible safe. Fortunately, it has matured into an adequate weapon. Just took about 50 years.
There are better, more reliable weapons out there at this point, but with the current budget problems, I doubt anyone is going to go for all out replacement.
We could re-arm the entire Army with different rifles for the cost of one or two Joint Strike Flops, uh, Fighters, but new rifles would only benefit one or two Congressional districts, and that's not how things work today.
 
So many would have us believe the M-16/M-4 rifle's longevity is based on the "Forest Gump" principle in simply being in the right place and the right time to make history. Such cannot be the case as evidenced by the facts.
YES the M-16 was rushed into production over the objections of Military traditionalists - who of course did all they could to sabotage the project. So BEFORE we place the first shred of "blame" on any failing of the weapon itself we must look at those who sought to prevent Gene Stoner's "upstart" plastic and aluminum rifle from ever being a success.
There is nothing wrong with the basic design - a FACT proved out by it's being around going on 60 years later. Sure companies like HK bought out an aftermarket gas piston system, slapped it on and called it "new" and "revolutionary" but they changed nothing about the heart of the system.
The fact is, the M-16 family is probably about as ergonomically perfect as any rifle devised by human thought. I carried one for my share of years assigned to the 2/504th PIR and I came to appreciate exactly what Stoner gave to the world.
Way back when during the XM177 project days when the rifle carried a 1:14 twist and 11.5" barrel "everybody knew" the ballistic potential of the .223 Remington was restricted and this exacerbated by cold weather. Of course the Army crafted a rifle test in Alaska of all places with the clear intent of "proving" how ineffective the small cartridge and it's plastic rifle would be. They despised McNamara for basically seeing through their bull$hiT and ordering the rifle into production and the sabotage continued - really unto this very day.
The 55 grain bullet from a 20" barrel creates dramatic and devastating wounds combined with incapacitation exceeding that from a non-expanding .308 round. The A1 sight system was designed from day one to work perfectly using a 250 meter battle sight zero...so the Army changed that...went up in weight, cobbled up an overly complex (but kind of nifty) "800 meter" rear sight DESPITE ALL EVIDENCE DATING FROM WW ONE that 300 meters is the maximum practical distance a troop in the field can expect to reliably engage point type targets using iron sights. Oh sure, they NEEDED to go heavier on the bullet to use a "heavy" steel core...seriously? Lead is heavier than steel everyday including Sunday...they could have stayed with 55 grains, gone steel core and had a slightly longer bullet - base heavy of course to induce tumbling on tissue...but they didn't want that, that was too much in favor of the round.
Then we invade the Middle East and the very first thing our military brass think to do is SHORTEN the barrels from 20" to 14.5" thus duplicating the same sabotage they pulled the first time around! THEN they make a big deal about how ineffective the WEAPON is because of course they know their audience is composed of non-weapons oriented persons and even many who've served but bought into the nonsense that the only "real" battle rifle must be made of steel and wood, and fire a cartridge 4x more powerful than the average user in the field can EVER utilize. Yeah, that's the ticket, let's saddle the infantryman with some made-over M-14 where he can only carry 1/3rd the ammo! It's not hard at all to carry 1000 rounds of 5.56 ammo....how many armchair never been in the infantry and actually humped this stuff "experts" can grab up 1000 rounds of 7.62 and run with it - for long? When I was climbing up and down the mountains of Panama carrying my 200 rounds of linked M-60 ammo in addition to my own 460 rounds of 5.56 in mags plus more in my rucksack I APPRECIATED every single nuance that went into the design of the M-16 and still do to this day!
As a civilian I've built my share of AK's from parts sets and home-brewed receivers, to AR-15's from parts sets and store-bought and 80% receivers and the "rationale" for choosing the AK was always about cost...cheaper parts sets and much cheaper receiver stock...despite the FACT that the AK is erognomically atrocious...muzzle heavy, Cr@p sights, poor trigger, thin barrels, flexi-flier stamped receivers that really destroy any hope of accuracy. The BEST thing about AK's is the front-to-back mag lock up...IF the user doesn't panic and fail to insert it correctly, and the looseness of tolerances that helps it to function under adverse conditions...oh, and that huge gas piston that could care less about precise metering or excessive bolt thrust. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE what Kalashnikov did and his work is still walking around in the field for the same reason the M-16 family is...it works.
On the other hand I chose to build AR's when I could AFFORD the parts...ergonomically superior in every respect to EVERY other military rifle out there - WAY superior to the G3's ungainly, nose-heavy, 900 lb trigger...again there is a REASON the HK-91/93 went to dinosaurland and the M-16 is still alive and THRIVING! The ONLY rifle HK ever got right was the MP-5 carbine which is still ballistically inferior to even a short barrel M-16...and inferior in trigger an all other ergos. Oh wait, HK did get the "416" right...wait, that's an M-16! Only difference is the piston system and a few tweaks to try and pretend they didn't rip off the entire system...as they say, IMITATION is the sincerest form of flattery! I'd say a whole LOT of manufacturers are flattering the M-16 right about now...including the DIRECT GAS IMPINGEMENT system that works perfectly fine for hundreds upon hundreds of rounds as long as the ammo is using the powders the designer intended be used...yet ANOTHER point of sabotage in the M-16's history of development on the fly. The Air Force LOVED the gun, and of course the Army hated it...and have done all they can to bash it.
As for the cartridge, the only reasonable "replacement" floating around today is the 7.62x35 (.300 AAC) because it uses the same case head, smaller powder charges, more ballistically efficient projectile of heavier weight an the ability to launch super-heavy bullets subsonic for suppressed work. The .300 Blackout is also ideal for use from SHORT barrels, but when fired from LONG barrels the 5.56x45 has superior trajectory and therefore better hit probability.
Sure the DI gas system pumps more heat into the receiver...that's why it's made of 7075 Aluminum! That's also why Winchester developed a low-residue powder meant to be used. During the years I personally carried an M-16A1 into harm's way I NEVER had a malfunction of any kind. I have no idea how many rounds I fired at "one time" between cleanings, I just know MY M-16 never failed - not once, and there was no "rash" of rifle failures going on around me either...
Sure you can take an M-16 out and run mag after mag through it full auto until it fails...some dude on YouTube did it (it took a lot of rounds), but guess what, you can do the same with an AK...yes indeedy AK's CAN and DO suffer from parts breakage, stoppages due to chamber heat, failure to feed due to misaligned magazines and so forth...but then the AK has had 60 years of POSITIVE press from America, while the M-16 - which is actually only about 10 years "younger" in design, has actually managed to survive and THRIVE despite an establishment intend upon its demise.
The question is, what EXACTLY would anyone replace it with? Ergonomically it is already perfect. The cartridge's performance from rifle barrels is legend (by all but armchair experts), and the role of the personal weapon on the battlefield is pretty clearly defined. Until we advance to the next technology - phased plasma rifles, I don't see any radical redesign of what has clearly PROVEN itself...and as for being "cheap" the M-16 is by no means inexpensive to build. An all stamped steel rifle would be significantly cheaper to build...the AKM to be precise so the bunk about the M-16/M-14 still being around due to cost contraints is ridiculous...the AR-18 was indeed "cheaper" to build but lost out because it sucked...I was around when it was trying to become popular but never did....and for good reason.
The HK series were ungainly.
Beretta's AR80 was an ungainly abortion.
The M-14 is far more wonderful in memory than during it's almost non-existent service life...because it was nothing but a "stop gap" on the path to the M-16. It didn't take smart people who faced the AKM in Vietnam to realize the M-14 was last century's technology...too heavy, wood stock (rots away in about 10 days in a jungle), too large of a round for what the mission requires making the gun far larger and heavier than needed. POORLY designed gas system that promoted inaccuracy unless specially attended too by an expert tuner....full auto was a JOKE due to recoild and barrel whip. One FACT lost on those who don't understand the DI gas system is that it makes the M-16 HIGHLY accurate right out of the box...because there's no piston system creating a neutral/positive pressure cycle on the barrel...oh and let me not forget the M-16" barrel can be changed IN THE FIELD by anyone with a wrench...all precision headspacing is done in the factory UNLIKE the M-14 which of course is based on "old-timer's" technology where the headspacing must be set as the barrel is screwed into the receiver...a VERY clunky system that was completely swept away by the far more effcient M-16 system...LOT's of guys can build their own M-16 in their garage with nothing more exotic than a barrel wrench...can't do that with an M-14 that's for sure! While much is mad of the headspacing issue I've put together at least 50 M-16 style rifles over the years and not ONE has ever been out of spec from the factory...not one. I can pull the bolt from one of MY AR's right now and drop it into another and the odds I'll have a headspace problem is about as close to zero as statistically possible...can't say THAT for the M-14.
If I had to "bug out" tonight would I take my Browning .30'06 BAR? NOPE! Would I grab my 7.62 AK? NOPE! Would I grab my 5.45x39 AK74? Close, but NOPE! Would I grab for ANY bolt action in my safe? NOPE! I'd grab my AR-15 with scads of ammo because it embodies the very TIP of modern technology...lightweight, high capacity, reliable, precise and accurate, the ammo is light meaning I can carry more of it.

All hype and all BS aside the REASON the M-16/M-4 is still around is because despite efforts to sabotage it, it works too well...it gets the job done. Every other rifle built over the years to compete with it or replace it has gone extinct...because they were all technological dinosaurs at birth...Galil...anyone rememer that ***? A special Israli modified AK platform with better sights and a decent barrel?
Styer AUG...now THAT's a system that's ALL HYPE and little delivery...which is why it's basically ignored by everyone except Americans with enough cash to waste on a civilian version.
What the M-16 "needed" it got...proper ammo, proper understanding that it needs to be cleaned once in awhile, and thanks to the CIVILIAN market, proper magazines that are better built and fit better which overcomes the platform's only real weakness...the sloppy fit of original contract magazines that led to FTF and double-feeds.
For all the armchair commandos pontificating on why the M-16/M-4 should not have survived this long the bottom line is...it's BETTER than everything else out there!

To those "experts" who like to malign the cartridge I would draw attention to Miami 1985 and little confrontation between the entire Miami FBI office and two small-time bank robbers - one armed with a Mini-14. The round is plenty effective...anyone who disbelieves this is free to run in front of one to prove their own personal manliness!
 
In modern times (20th century to now) I think the AK platform might get the nod. However, the longest-serving U.S. military firearm would have to be the 1911 pistol, closely followed by the M2 .50 caliber machine gun (affectionately known as "Ma Deuce"), which has been in continuous active duty service since the early 1920s. So John Browning gets the honors for the most enduring designs in the U.S. All hail.

John

I think you're perzackly right, Sir.

I believe the big 50 will be around a while longer, and of course some units still use the 1911, just like some use the M14, a modified Garand I guess.

But 455 Hunter is likely right if we consider other than modern long arms--Brown Bess probably has it! But it ain't really a rifle....

Caj's long bow...well now, some tribes on the Amazon still use much the same thing!

It's interesting how controversial the AR still is after all these years.
 
I will say one thing that will get me in trouble with the AR folks, it is NOT a direct impingement system, it uses the Stoner System. Stoner created a moving cylinder in the back of the bolt carrier with the back of the bolt as a stationary piston until the action unlocks.

If you want to see real simple direct impingement, go look at a MAS 49/56 or a Hakim. End of gas tube, small pocket in bolt carrier, job done.
 
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